74 réponses à ce sujet

[JCAP]

MDCT506 wrote...

I tend to see blood magic as a self-destructive kind of act. As a blood mage, you are trading blood and its vital life giving energy for power. If you want to get philosophical, there is a built in slippery slope where at the bottom power is more valuable than life. People with little regard for life can do some really crazy stuff.

It's also a shortcut for many mages. Instead of the study, dedication to the magical arts, and sometimes uncommon effort that many mages undertake to become powerful, blood mages take an easy path to power. They tend to skip the stuff that teaches... you know... responsibility.

Never mind the whole consorting with power hungry demos thing.

That's why most blood mages are crazy people who want you blood. They are spoiled with power and... we know the rest.

But surely there must be at least one bloodmage that isn't power hungry psycho. Look at the Jedi for example, they can be spoiled with power and turn to the dark side. But there are some who don't care either for the dark side or the light side. Like that neutral guy in SWKOTR (can't remember his name).

There must be some guy who is strong minded/willed and doesn't fall for the demon tricks and doesn't spoil himself with power. He only learned to use that power to use once .


Look at Hawke father for example.

[MDCT506]

wildkeny wrote...

MDCT506 wrote...

I tend to see blood magic as a self-destructive kind of act. As a blood mage, you are trading blood and its vital life giving energy for power. If you want to get philosophical, there is a built in slippery slope where at the bottom power is more valuable than life. People with little regard for life can do some really crazy stuff.

It's also a shortcut for many mages. Instead of the study, dedication to the magical arts, and sometimes uncommon effort that many mages undertake to become powerful, blood mages take an easy path to power. They tend to skip the stuff that teaches... you know... responsibility.

Never mind the whole consorting with power hungry demos thing.

Then the so-called "creation magic" is actually a kind of blood magic which exchange vital life with magic power and no one seems ****ing about it. By using "creation magic", you essentially alter the balance of the universe. If blood magic is forbidden, so should "creation magic" be.

True, but the source of magical power for creation magic doesn't need to suffer injury in the process.  You don't need to slit the throat of a human sacrifice in creation magic but blood magic just might need that kind of energy input. 

The balance of the universe is irrelevant to morality. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I miss Jowan.

[Mykel54]

You mean like Morrigan? Though she is still power hungry and only helps the warden for her own interests, so no the best example of selfless devotion.

[JCAP]

Mykel54 wrote...

You mean like Morrigan? Though she is still power hungry and only helps the warden for her own interests, so no the best example of selfless devotion.

Hawke father.

[Taleroth]

Mykel54 wrote...

You mean like Morrigan? Though she is still power hungry and only helps the warden for her own interests, so no the best example of selfless devotion.

Morrigan isn't a Blood Mage.

Modifié par Taleroth, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:39 .

[wildkeny]

MDCT506 wrote...

wildkeny wrote...

MDCT506 wrote...

I tend to see blood magic as a self-destructive kind of act. As a blood mage, you are trading blood and its vital life giving energy for power. If you want to get philosophical, there is a built in slippery slope where at the bottom power is more valuable than life. People with little regard for life can do some really crazy stuff.

It's also a shortcut for many mages. Instead of the study, dedication to the magical arts, and sometimes uncommon effort that many mages undertake to become powerful, blood mages take an easy path to power. They tend to skip the stuff that teaches... you know... responsibility.

Never mind the whole consorting with power hungry demos thing.

Then the so-called "creation magic" is actually a kind of blood magic which exchange vital life with magic power and no one seems ****ing about it. By using "creation magic", you essentially alter the balance of the universe. If blood magic is forbidden, so should "creation magic" be.

True, but the source of magical power for creation magic doesn't need to suffer injury in the process.  You don't need to slit the throat of a human sacrifice in creation magic but blood magic just might need that kind of energy input. 

The balance of the universe is irrelevant to morality. 

