158 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fake equality is no equality at all. It stinks.


How about we make takign a tank and taking a pistol equal?

A pistol is cheaper, easier to conceal,  easier to carry, and more useful in tight spaces. And doesn't destroy buildings when you only want to take out one guy. Voila, equal!

If balance is forced and fake it ruins immersion, gameplay and story segragation ruins it even further.

And yet Mage PCs can't blow up cities and Warriors can knock people down by yelling. They're fairly equal in their group roles. Equality is only "fake" when you lack imagination or are too strict on what equality means. Templars have an addiction problem, you know.

You're coming at this from the angle of "how can I make Blood Mages suck" instead of "how can I make all specs have interesting reactive content showing their darker elements." That's going to limit you a bit.

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 septembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

GabrielXL wrote...
In truth, I hope they do show in DA:I that Templars aren't the righteous do-gooders they would have people believe they are. Clearly there are some bad elements within their ranks who should be exposed for what they are. (This was expressed in Dawn of the Seeker) What's more, being Lyrium-addicted has to have some kind of dubious effect on them that hasn't been explored. Look at what it did to that jackass on the dock outside of the Circle Tower in Dragon Age Origins and to Meredith in DA2.

The views on templars and blood mages is not equal and shouldn't be equal.

Yes there are rotten templars, but the number of people who hate tempalrs are a drop in the ocean compared to people who hate blood mages.

Yes, Blood Mages are generally mistrusted by everyone, but the basis for that is found in Chantry dogma and the past actions of the Tevinter Magisters who (if you believe Chantry doctrine) set the stage for Mage persecution. Still, that doesn't mean that every Mage, regardless of discipline, should be instinctively persecuted.

You blame the dogma, but I say it's the cold, harsh reality of the world of TheDas.

Either way, it's not really relevant to the issue of properly portraying each specialization and giving it gravitas.
How would you go about it?
They didn't manage it in the first two games. So where does this trust come from that tehy will manage to do it in DA:I, despite all hte resources necessary for it?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Taleroth wrote...
 A pistol is cheaper, easier to conceal,  easier to carry, and more useful in tight spaces. And doesn't destroy buildings when you only want to take out one guy. Voila, equal!

Not even close.

If balance is forced and fake it ruins immersion, gameplay and story segragation ruins it even further.

And yet Mage PCs can't blow up cities and Warriors can knock people down by yelling. They're fairly equal in their group roles. Equality is only "fake" when you lack imagination or are too strict on what equality means. Templars have an addiction problem, you know.

You're coming at this from the angle of "how can I make Blood Mages suck" instead of "how can I make all specs have interesting reactive content showing their darker elements." That's going to limit you a bit.

No, I'm not going into thinking "how can I make blood mages suck".
Rather "how would people react to a blood mage"

And the answer is: Not good. Not good at all.
A blood mage requires special mechanics and content and quest resolutions.

[Tremere]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The views on templars and blood mages is not equal and shouldn't be equal.

Yes there are rotten templars, but the number of people who hate tempalrs are a drop in the ocean compared to people who hate blood mages.

Says you... The truth is that these are the only impressions that have been presented "to date". It's easy to claim precedence when the ignorant masses all agree and no counter argument is allowed, lest one be called a heretic. Judging by what we've seen of DA:I thus far, I think it's fair to say that apologists from all sides are in for a wake up call. Templars abandoning the Chantry... Seekers attacking Wardens... The more I think about it, DA2 did a fairly good job of preparing us for, as Flemeth put it, "The inevitable plummet into the abyss." Change is upon us... I just hope you aren't missing the signs, because you seem dead set on "being right".

You blame the dogma, but I say it's the cold, harsh reality of the world of TheDas.

Not blaming the dogma... It is what it is and as I said above, there has thus far been no argument to the contrary allowed or accepted by the masses. As the saying goes, "History is written by the victors" and it serves to justify their cause. The problem is, the Maker hasn't spoken to anyone and no one truly knows what Andraste meant in her statement concerning magic.

Either way, it's not really relevant to the issue of properly portraying each specialization and giving it gravitas.
How would you go about it?
They didn't manage it in the first two games. So where does this trust come from that tehy will manage to do it in DA:I, despite all hte resources necessary for it?

The truth is, I don't know how it's all going to play out, but if I consider DA2 and what I've seen of DA:I, I get the feeling that there are going to be a fair amount of shifts in people's perspective. The point I was trying to make in the beginning is that Mages have been instinctively reviled by the masses because of Chantry doctrine, but just calling something evil doesn't necessarily make it so. Mages have abilities that were given to them by the Maker's leave, so unless one believes that the Maker was in error, a major change is inevitable and none of us knows what that is going to be.

