62 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

Default Hawke is a blood mage, he ain't evul

Not as far as I know.

[d-boy15]

Sifr1449 wrote...

I always imagined that Orsino knew the theory of Blood Magic and was aware that Quentin's experiments involved some degree of necromancy, but wasn't aware he was killing to gain subjects.

My theory on why he went crazy in the endgame was because one of those apprentices killed was either his secret child or lover, something that Hawke nor Varric couldn't have known, hence why it appeared to come so far out of the blue.

Orsino knows about how far Quintin goes, he describe it as too evil before he gone mad.

Also, the real reason behind Orsino went batsh_t crazy is because Bioware need one more boss fight. 

[BraveVesperia]

Knight_Quack wrote...
Anyway my point isn't Blood magic/abominations are evil, but rather that once a character is established evil, he probably will be a blood mage / abomination, as if there aren't other choices. 

Surely there are other paths other than blood magic for a mage to gain power: allies, controlling a whole lot of lyrium, money, etc. This is without taking into account the dangers of blood magic: a maleficarum is a bigger target to templars than an apostate.

I'm afraid it looks like everyone would rather discuss whether or not blood mages are evil. Which is a shame, your original point was interesting.

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

I always imagined that Orsino knew the theory of Blood Magic and was aware that Quentin's experiments involved some degree of necromancy, but wasn't aware he was killing to gain subjects.

My theory on why he went crazy in the endgame was because one of those apprentices killed was either his secret child or lover, something that Hawke nor Varric couldn't have known, hence why it appeared to come so far out of the blue.

So that fact that he and the rest of the mages were going to die any way  so screw it mind set is thrown out the window?

Orsino turning into harvester was one of most stupid moments of da universe even devs didn't want him as boss but someone want 2 fights with boss in the end.His sacrifice was stupid (if you help mages) as hell he just make it harder for hawke and could kill other mages and hawke still managed win<_<.  

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Neither Jowan and Zathrian are evil. In fact, Zathrian made himself immortal (or make himself live longer anyway) using blood magic. I would love to see this explored more.

[Sifr]

leaguer of one wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

I always imagined that Orsino knew the theory of Blood Magic and was aware that Quentin's experiments involved some degree of necromancy, but wasn't aware he was killing to gain subjects.

My theory on why he went crazy in the endgame was because one of those apprentices killed was either his secret child or lover, something that Hawke nor Varric couldn't have known, hence why it appeared to come so far out of the blue.

So that fact that he and the rest of the mages were going to die any way  so screw it mind set is thrown out the window?

I meant in the Mage path, where his boss battle came out of nowhere and lacked any degree of common sense. At least as an apostate he'd be alive and at that point, Hawke's forces were winning!

Hawke coming to kill everyone he scares about in the Templar path at least I can see why he went crazy.

And I thought that he only realised the extent of Quentin's experiments after it came out he was a serial killer?

[Knight_Quack]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Neither Jowan and Zathrian are evil. In fact, Zathrian made himself immortal (or make himself live longer anyway) using blood magic. I would love to see this explored more.

Zathrian inmortality was tied to the curse that made werewolves, he was bent on making humans suffer even when the ones guilty of the crime were long dead AND his people were suffering because of the curse. He deceived his people by making them believe he was rediscovering the secret of long life of their ancestors.

[leaguer of one]

Knight_Quack wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Neither Jowan and Zathrian are evil. In fact, Zathrian made himself immortal (or make himself live longer anyway) using blood magic. I would love to see this explored more.

Zathrian inmortality was tied to the curse that made werewolves, he was bent on making humans suffer even when the ones guilty of the crime were long dead AND his people were suffering because of the curse. He deceived his people by making them believe he was rediscovering the secret of long life of their ancestors.

That makes one the antagonist, not evil.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Knight_Quack wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Neither Jowan and Zathrian are evil. In fact, Zathrian made himself immortal (or make himself live longer anyway) using blood magic. I would love to see this explored more.

