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[Shadow Fox]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Warden can choose to spare Avernus and the Architect and give an amoral witch a god baby.

Those are worse then Hawke's screw ups.

Yeah, but the Warden can also CHOOSE to not do any of the choices you listed. That's the difference between the two. Hawke just plain screws up no matter what.

Outside of possibly releasing an Ancient Darkspawn Hawke's screw ups were marginal at best.

[d4eaming]

Hawke was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The whole point is that you can't stop all the bad things happening. I don't think he made them worse unless he was played specifically to make them worse. My snarky and nice Hawkes tried to prevent the worst of it all (nice Hawke being a warrior and siding with Templars, snarky being a rogue and siding with mages). The whole game is a deconstruction of the typical fantasy hero, and it's one of the reasons that I really love the game.

[d4eaming]

MasterScribe wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

Hawke was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The whole point is that you can't stop all the bad things happening. I don't think he made them worse unless he was played specifically to make them worse. My snarky and nice Hawkes tried to prevent the worst of it all (nice Hawke being a warrior and siding with Templars, snarky being a rogue and siding with mages). The whole game is a deconstruction of the typical fantasy hero, and it's one of the reasons that I really love the game.

That's an unnecessarily optimistic interpretation of DA2.

It is Varric's story, not Hawke's. Everything that we know about Hawke is through Varric, so it might all be lies (regardless of our actions). Our actions merely inform the version that Varric chooses to tell Cassandra.

On a separate note, BioWare had a very short development time, so it seems that they consolidated several different story ideas into one game. Any perceived "deconstruction" is probably unintentional.

Maybe it's not intentional, but I've heard the argument before and it makes sense to me. I don't need to always been the big damn hero so long as I have fun, and I had tons of fun with DA2 despite its flaws. (Then again, I wasn't offended by ME3's ending either, despite the game's glaring flaws that I happily acknowledge.)

[Vilegrim]

Beerfish wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TTTX wrote...

You forgot Hawke found the idol that made Merredith crazy which lead to the events that lead to the ending of DA2.

Which could've happened easily enough without Hawke's involvement. If he'd turned down Varric's offer, Varric could've found another relatively competent warrior.

A mere competant warrior might very well not have defeated the rock warith etc.  Competant warriors do not have a reload button.

Rock Wratih was after the Idol was taken, during Hawkes escape from the tunnels, all it settled was Hawke getting back, not the idol and it's owner.

[KiwiQuiche]

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

[Heimdall]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control =\\= dumb

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control == dumb

being unable to alter event when tallis stands two steps from hawke with qunari spies list = dumb
Being pawn to almost every character in main stroy = dumb

[Heimdall]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control == dumb

being unable to alter event when tallis stands two steps from hawke with qunari spies list = dumb
Being pawn to almost every character in main stroy = dumb

On the writer's part, certainly

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Aesir wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control == dumb

being unable to alter event when tallis stands two steps from hawke with qunari spies list = dumb
Being pawn to almost every character in main stroy = dumb

On the writer's part, certainly

Well hawke is this what writers wrote him he was always dumb no matter what you did.Hawke had own personality well three personalities we could only choose between them and they all were dumb and always failed in their goals.

So character can be poorly written but still is that character we seen.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 07 septembre 2013 - 11:10 .

[archangel1996]

The Warden is a Hero
Hawke is a glorified mercenary, yes they wrote him/her kind of dumb (Corypheus' and Anders' situations for example) but i think, overall, he/she's meant to be a "selfish" character that, in the end, cares about his/her people IMO

[TheKomandorShepard]

archangel1996 wrote...

The Warden is a Hero
Hawke is a glorified mercenary, yes they wrote him/her kind of dumb (Corypheus' and Anders' situations for example) but i think, overall, he/she's meant to be a "selfish" character that, in the end, cares about his/her people IMO

Well whether fits in hero part is up to you you could be di*** who doesn't care about anyone even alistair if his approval is -100 tells you that.

[Urazz]

Yeah, I'm going to be in agreement that Hawke was pretty much going to be more selfish and didn't want to be a hero. He/she wanted to advance in life and protect his/her family. He/She was to be the reluctant hero, nothing more than that. Of course there were instances of 'stupidity' from Hawke but I blame that more on the writers for writing the situations where Hawke was stupid than Hawke himself/herself.

