62 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight_Quack]

I don't know if this have been discussed, but I think I noticed a trend that at least for me, cheapens the narrative, that is that almost all evil mages are either possessed or dabble in blood magic. Can they be evil and important without resorting to either of this tricks? let's see a few examples:

In DA:O,Uldred, Jowan and Zathrian are blood mages and in Uldred's case, he is also possessed. No other mages of importance and evil are present.

In DA2 is where the fun starts, in that almost all mages encountered are either possessed or abominations, Idunna, Grace and Tarohne are blood mages, Marethari is possessed. Anders, in a rivalry path, will place the blame on Vengeance for blowing up the chantry! Special mention goes to Orsino, who out of the blue, will become a blood mage in his final moment. DA2 also gives us the equivalent of possession to warriors and rogues, which is Red Lyrium, affecting both Bartrand and Meredith.

All of these devices serve the purpose of watering down a character's conviction/resolution, in that "oh well, It is evil so he is obviously possessed/blood mage". Meredith, given her backstory, could have made the same actions without needing the whole red lyrium insanity. Frienship Anders doesn't blame Justice for his actions, but still is kinda an abomination, so was it really necessary for him to be possessed by Justice/Vengeance in order to carry his mission?

Also, while possession in most cases is evil, regarding blood magic there is a debate if it's really evil or just a tool. http://social.biowar...index/17193323. Regardless it obscures if the character was evil to begin with, or became evil because he chosed to be a blood mage, abomination.

I hope that DA:I can give us an evil important mage character that ISN'T possessed or utilizes blood magic. By doing that, they can give us more insight into the very flaws of human nature.

[Taleroth]

Jowan wasn't evil. When you're grouping being a blood mage with being evil, obviously you're going to cast a wider net.

[ArtemisMoons]

I think that many of the evil mages turn to blood magic because of the strength it offers. Plus, being able to control someone's mind is always an evil thing to do, so blood magic. xD
Essentially, they are no longer limited or afraid of what might happen with blood magic, so they use it.
That said, it would be interesting to see an "bad" mage who doesn't use it.

[crimzontearz]

The tevinter slaver mages were evil and not necessarily blood mages....

[Taleroth]

crimzontearz wrote...

The tevinter slaver mages were evil and not necessarily blood mages....

They were explicitly blood mages. They even talked about using the slaves for blood.

[Sifr]

Malcolm Hawke is a good example of a heroic Blood Mage, since he was forced into it by the Wardens to contain Corypheus and never used it again for the rest of his life.

It be interesting to see a Blood Mage who uses it for simply pragmatic reasons.

Run out of mana for spells in the heat of battle and just switch to Blood Magic to keep casting, and since Templars cannot dispell Blood Magic like they can Mana, this would allow them to face them with a full arsenal at their fingertips.

[crimzontearz]

Taleroth wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

The tevinter slaver mages were evil and not necessarily blood mages....

They were explicitly blood mages. They even talked about using the slaves for blood.

uhm.....I am drawing a blank

[esper]

Jowan wasn't evil, he was a fool and extremely unlucky - there is a difference.
I don't think Orsino was evil either, just... depressed, I guess, due to his sudden suicide.

And as people have said Malcom Hawke also knew blood magic.

[BraveVesperia]

I think that's probably because 'evil' is always associated with 'power-hungry', and the 'evil' character is presenting as having no inhibitions when it comes to methods.

I can understand why it would be easier to do this, but I'd like to see a villain that has certain things they won't do (doesn't need to be for a moral reason).

[Hellion Rex]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Malcolm Hawke is a good example of a heroic Blood Mage, since he was forced into it by the Wardens to contain Corypheus and never used it again for the rest of his life.

It be interesting to see a Blood Mage who uses it for simply pragmatic reasons.

Run out of mana for spells in the heat of battle and just switch to Blood Magic to keep casting, and since Templars cannot dispell Blood Magic like they can Mana, this would allow them to face them with a full arsenal at their fingertips.