Zathrian inmortality was tied to the curse that made werewolves, he was bent on making humans suffer even when the ones guilty of the crime were long dead AND his people were suffering because of the curse. He deceived his people by making them believe he was rediscovering the secret of long life of their ancestors.

Werewolves existed in Fereldan long before Zathrian, the only thing he did was simply make the Werewolves in the forest we explore.

And I still wouldn't call him evil, he still cares deeply for his people and after you beat him up does to give himself to cure everyone and even says "I've live too long". If he was evil he could have just let himself die and without curing the werewolves too. Personally, I feel sorry for him. Losing both your child and having one raped can really push peope to do mad things. He gave his life in the end to fix the wrong his done and so I respect that.

And lastly, for all we know the ancient elves used blood magic to keep themselves immortal. The chantry didn't exist back then and they still had all their lore back then, so I'm pretty sure elves could use blood magic without templars reigning down on them.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Knight_Quack]

1.- An antagonist can be evil, they're not mutually exclusive.
2.- While not 100% evil, Zathrian is clearly the villain (hence evil) in the werewolves vs. dalish storyline. That he reaches redemption at the end in one of the paths, doesn't change that fact.
3.- According to lore, all elves were inmortal, it was humans that caused elves to quicken (to age) and to die of natural causes.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Knight_Quack wrote...

1.- An antagonist can be evil, they're not mutually exclusive.
2.- While not 100% evil, Zathrian is clearly the villain (hence evil) in the werewolves vs. dalish storyline. That he reaches redemption at the end in one of the paths, doesn't change that fact.
3.- According to lore, all elves were inmortal, it was humans that caused elves to quicken (to age) and to die of natural causes.

1- Zathrian is not an antagonist, he is an optional antagonist.

2 - I could argue that the werewolve are the villain because they attack everyone who enters "their forest" as they claim and Swiftrunner wents to kill all elves regardless of who they are and Lady of the Forest has no problem hurting innocent elves to get Zatharian, and just Zatharian, to come to her.

3 - Yes because when humans showed up, they destroyed Arlathan and made the elves their slaves and formed the tevinter imperium.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 05 septembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[Karach_Blade]

Also, though this seemed to be retconned to pieces in DA2, remember that not every blood mage learns their craft from demonic forces.Its strongly suggested the Arlathan elves practiced non-demonic blood magic. Does it heighten the risk of becoming an abomination? Yes. Does it mean the caster is evil? Not by a long shot. I would love to see Bioware using non-blood mage villains.

[Maria Caliban]

Knight_Quack wrote...

Are you evil? Then you are a blood mage/abomination!

Templars were also evil. I don't recall blood mages sexually abusing or planning to lobotomize their charges.

[Vit246]

We already have a non-evil blood mage: Merrill.

[DarthLaxian]

Taleroth wrote...

Jowan wasn't evil. When you're grouping being a blood mage with being evil, obviously you're going to cast a wider net.

indeed the OP seems to be on a fishing expedition (i mean, the "problem" people have with blood-magic and its use have been discussed to death (there are those who think it is evil with no redeeming qualities and no "good" uses and there's the others that see it as a tool to be used))

as for "less possessed characters": that's got it's own thread already (and yes, i agree, i want no mindless "evil" enemies, i want ones that think and act because of goals (no: being evil does not count as a goal), desires and ambitions that they have and that start the conflict between them and my PC)

greetings LAX

[BlueMagitek]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Knight_Quack wrote...

Are you evil? Then you are a blood mage/abomination!

Templars were also evil. I don't recall blood mages sexually abusing or planning to lobotomize their charges.

Did you not pick up Fenris?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Nothing is evil on its own. t is just a thing or a being.

On its own blood magic is just blood magic. It is neither evil nor good. The same could be said for daggers, poisons, swords, bows, etc. They have no inherent ethical disposition.