I think Hawke pretty much was supposed to serve a point that you can't always change things. Hell, you might even make them worse. Big thing is that the events of Kirkwall would've happened regardless of Hawke's involvement or not. Hawkes involvement probably made some things much better in some circumstances, worse in others, or sped things up.

[Personality Disorder]

If one is attentive enough and willing to listen, the development team has described Hawke as a reactive protagonist numerous times. And this is what it all comes down to ultimately. The Warden was given a context and a point of entry into the world with a number of established conflicts: the Blight, Loghain, etc.; beyond that, however, he was given an opportunity to actually resolve them. Not just endure, not mitigate the damage and certainly not simply watch as they unfold, but change the world for the better.

Hawke, on the other hand, can boast of no such thing. His intent is mostly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Hawke does not cause things, instead, they happen to him. If this idea had been implemented better, Hawke could have ended up being a great tragic figure: everything he touched turned to dust despite any of his efforts. Alas, a lot of the situations made him look incompetent or downright stupid instead. That is why Hawke seems to do more harm than good: he just picks up the pieces after everything crashes and burns around him. It's a stark contrast to the hero that saves the day.

I also believe that this type of a protagonist is a horrible choice for an RPG as it robs the player of the actual impactful decisions within the game. It could have worked with a linear story-driven experience or in any other medium, but the very idea of a purely reactive protagonist in an RPG seems to be an ill-conceived one to me.

Modifié par Personality Disorder, 07 septembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control == dumb

Oh please, Hawke is stupid and typically stands around and let people murder each other all the time, or unleash  ancient darkspawn, let qunari spies skip off, or allow Sisters to ****** off Qunari. She's a failure of a hero.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 07 septembre 2013 - 12:26 .

[DarthLaxian]

Biotic Sage wrote...

than*

To answer the question, Hawke was supposed to be a catalyst for inevitable events, so I don't know if he did harm or good that wouldn't have happened eventually anyway.  It's a great setup for DA:I though!

indeed, Hawke didn't do much - he was used as an excuse by both sides of the war IMHO...the mages would have declared independence eventually (which is their right IMHO - even more so after what happened in "Asunder") and the templars would have tried a crack-down eventually, too!

greetings LAX

[Heimdall]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control == dumb

Oh please, Hawke is stupid and typically stands around and let people murder each other all the time, or unleash  ancient darkspawn, let qunari spies skip off, or allow Sisters to ****** off Qunari. She's a failure of a hero.

Your Hawke might have been.  Mine had no desire to be a hero at all, things just kept happening.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 07 septembre 2013 - 12:32 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yup, Hawke screwed up a lot and unleashed a crapload of nasty on Thedas.

She had the power and skill, but not the brains. A very bad combo.

Being unable to alter events outside her control == dumb

Oh please, Hawke is stupid and typically stands around and let people murder each other all the time, or unleash  ancient darkspawn, let qunari spies skip off, or allow Sisters to ****** off Qunari. She's a failure of a hero.

Your Hawke might have been.  Mine had no desire to be a hero at all, things just kept happening.

Pfft, that's the problem. For all of DA2 going on about becoming a champion and whatnot, Hawke falls flat on her face about everything, regardless of how you play her.

[archangel1996]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

The Warden is a Hero
Hawke is a glorified mercenary, yes they wrote him/her kind of dumb (Corypheus' and Anders' situations for example) but i think, overall, he/she's meant to be a "selfish" character that, in the end, cares about his/her people IMO

Well whether fits in hero part is up to you you could be di*** who doesn't care about anyone even alistair if his approval is -100 tells you that.

Touché
Still, at the end of the day the Warden is the Hero of Ferelden, the one who defeated the Blight, hero or anti-hero he still saved a whole nation....and we know that without him/her everything would have went down (Darkspawn chronicles)
Hawke is, i dunno, he/she just feels like the selfish kind of Shepard who cares only about his/her people with not as much character depth

[Maconbar]

Personality Disorder wrote...

If one is attentive enough and willing to listen, the development team has described Hawke as a reactive protagonist numerous times. And this is what it all comes down to ultimately. The Warden was given a context and a point of entry into the world with a number of established conflicts: the Blight, Loghain, etc.; beyond that, however, he was given an opportunity to actually resolve them. Not just endure, not mitigate the damage and certainly not simply watch as they unfold, but change the world for the better.