I think the extreme approaches that some blood mages used in their experiement is partially because performing blood magic is a public taboo and most of them are being isolated to be lack of other resources like lyriums or the help of other mages. Like in Jowan's case, he clearly stated that he couldn't have enough lyrium for the ritural so have to use a human sacrifice. Imagine if performing and researching how to properly use blood magic is allowed by the public, then such sacrifice is not neccesary since the magic power can be catalyzed by lyrium or by having more mages performing the ritual together. Blood magic may be too easy to initiate while hard to control but that doesn't mean it is inevitably evil.

[TK514]

I'm not sure Jowan's ritual is the best example here. He did have to kill someone to make it work, after all. If anything, it's just another example of blood magic being evil regardless of the desired outcome.  The road to Hell being paved with good intentions and so forth.

Modifié par TK514, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[Mr Cloud]

JCAP wrote..

2- I didn't want to prove you were "wrong" btw. But being "less alive" doesn't mean it isn't open to abuse. Sure, maybe a biotic can't do much damage like the other 2 examples but it is a dangerous power to deal with. Tell me, even if you were a trained soldier, would you pick up a fight with a biotic even if you could avoid it?

Why fight with anybody at all when I can simply avoid it? The same can be said about anyone: trained assassin, warrior etc. Any race (save for the asari) need to have implants inserted into their brains to even use biotics (and Red Sand gives temporary control of it, not even as strong as those who have natural talent for it. Plus you have to be exposed to eezo to find yourself capable), not to mention they need training to use them efficiently. So it's way less open to abuse

JCAP wrote..
3- Still not getting it.<_< Yes, blood mages attract demons (more or less compared with other mages I don't know). But it's more probable a bloodmage that learned from a demon being possessed by that same demon (as part of the deal) than some random demon. I don't know if it's even possible another demon possess some bloodmage that already struck a deal with another.

Well, Hawke does trick the demon in the Fade she had made a deal with, so it's not that final. Throwing probability aside, it's a risk nonetheless. Using blood magic tears Veil apart (it means that demons can actually pour into the "real world"). And, as you said, books that would allow to absorb arcanes of blood magic are rare, so would be the person that'd learn from them.

[Mr Cloud]

Taleroth wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

You mean like Morrigan? Though she is still power hungry and only helps the warden for her own interests, so no the best example of selfless devotion.

Morrigan isn't a Blood Mage.

You can make her one.

Modifié par Mr Cloud, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[MDCT506]

JCAP wrote...

That's why most blood mages are crazy people who want you blood. They are spoiled with power and... we know the rest.

But surely there must be at least one bloodmage that isn't power hungry psycho. Look at the Jedi for example, they can be spoiled with power and turn to the dark side. But there are some who don't care either for the dark side or the light side. Like that neutral guy in SWKOTR (can't remember his name).

There must be some guy who is strong minded/willed and doesn't fall for the demon tricks and doesn't spoil himself with power. He only learned to use that power to use once .


Look at Hawke father for example.

I'd be willing to be that there are a few, but that they'd be hard to find.  They also might not share the same kind of morality as a normal person. 

As far as the Star Wars analogy goes, there are Force users who use the dark side of the force for what they believe is the greater good.  Vader comes to mind.  His morality is brutal-minded and ruthless to most of us, but to him it's all part of a day's work.  

wildkeny wrote...

I think the extreme approaches that some blood mages used in their experiement is partially because performing
blood magic is a public taboo and most of them are being isolated to be lack of other resources like lyriums or the help of other mages. Like in Jowan's case, he clearly stated that he couldn't have enough lyrium for
the ritural so have to use a human sacrifice. Imagine if performing and researching how to properly use blood magic is allowed by the public, then such sacrifice is not neccesary since the magic power can be
catalyzed by lyrium or by having more mages performing the ritual together. Blood magic may be too easy to initiate while hard to control but that doesn't mean it is inevitably evil.

I'd agree that blood magic isn't inherently evil, or that evil is an inevitable result.  It does have moral pitfalls in it though and human nature can't easily avoid them.  At the very least, mage Warden and mage Hawke can make it work without becoming raving sociopaths, but they're pretty singular individuals. 

Modifié par MDCT506, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:57 .

[JCAP]

TK514 wrote...