A being or a thing is only assigned an ethical disposition when it interacts with someone.

The same goes for blood magic, mages and abominations.

[Kenny Da Finn]

I feel as though 90% of this discussion has been about whether blood magic makes you evil which is not what the OP was talking about. He is saying that most of the evil mage antagonists you fight use blood magic and why cant they just use regular magic instead. Why do most enemy mages default to Blood Magic?

[Medhia Nox]

Jowan is craven. In many ways his cowardice pulls him toward blood magic. Cowardice is a theme for blood mages.

Merril is a megalomaniac. She believes that her pursuit of elven wisdom (her own personal inflated relevance) justifies her use of whatever she wishes. Notably blood magic.

Nobody studies blood magic who is free of fear and/or arrogance. That is why most 'evil' mages use it.

Zathrian, Uldred, Orsino, Tevinter Slavers, Magisters, etc. etc.

[eye basher]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Knight_Quack wrote...

Are you evil? Then you are a blood mage/abomination!

Templars were also evil. I don't recall blood mages sexually abusing or planning to lobotomize their charges.

Did you not pick up Fenris?

i guess this guy didn't talk to Fenris much you know he explains how the magisters sacrifice people in the streets just for a laugh.

[DeathScepter]

damn it, now you are encouraging me to do a Blood Mage Hawke that is a hyprocite. And the Rival path, Ander admits that he was under the influence of Justice.

[Knight_Quack]

Kenny Da Finn wrote...

I feel as though 90% of this discussion has been about whether blood magic makes you evil which is not what the OP was talking about. He is saying that most of the evil mage antagonists you fight use blood magic and why cant they just use regular magic instead. Why do most enemy mages default to Blood Magic?

Thank you! Sadly People ITT seem to be arguing about the morality of blood magic (even though I provided a link to a topic that discusses exactly that), rather than why do evil mages resort to blood magic or possession to further his goals, as if there aren't any other alternatives.

Although to be fair, I should remove Jowan and maybe Orsino? from the list of evil mages, even though in Orsino's case, I included him because his heel face turn seems so sudden....and using, yep you guessed, blood magic,OH PLEASE!<_<

[Kenny Da Finn]

Knight_Quack wrote...

Kenny Da Finn wrote...

I feel as though 90% of this discussion has been about whether blood magic makes you evil which is not what the OP was talking about. He is saying that most of the evil mage antagonists you fight use blood magic and why cant they just use regular magic instead. Why do most enemy mages default to Blood Magic?

Thank you! Sadly People ITT seem to be arguing about the morality of blood magic (even though I provided a link to a topic that discusses exactly that), rather than why do evil mages resort to blood magic or possession to further his goals, as if there aren't any other alternatives.

Although to be fair, I should remove Jowan and maybe Orsino? from the list of evil mages, even though in Orsino's case, I included him because his heel face turn seems so sudden....and using, yep you guessed, blood magic,OH PLEASE!<_<

I think a lot of these kinds of threads get derailed into the morality of blood magic which kinda sucks because I found your original post very interesting.

On topic. I think that a lot of the main atagonists resort to blood magic because of it's inherent power and ease of use. It obviously isn't to hard to learn because of the fact that demons are consistantly trying to possess mages and have knowledge of blood magic. Other powerful magic is a lot harder to get information on as it seems that a lot of it has been lost with the opression of magic in thedas.

I would also note that everyone has a level of magical ability that comes from how much power they can draw from the fade. Blood magic however allows them to surpass this level by harnessing the power from other people and themselves. Considering antagonists are usually a step above regular mages it would make sense that they have either found a way to enhance their abilities (i.e blood magic) or they have inherently more power for example, dreamers. We havn't fought any of the second kind yet though.

In The Calling we have a different kind of antagonist which uses interesting magic but I won't say what  kind because I do not want to spoil it for anyone else.

[Vit246]

EDIT:nvm

Modifié par Vit246, 06 septembre 2013 - 05:51 .