Hawke, on the other hand, can boast of no such thing. His intent is mostly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Hawke does not cause things, instead, they happen to him. If this idea had been implemented better, Hawke could have ended up being a great tragic figure: everything he touched turned to dust despite any of his efforts. Alas, a lot of the situations made him look incompetent or downright stupid instead. That is why Hawke seems to do more harm than good: he just picks up the pieces after everything crashes and burns around him. It's a stark contrast to the hero that saves the day.

I also believe that this type of a protagonist is a horrible choice for an RPG as it robs the player of the actual impactful decisions within the game. It could have worked with a linear story-driven experience or in any other medium, but the very idea of a purely reactive protagonist in an RPG seems to be an ill-conceived one to me.

I wouldn't want to primary rp characters like Hawke, but I enjoying playing a reactive, victim of circumstances type character. In terms of the story, I just didn't like the giant statues/crazy mages/crazy Templar element.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Warden can choose to spare Avernus and the Architect and give an amoral witch a god baby.

Those are worse then Hawke's screw ups.

Yeah, but the Warden can also CHOOSE to not do any of the choices you listed. That's the difference between the two. Hawke just plain screws up no matter what.

Outside of possibly releasing an Ancient Darkspawn Hawke's screw ups were marginal at best.

You forget about the scroll containing the list of Qunari spies, and Hawke did nothing as Tallis skiped on out of Orlais. That's a pretty big one as well.

[Brodoteau]

I think everyone forgets that all of Kirkwall is incompetent. The city guards are mired in bureaucracy that limit their effectiveness (even with Aveline). Meredith is a fascist dictator who is encouraging the mages to rebel through her strong-arm tactics. Orsino is corrupt (allowing blood magic), whiney and not an effective leader. The Viscount is ineffective and weak -- needing to hire outside mercenary help to solve even his own personal problems. Mother Petrice is actively fomenting rebellion. Even the Arishok would rather have his troops sit around a city for YEARS rather than ask the local authorities for help in a diplomatic manner. Hawke, therefore, is not ineffective but surrounded by incompetence. When he/she does react, he does do good (who else could have found the Tome, stopped the Arishok, found the White Rose Killer etc.).

In regard to Cory, how did Hawke know that he could switch bodies? Was he not supposed to defend him/herself when Cory attacked? Similarly, while he might not have killed Cory, he did kill Cory's "old body." The Warden's attack on Flemeth is less justifiable in many ways.

The fact that he/she survives all this and in doing so takes care of his/her family and friends doesn't make him selfish, it makes him caring. DA2 is an immigrant story. Hawke's number one goal is the survival of his family (and we can extend that to mean Varric, Aveline, Fenris etc.) and he does this very well if you take the time to cultivate relationships. Anders had become an abomination (I think his storyline is better if you rival him) and that what is supposed to make his betrayal harder to deal with (you thought there was hope for him and there wasn't).

[TheKomandorShepard]

archangel1996 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

The Warden is a Hero
Hawke is a glorified mercenary, yes they wrote him/her kind of dumb (Corypheus' and Anders' situations for example) but i think, overall, he/she's meant to be a "selfish" character that, in the end, cares about his/her people IMO

Well whether fits in hero part is up to you you could be di*** who doesn't care about anyone even alistair if his approval is -100 tells you that.

Touché
Still, at the end of the day the Warden is the Hero of Ferelden, the one who defeated the Blight, hero or anti-hero he still saved a whole nation....and we know that without him/her everything would have went down (Darkspawn chronicles)
Hawke is, i dunno, he/she just feels like the selfish kind of Shepard who cares only about his/her people with not as much character depth

To be honest conflict would be here if we want http://tvtropes.org/...lVersusOblivion warden could do a lot unnecessary harm just because he like it. For example merchant in lothering we could help him drive out crowd and after that he will offers money for that you can take it or just kill him because it is funny. Crap he could destroy relationship both dales just for fun or lie blacksmith his daughter is dead and he will hang himself and next blacksmith will ask you if you belong to former blacksmith family because he left things and you can lie that yes you are and take this.Warden could be chaotic-lawful evil agressive hawke was dark chaotic neutral at worst.   

[Taleroth]

Brodoteau wrote...

When he/she does react, he does do good (who else could have found the Tome, stopped the Arishok, found the White Rose Killer etc.).

He also slaughtered the resistance that was planning to take down Meredith and would have prevented the war.

Good job, Hawke.