I'm not sure Jowan's ritual is the best example here. He did have to kill someone to make it work, after all. If anything, it's just another example of blood magic being evil regardless of the desired outcome.  The road to Hell being paved with good intentions and so forth.

That depends on the victim. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a murderer to save someone else.

[TK514]

JCAP wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I'm not sure Jowan's ritual is the best example here. He did have to kill someone to make it work, after all. If anything, it's just another example of blood magic being evil regardless of the desired outcome.  The road to Hell being paved with good intentions and so forth.

That depends on the victim. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a murderer to save someone else.

atill evil.

[JCAP]

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote..

2- I didn't want to prove you were "wrong" btw. But being "less alive" doesn't mean it isn't open to abuse. Sure, maybe a biotic can't do much damage like the other 2 examples but it is a dangerous power to deal with. Tell me, even if you were a trained soldier, would you pick up a fight with a biotic even if you could avoid it?

Why fight with anybody at all when I can simply avoid it? The same can be said about anyone: trained assassin, warrior etc. Any race (save for the asari) need to have implants inserted into their brains to even use biotics (and Red Sand gives temporary control of it, not even as strong as those who have natural talent for it. Plus you have to be exposed to eezo to find yourself capable), not to mention they need training to use them efficiently. So it's way less open to abuse

Don't run away from the point. You said it yourself, it's open to abuse.

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote..
3- Still not getting it.<_< Yes, blood mages attract demons (more or less compared with other mages I don't know). But it's more probable a bloodmage that learned from a demon being possessed by that same demon (as part of the deal) than some random demon. I don't know if it's even possible another demon possess some bloodmage that already struck a deal with another.

Well, Hawke does trick the demon in the Fade she had made a deal with, so it's not that final. Throwing probability aside, it's a risk nonetheless. Using blood magic tears Veil apart (it means that demons can actually pour into the "real world"). And, as you said, books that would allow to absorb arcanes of blood magic are rare, so would be the person that'd learn from them.

Not that "rare", I imagine, I have no doubts that the Tevinter magisters have libraries full of them. Maybe that bloodmage I liked to see in the game got the hold on one of them? Maybe he was a magister? Use your imagination. 

Modifié par JCAP, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Mr Cloud]

JCAP wrote...

Don't run away from the point. You said it yourself, it's open to abuse.

But it's nearly impossible to abuse it, don't run away from that point.

JCAP wrote..

Not that "rare", I imagine, I have no doubts that the Tevinter magisters have libraries full of them. Maybe that bloodmage I liked to see in the game got the hold on one of them? Maybe he was a magister? Use your imagination. 

"(because books about blood magic aren't exactly easy to find)", you exact quote, so use some imagination yourself.

[JCAP]

TK514 wrote...

JCAP wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I'm not sure Jowan's ritual is the best example here. He did have to kill someone to make it work, after all. If anything, it's just another example of blood magic being evil regardless of the desired outcome.  The road to Hell being paved with good intentions and so forth.

That depends on the victim. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a murderer to save someone else.

atill evil.

Maybe, but here in Portugal, the Justice system is being so deficient that criminals are being released without spending a single year in jail. So forgive my coldly words.

[JCAP]

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote...

Don't run away from the point. You said it yourself, it's open to abuse.

But it's nearly impossible to abuse it, don't run away from that point.

I am a biotic. I go to a bar, and I don't like one group of batarians that are sitting there. With my powers, I pick them up and thrown them out of the window. Or I could bully them. If I was pure evil (or racist), I could smash them on the wall or thrown them a table. If this isn't abuse, I don't know what it is.

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote..

Not that "rare", I imagine, I have no doubts that the Tevinter magisters have libraries full of them. Maybe that bloodmage I liked to see in the game got the hold on one of them? Maybe he was a magister? Use your imagination. 

"(because books about blood magic aren't exactly easy to find)", you exact quote, so use some imagination yourself.

