208 réponses à ce sujet

[Raging_Pulse]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Argh. Really? We're still stuck with not knowing what we're going to say? Can anyone confirm or deny this, please, since almost everyone seems to think we'll be able to see what we're going to say?

No, from the PAX videos it's clear that the additional text above the wheel is a clarification only.



EDIT: ninja'd.

Modifié par Domecoming, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:04 .

[The Elder King]

Having played DAO and DA2 (plus the ME IP) on console, I didn't see any advantage with the wheel in comparison of the list. Just my personal experience.

[abnocte]

May be it is because the options are orders, but seems that icons are gone.
No need for them if we get descriptions... too bad we don't get the full text.

[The Elder King]

abnocte wrote...

May be it is because the options are orders, but seems that icons are gone.
No need for them if we get descriptions... too bad we don't get the full text.

This is the action wheel, where you make decision. The tone wheel will be present, but in different situations.
In addition, there'll be a wheel where you can express different emotions (sadness, happiness, anger, etc.).

Modifié par hhh89, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[abnocte]

@hhh89

O_o

I didn't know about that. I haven't followed all PAX footage.

[The Elder King]

abnocte wrote...

@hhh89

O_o

I didn't know about that. I haven't followed all PAX footage.

This wasn't in the PAX. It was stated by Gaider months ago.

[Fast Jimmy]

abnocte wrote...

@hhh89

O_o

I didn't know about that. I haven't followed all PAX footage.

This was the only scene of dialogue shown in the entire demo, so this is the "only" wheel we've seen so far, though there is, in theory, the three different wheels hhh mentioned. We haven't seen how any of them really work in detail... but, again, the hover over doesn't seem to give a clearer description of exact words spoken (like in Deus Ex), but rather a clearer description of what the outcomes of the choice are. 

[abnocte]

Oh, ok.
I haven't been around that much, I don't want to spoil too much about the game.

This is a step forward then, I like the idea of actions being independent of personality/tone.

Thanks for the info.

[The Elder King]

@Fast Jimmy: while I personally don't think it's going to happen, the tone/emotion wheel might give a clearer description for what the PC will say. I don't think the action wheel necessary needs to say the exactl word, and what the Inquisitor said in the demo was practicall what was stated in the wheel (and for what I recall it was more respondent to the wheel than any dialogue in DA2). Though since it's one example it's not a confirmation that the action wheel will reflect all the time what the PC will say.

[Ieldra]

Cstaf wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Kind of a moot discussion since there is now an option in DA:I that shows exactly what your character will say word by word in a blurb above the dialogue wheel when you hover over a response.

Thats not true. It shows the general intent of the dialogue "this option will order your troops back to the Keep" or "this option will send your troops to defend the town" but it doesn't lay out the exact words you will use. 

Argh. Really? We're still stuck with not knowing what we're going to say? Can anyone confirm or deny this, please, since almost everyone seems to think we'll be able to see what we're going to say?

Afraid so. It's been my biggest disappointment of the information revealed so far (except perhaps the combat system reveal). When i first saw they had a "trigger" when hovering over a paraphrase i was extremely pleased. Been asking for this ever since Bioware made it clear  it's sticking with the paraphrasing system. Unfortunately it's simply a clarification of the consequences of the dialogue option which is something i am not very interested in using.

Well, then....you can expect a list of misleading paraphases from me some time after DAI comes out, as well as a list of instances where I would want to say something more specific but couldn't because the paraphrasing system forces dialogue lines to be more neutral (marketing speak for "having less content").

I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 septembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[Ziggeh]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system. 

Because it creates a more engaging experience for some methods of play, despite the issues of some others. 

Can they satisfy both groups? Possibly, but not without the cost of weakening the experience for at least some. 

How they decide which playstyle to focus on essentially comes down to personal preference.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 septembre 2013 - 10:20 .

[fchopin]

Ziggeh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system. 

Because it creates a more engaging experience for some methods of play, despite the issues of some others. 

Can they satisfy both groups? Possibly, but not without the cost of weakening the experience for at least some. 

How they decide which playstyle to focus on essentially comes down to personal preference.

Which can be easily fixed so both set of people are happy by hover over text but they are only using it for action sequences.

[Ieldra]

fchopin wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system. 

Because it creates a more engaging experience for some methods of play, despite the issues of some others. 

Can they satisfy both groups? Possibly, but not without the cost of weakening the experience for at least some. 