Wait, didn't Evangeline dispel a blood mage's magic in Asunder? I thought that Templars could dispel blood magic, but it was just a lot harder to stop. 

And also, while not heroic, I would advocate that Merrill isn't evil. Not by a longshot.

[leaguer of one]

It's not a case were blood mages and abominations are evil. With the case with blood mages in da2 most were evil and dabbled in blood magic for more power. In cases like Merrill it's clear they are not all evil. As for abominations, it a case of the spirit they joined with going crazy with the emotions of the host. They are not evil, just that they don't know how to deal with the new environment.
With Wynne, she had no strong negative emotions to corrupt her spirit while Ander's hate for templars warped Justice to Vengeance. This also nearly happen to Wynne in da: Asunder.

[thats1evildude]

BraveVesperia wrote...

I think that's probably because 'evil' is always associated with 'power-hungry', and the 'evil' character is presenting as having no inhibitions when it comes to methods.

Yes, exactly. If you were the type of mage that could be clearly labelled as evil, why wouldn't you practice blood magic? Though dangerous, it's a reliable path to immense power.

[leaguer of one]

esper wrote...

Jowan wasn't evil, he was a fool and extremely unlucky - there is a difference.
I don't think Orsino was evil either, just... depressed, I guess, due to his sudden suicide.

And as people have said Malcom Hawke also knew blood magic.

Orsino was not evil ether.. Paranoid but not evil. He never was a blood mage till the end of the game. His only crime was hiding one.

[Hellion Rex]

leaguer of one wrote...

It's not a case were blood mages and abominations are evil. With the case with blood mages in da2 most were evil and dabbled in blood magic for more power. In cases like Merrill it's clear they are not all evil. As for abominations, it a case of the spirit they joined with going crazy with the emotions of the host. They are not evil, just that they don't know how to deal with the new environment.
With Wynne, she had no strong negative emotions to corrupt her spirit while Ander's hate for templars warped Justice to Vengeance. This also nearly happen to Wynne in da: Asunder.

Her spirit didn't warp though, did it?

[esper]

thats1evildude wrote...

BraveVesperia wrote...

I think that's probably because 'evil' is always associated with 'power-hungry', and the 'evil' character is presenting as having no inhibitions when it comes to methods.

Yes, exactly. If you were the type of mage that could be clearly labelled as evil, why wouldn't you practice blood magic? Though dangerous, it's a reliable path to immense power.

Well, my most "evil" chacter 'Rival Hawke' did not touch blood magic, mostly because even though she would have liked having more power the dangerous part simply weighed too much. If somebody found out she was doomed, and there was also the whole having to cut your own hand thing.

I could imagine another "evil" character written by bioware who have never learned it because they have to keep up an facade in front of someone, or an evil character who think that the dangers simply are too much and never learns it out off pure self presevations.

[Sifr]

eluvianix wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

Malcolm Hawke is a good example of a heroic Blood Mage, since he was forced into it by the Wardens to contain Corypheus and never used it again for the rest of his life.

It be interesting to see a Blood Mage who uses it for simply pragmatic reasons.

Run out of mana for spells in the heat of battle and just switch to Blood Magic to keep casting, and since Templars cannot dispell Blood Magic like they can Mana, this would allow them to face them with a full arsenal at their fingertips.

Wait, didn't Evangeline dispel a blood mage's magic in Asunder? I thought that Templars could dispel blood magic, but it was just a lot harder to stop. 

And also, while not heroic, I would advocate that Merrill isn't evil. Not by a longshot.

Need to get around to reading Asunder, I've been spoiled on the ending.

Merrill is heroic when she's not doing the Blood Magic thing, but when it comes to Demons and such, she's incredibly morally ambiguous, if not downright crazy. Wanting to give Feynriel to Torpor in the Fade, what?!