I doubt the magisters would share them with just some guy he doesn't even know. So they are rare outside Tevinter. But inside, someone who knows a magister maybe can get ahold of one. Or maybe not. Note the "", they are rare, but there are more than 10 ou 20 books in all Thedas I imagine.

Modifié par JCAP, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[Amberion]

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote...

So, I think it would be interesting to find a character that is a bloodmage, that learned blood magic for some reason (to make some ritual like Jowan does with Connor and his mother, for example), and is able to hold his temptations in check.

Uhm, Jovan didn't learn blood magic so that he could perform a blood ritual. He felt inferior to the Warden/potential Warden (it is presumed that all DA:O origins took place). Hence, he felt power hungry, it's as selfish as it gets.

While yes, comparing it to Force seems relevant, comparing it to ME's biotics is not. Biotics can be augumented through taking drugs and aren't alive, as is magic and force.

Few are able to resist demons' temptations and they are determined enough to possess ordinary mage. If one is, by any chance blood mage, it's even easier for them to appeal to such.

Jowan was at risk of failing his apprenticeship, and there were whispers(untrue) of him practicing blood magic. He had actually never practiced blood magic up until the point in the Mage Origin story when he was seen using blood magic to escape.

He used blood magic because he felt like he had no choice, that his success or failure as a mage had already been decided and that he was at risk of being made Tranquil. He was desperate and unstable.

The thing is, this is the ideal sort of person for demons to take advantage of. All it takes is a little crack in the armor, and a demon can work their way in. Jowan was a victim, but he had a hand in his own undoing.

[Mr Cloud]

JCAP wrote...

I am a biotic. I go to a bar, and I don't like one group of batarians that are sitting there. With my powers, I pick them up and thrown them out of the window. Or I could bully them. If I was pure evil (or racist), I could smash them on the wall or thrown them a table. If this isn't abuse, I don't know what it is.

I'm an assassin. I go to bar and I don't like one group of humans. With my guns I shoot them dead. Make a little nice hole in their heads. I can beat them down if I feel like it.

Biotics aren't the only ones that can do harm you know.

JCAP wrote...

I doubt the magisters would share them with just some guy he doesn't even know. So they are rare outside Tevinter. But inside, someone who knows a magister maybe can get ahold of one. Or maybe not. Note the "", they are rare, but there are more than 10 ou 20 books in all Thedas I imagine.

So why do you think mages turn to demons in order to learn blood magic? They don't learn it in advantage. They learn it from them because they feel desperate. Because situation demands it. That's why Merrill doesn't go to Tevinter to learn. That's why mages turn to demons, not to books, they simply don't have time. It's the easiest and fastest path.

[Eyerock]

I'm just gonna leave this here:

I think this pic is beautifully tragic.

[Mr Cloud]

Amberion wrote...

Jowan was at risk of failing his apprenticeship, and there were
whispers(untrue) of him practicing blood magic. He had actually never
practiced blood magic up until the point in the Mage Origin story when
he was seen using blood magic to escape.

He used blood magic because he felt like he had no choice, that his success or failure as a mage had already been decided and that he was at risk of being made Tranquil. He was desperate and unstable.

The thing is, this is the ideal sort of person for demons to take advantage of. All it takes is a little crack in the armor, and a demon can work their way in. Jowan was a victim, but he had a hand in his own undoing.

He flat out stated that he learned blood magic because he'd felt his power was inferior to Warden's.

And rumours started because he has been learning blood magic in secret.

Modifié par Mr Cloud, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[Amberion]

JCAP wrote...

MDCT506 wrote...

I tend to see blood magic as a self-destructive kind of act. As a blood mage, you are trading blood and its vital life giving energy for power. If you want to get philosophical, there is a built in slippery slope where at the bottom power is more valuable than life. People with little regard for life can do some really crazy stuff.

It's also a shortcut for many mages. Instead of the study, dedication to the magical arts, and sometimes uncommon effort that many mages undertake to become powerful, blood mages take an easy path to power. They tend to skip the stuff that teaches... you know... responsibility.

Never mind the whole consorting with power hungry demos thing.

That's why most blood mages are crazy people who want you blood. They are spoiled with power and... we know the rest.