How they decide which playstyle to focus on essentially comes down to personal preference.

Which can be easily fixed so both set of people are happy by hover over text but they are only using it for action sequences.

Indeed. A hover-over you can switch off or on in the gameplay options would satisfy both sides without sacrificing anything.

[Kidd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, then....you can expect a list of misleading paraphases from me some time after DAI comes out, as well as a list of instances where I would want to say something more specific but couldn't because the paraphrasing system forces dialogue lines to be more neutral (marketing speak for "having less content").

I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system.

Just whatever you do, don't go full system critic armed with pen and paper while you're playing until your second playthrough. If you do that on your first, you'll likely take yourself out of the game experience big time.

As for the part about neutral lines being marketing speak for "less control," I'd say it doesn't at all seem to be that. It's seemingly more along the lines of not ruining your own character for you. You mentioned how you wanted to be thankful to Isabela but didn't like how Hawke added the moral quip without you asking her to - with a neutral response, you'd likely get the thanks without the extra flavour.

That action comes with extra flavour is a problem in both DAO and DA2 alike. The difference between the two is that in DAO you can tell what this extra flavour is right away, whereas in DA2 it could possibly surprise you. What I believe DAI is doing is separate said flavour from the decision itself, saving such flavours for reaction wheels and tone wheels instead.

Your inquisitor will say "Make it so" and only when asked later would you be able to say "I thought it was the right thing to do" / "I did it for the luls" / "I did it for money."

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indeed. A hover-over you can switch off or on in the gameplay options would satisfy both sides without sacrificing anything. 

Focus group testing showed that people think they want that option, but it actually lessens their enjoyment. At least, that's what I remember hearing. I could be wrong.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 06 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Ziggeh]

fchopin wrote...
Which can be easily fixed so both set of people are happy by hover over text but they are only using it for action sequences.

They're not doing that at all.

As I said, supplying both is an imperfect solution that would create additional problems: Given that option people are unlikely to use the paraphrase system as intended. 

They will choose the weaker cinematic experience because additional information of advantagious in game terms and not simply narrative.

We could argue, as we do for any toggle, that this is fine, provided it is our choice, but that is clearly counter to the design principles to which they work.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Ieldra]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Just whatever you do, don't go full system critic armed with pen and paper while you're playing until your second playthrough. If you do that on your first, you'll likely take yourself out of the game experience big time.

LOL. Thanks for the warning, but that's unlikely. It took me one year to get around to it for ME3, I don't think it'll take significantly less for DAI. And maybe....just maybe there won't be anything jarring me out of the game in my first two playthroughs, and I might dispense with it altogether. 

It is theoretically possible to create paraphrases that work. They would need to be longer, though, than they usually are. Giving me a dominant emotion is not enough.

As for the part about neutral lines being marketing speak for "less control," I'd say it doesn't at all seem to be that. It's seemingly more along the lines of not ruining your own character for you. You mentioned how you wanted to be thankful to Isabela but didn't like how Hawke added the moral quip without you asking her to - with a neutral response, you'd likely get the thanks without the extra flavour.

Oh, I understand the benefit. Neutral lines in general are good, as that example shows. But sometimes I want to say something specific, let's say there's a different situation where I want to give my line a moral angle. Will I be reduced to generic responses everywhere or will we have enough options to be more specific in selected important situations? That's what I meant with neutral lines necessarily having less content.

That action comes with extra flavour is a problem in both DAO and DA2 alike. The difference between the two is that in DAO you can tell what this extra flavour is right away, whereas in DA2 it could possibly surprise you. What I believe DAI is doing is separate said flavour from the decision itself, saving such flavours for reaction wheels and tone wheels instead.

Your inquisitor will say "Make it so" and only when asked later would
you be able to say "I thought it was the right thing to do" / "I did it
for the luls" / "I did it for money."

They haven't shown the reaction wheel yet . Quite possibly that will solve all our problems.... Hopefully we'll get to see it soon.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. A hover-over you can switch off or on in the gameplay options would satisfy both sides without sacrificing anything. 

Focus group testing showed that people think they want that option, but it actually lessens their enjoyment. At least, that's what I remember hearing. I could be wrong.

I can't plausibly reject such a claim without having experienced it. I guess it's possible. What I'm very sure I do want, however, is *complete* information about how my dialogue lines will influence the characterization of my protagonist. If there is no such influence, I'll probably be fine with a short paraphrase, as long as it gives me the gist of what followes. If there is such influence, I want to know all the relevant information in advance.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 septembre 2013 - 11:29 .