[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

It's not a case were blood mages and abominations are evil. With the case with blood mages in da2 most were evil and dabbled in blood magic for more power. In cases like Merrill it's clear they are not all evil. As for abominations, it a case of the spirit they joined with going crazy with the emotions of the host. They are not evil, just that they don't know how to deal with the new environment.
With Wynne, she had no strong negative emotions to corrupt her spirit while Ander's hate for templars warped Justice to Vengeance. This also nearly happen to Wynne in da: Asunder.

Her spirit didn't warp though, did it?

...Thanks to Cole and  Evangeline. If not for them it surely would.

[esper]

leaguer of one wrote...

esper wrote...

Jowan wasn't evil, he was a fool and extremely unlucky - there is a difference.
I don't think Orsino was evil either, just... depressed, I guess, due to his sudden suicide.

And as people have said Malcom Hawke also knew blood magic.

Orsino was not evil ether.. Paranoid but not evil. He never was a blood mage till the end of the game. His only crime was hiding one.

Yes, I mention him in my second line:lol:

Merrill count too in my book, but I know people differate. And then we have potential PC's.

[JediHealerCosmin]

I know this is off topic and I apologise for that, but I swear that the song by Diamond Head was playing in my mind while reading the title  

Carry on

Modifié par JediHealerCosmin, 05 septembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[Navasha]

Blood Magic is sort of the "Dark Side of the Force". It is the quick and easy way to get to vast power at least for mages. Evil in humanity is explored in other parts and factions of the game. In fact, I am pretty sure that every single faction in the game has some evil aspect to it.

[Sifr]

I always imagined that Orsino knew the theory of Blood Magic and was aware that Quentin's experiments involved some degree of necromancy, but wasn't aware he was killing to gain subjects.

My theory on why he went crazy in the endgame was because one of those apprentices killed was either his secret child or lover, something that Hawke nor Varric couldn't have known, hence why it appeared to come so far out of the blue.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 05 septembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[leaguer of one]

Sifr1449 wrote...

I always imagined that Orsino knew the theory of Blood Magic and was aware that Quentin's experiments involved some degree of necromancy, but wasn't aware he was killing to gain subjects.

My theory on why he went crazy in the endgame was because one of those apprentices killed was either his secret child or lover, something that Hawke nor Varric couldn't have known, hence why it appeared to come so far out of the blue.

So that fact that he and the rest of the mages were going to die any way  so screw it mind set is thrown out the window?

[Knight_Quack]

Jowan poisoned Arl Eamon and later tried to atone for his sins. I think him is more a case of I will stop using blood magic, therefore I cleanse my evil.

I didn't include Merrill because she is a good character who just happens to use blood magic.

Anyway my point isn't Blood magic/abominations are evil, but rather that once a character is established evil, he probably will be a blood mage / abomination, as if there aren't other choices.

Surely there are other paths other than blood magic for a mage to gain power: allies, controlling a whole lot of lyrium, money, etc. This is without taking into account the dangers of blood magic: a maleficarum is a bigger target to templars than an apostate.

[esper]

Knight_Quack wrote...

Jowan poisoned Arl Eamon and later tried to atone for his sins. I think him is more a case of I will stop using blood magic, therefore I cleanse my evil.

I didn't include Merrill because she is a good character who just happens to use blood magic.

Anyway my point isn't Blood magic/abominations are evil, but rather that once a character is established evil, he probably will be a blood mage / abomination, as if there aren't other choices.

Surely there are other paths other than blood magic for a mage to gain power: allies, controlling a whole lot of lyrium, money, etc. This is without taking into account the dangers of blood magic: a maleficarum is a bigger target to templars than an apostate.

He poisened Eamon with poison not blood magic, (and was btw, told by Loghain that Eamon was the evil one).

I also don't remember him stopping using blood magic (in fact he only used blood magiv one time and that was to save himself and Lilly).