But surely there must be at least one bloodmage that isn't power hungry psycho. Look at the Jedi for example, they can be spoiled with power and turn to the dark side. But there are some who don't care either for the dark side or the light side. Like that neutral guy in SWKOTR (can't remember his name).

There must be some guy who is strong minded/willed and doesn't fall for the demon tricks and doesn't spoil himself with power. He only learned to use that power to use once .


Look at Hawke father for example.

To use the Star Wars Force example, the light side is like the calm surface of water. You float to the surface without effort, and can remain afloat. This is analogous to retaining your balance of emotion. The dark side is more like a tumultuous storm, with an undertow pulling you under until you drown. It is emphatically NOT passive. People who fall to the dark side are overcome with the worst aspects of the deepest parts of their psyche. It's akin to mind control; Look at what happened to Jacen Solo. He became Darth Caedus after falling to the dark side fighting the Yuuzhan Vong. He was eventually killed by his own sister Jaina. He did some pretty despicable things as Darth Caedus, like killing Mara Jade.
 
I would not categorize falling to the dark side as being 'spoiled by power.' That implies that they have willingly chosen to fall to the dark side. I look on it more as a dark force overcoming their mind, twisting it into a cruel mockery of what it once was. You can pull yourself out of such a state, but it's hard. Very hard.

[JCAP]

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote...

I am a biotic. I go to a bar, and I don't like one group of batarians that are sitting there. With my powers, I pick them up and thrown them out of the window. Or I could bully them. If I was pure evil (or racist), I could smash them on the wall or thrown them a table. If this isn't abuse, I don't know what it is.

I'm an assassin. I go to bar and I don't like one group of humans. With my guns I shoot them dead. Make a little nice hole in their heads. I can beat them down if I feel like it.

Biotics aren't the only ones that can do harm you know.

Most places confiscate your weapons... And only in terminus systems is easy to acquire weapons... And before you say it isn't easy to get biotic amps, most (if not all) asari have them...

And a biotic could lift off those batarians with only one move, with weapons you would have to aim at one, shoot, and pray you were fast enough to shoot the others...

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote...

I doubt the magisters would share them with just some guy he doesn't even know. So they are rare outside Tevinter. But inside, someone who knows a magister maybe can get ahold of one. Or maybe not. Note the "", they are rare, but there are more than 10 ou 20 books in all Thedas I imagine.

So why do you think mages turn to demons in order to learn blood magic? They don't learn it in advantage. They learn it from them because they feel desperate. Because situation demands it. That's why Merrill doesn't go to Tevinter to learn. That's why mages turn to demons, not to books, they simply don't have time. It's the easiest and fastest path.

-------??????-------- So... we are talking about rubys and you start talking about diamonds?-------??????-------- 

Totally out of place, do you even know what was your point or you are so focused in proving me wrong of something?

Modifié par JCAP, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Mykel54]

Taleroth wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

You mean like Morrigan? Though she is still power hungry and only helps the warden for her own interests, so no the best example of selfless devotion.

Morrigan isn't a Blood Mage.

Of course she is, i suspect you just can´t read between lines, play DAO again and you will see. You don´t need some actual wrist cutting to tell that someone knows blood magic.

Modifié par Mykel54, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[Amberion]

JCAP wrote...

Mr Cloud wrote...

JCAP wrote...

I am a biotic. I go to a bar, and I don't like one group of batarians that are sitting there. With my powers, I pick them up and thrown them out of the window. Or I could bully them. If I was pure evil (or racist), I could smash them on the wall or thrown them a table. If this isn't abuse, I don't know what it is.

I'm an assassin. I go to bar and I don't like one group of humans. With my guns I shoot them dead. Make a little nice hole in their heads. I can beat them down if I feel like it.

Biotics aren't the only ones that can do harm you know.

Most places confiscate your weapons...

I think the point is that you don't need to have supernatural powers or special abilities to be dangerous. A man with a knife can be plenty dangerous. Evil is evil. The mechanics on how evil is accomplished is irrelevant.