[zyntifox]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system. 

Because it creates a more engaging experience for some methods of play, despite the issues of some others. 

Can they satisfy both groups? Possibly, but not without the cost of weakening the experience for at least some. 

How they decide which playstyle to focus on essentially comes down to personal preference.

Which can be easily fixed so both set of people are happy by hover over text but they are only using it for action sequences.

Indeed. A hover-over you can switch off or on in the gameplay options would satisfy both sides without sacrificing anything.

Would undoubtly satisfy me. My biggest hurdle on whether i will purchase this title or not hinge on the dialogue system. If i have to constantly save and reload before and after conversations again as i was forced to in DA2 i probably won't play DA:I. Wich is a damn shame since i am really interested in the setting and lore of DA.

[Ziggeh]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can't plausibly reject such a claim without having experienced it. I guess it's possible. What I'm very sure I do want, however, is *complete* information about how my dialogue lines will influence the characterization of my protagonist. If there is no such influence, I'll probably be fine with a short paraphrase, as long as it gives me the gist of what followes. If there is such influence, I want to know all the relevant information in advance.

You have to also consider that dialogue is written differently for voice acting, and so the full written line would be more ambigious than otherwise because it lacks tone and inflection. The tone icon would help, but not completely. 

That would be fine within very specific playstyles in which intent and result wasn't of value, but less so for anyone else.

[fchopin]

Ziggeh wrote...

fchopin wrote...
Which can be easily fixed so both set of people are happy by hover over text but they are only using it for action sequences.

They're not doing that at all.

As I said, supplying both is an imperfect solution that would create additional problems: Given that option people are unlikely to use the paraphrase system as intended. 

They will choose the weaker cinematic experience because additional information of advantagious in game terms and not simply narrative.

We could argue, as we do for any toggle, that this is fine, provided it is our choice, but that is clearly counter to the design principles to which they work.

Why don't you give us your opinion and stop repeating what Mr. Gaider said.
Do you really believe what you said or are you just repeating other peoples ideas.

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, then....you can expect a list of misleading paraphases from me some time after DAI comes out, as well as a list of instances where I would want to say something more specific but couldn't because the paraphrasing system forces dialogue lines to be more neutral (marketing speak for "having less content").

It'll be difficult to prove that the italed case is caused by the paraphrasing. I often have incidents of that with the list system too.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 septembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Ziggeh]

fchopin wrote...
Why don't you give us your opinion and stop repeating what Mr. Gaider said.
Do you really believe what you said or are you just repeating other peoples ideas.

Why do you imagine I would have posted that if it wasn't what I believed to be the case?

[Hiemoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why Bioware is willing to accept these huge downsides for that thrice-damned paraphrasing system. 

Because it creates a more engaging experience for some methods of play, despite the issues of some others. 

Can they satisfy both groups? Possibly, but not without the cost of weakening the experience for at least some. 

How they decide which playstyle to focus on essentially comes down to personal preference.

Which can be easily fixed so both set of people are happy by hover over text but they are only using it for action sequences.

Indeed. A hover-over you can switch off or on in the gameplay options would satisfy both sides without sacrificing anything.

Except that's not completely true. If I recall correctly from Bioware's comments on the matter previously, there is also a presentation issue at the stake here. The interface is clearly designed for a certain purpose, be it a list or the dialogue wheel, and adding something additional like a possible floating text suddenly appearing at the top of the dialogue wheel would require a lot of effort to be operable. For example, notice that the Dialogue wheel does not occupy a dark space at the bottom of the screen. So if the text were to hover, it would need to be readable and understandable in all situations. How much of the screen space should it take over? Does it conflict with the visual presentation? These are all considerations which would require a great deal of effort to deal with, yet at the same time their own focus groups are telling them that text isn't what majority of people want. So why would they implement something like that?

Additionally, the paraphrases and intents allow them to map out the interaction a little bit longer along the discussion than simply showing a phrase that is exactly what is going to be said.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ziggeh wrote...

It's one key press versus scrolling through a list. Doesn't seem that major but economy of action is an important part of game design.

If that's the case, then they should let us hotkey everything.

[AlanC9]

I thought Ziggeh was talking about controllers there -- though if so he should have said "button press" (/nitpick)

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 septembre 2013 - 05:15 .