[Xilizhra]

You're still annoyed with multiple races, aren't you, Lotion?

[Huge_Beaver]

I hope they're afraid of me, not in a power-trip kind of way but afraid even though I'm trying to help them. Don't want them to over do it but it would be a nice touch.

[DarthLaxian]

might be nice if they are "rattled" by the PC (meanign they ask for things - even powerfull lords, because they fear the PC ^^ - not demand them)

as for "they were given their power by the maker":

well, does the maker exists at all? - there is no proof (even Andraste's Ashes don't count, because they could be a powerfull alchemical/magical-mixture, too!)

and then there is Sandal's Prophecy that "all" magic will return! (meaning: maybe everyone is magical and only some people are fortunate enough to have retained that? - maybe that's what caused the elfs to become mortal (the vanishing of magic at large)?...that might be something...elfs suddenly immortal again, everyone being magical....can you imagine the CHAOS (the chantry would be disbanded as no one would listen to liars anymore etc.)...that might be nice for a future game (or: during DA:I?))

greetings LAX

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're still annoyed with multiple races, aren't you, Lotion?

Wait, he is annoyed by multiple races?

[Tremere]

DarthLaxian wrote...

as for "they were given their power by the maker":

well, does the maker exists at all? - there is no proof (even Andraste's Ashes don't count, because they could be a powerfull alchemical/magical-mixture, too!)

This is the point I was trying to make, anecdotally. No one knows... So to proclaim that this or that is inherently evil is presumptuous at best and blasphemous at worst... Provided the Maker exists at all... and in what form. ;^)

and then there is Sandal's Prophecy that "all" magic will return!

greetings LAX

Maybe Sandal is the next Prophet! X^D *Hahaha!*

But this statement is another that seems to be overlooked. Sandal has clear moments of clarity and always seems to be in a place where "the hero" needs him. Odd huh? All that and he wipes out rooms of Dark Spawn too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You're still annoyed with multiple races, aren't you, Lotion?

Wait, he is annoyed by multiple races?

Nah, I'm annoyed by people living in the dreamworld, thinking that all the different races and specailization will be given proper depth and presentation, andcompletely ingoring the work and resource requirements to do even two.

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You're still annoyed with multiple races, aren't you, Lotion?

Wait, he is annoyed by multiple races?

Nah, I'm annoyed by people living in the dreamworld, thinking that all the different races and specailization will be given proper depth and presentation, andcompletely ingoring the work and resource requirements to do even two.

Well, humans tend to be the default and probably won't need that much specialized work done, so the three remaining shouldn't overtax Bioware with their extra year.

[PinkysPain]

Magic is already generally regarded as evil, non-humans are evil or at least should know their place as servants ... but blood magic is the place you draw the line?

Just use things like mage/race/blood magic/inquisitor as reputation modifiers ... with your inquisitor status being enough of a bonus that even blood magic isn't enough to get you killed on sight, just getting you glowered at and less likely to be treated as a hero.

You'd think that after two games the player could have proven to the world that blood mages aren't evil by definition ...

[septembervirgin]

People just glower at blood mages? How are serial killers treated in our society?

The Chantry ensures that blood magic is treated as a mortal crime. Most people see blood magic and think demons are going to eat me and they're going to come from that blood mage. I'm not exaggerating, the primary source of stories for people is trusted and held as solitary truth -- it's the Chantry. And what does the Chantry say about Blood Mages?

If your own child is a blood mage, you hope he runs far away and no one catches her. If your best friend is a blood mage, you wonder how evil hid under your very nose, posing as your friend. It's not like people are thinking that The Chantry teachings are relative; the very idea of social relativity is to us like the Chantry teachings are to the people of Southern Thedas.

It's not like the guy farts in public nor that he has a brand on his forehead saying Adulterer, he's a serial killer with a hidden AK. You just saw the AK. Now what do you do, scowl at him?

[Taleroth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
 A pistol is cheaper, easier to conceal,  easier to carry, and more useful in tight spaces. And doesn't destroy buildings when you only want to take out one guy. Voila, equal!

Not even close.

You're right. Pistols are overpowered. Which is why we have more of them than tanks.

[Xilizhra]

People just glower at blood mages? How are serial killers treated in our society?

People who kill multiple people just on their own? Badly. People who kill multiple people with government sanction trying to solve national problems? It varies, but often heroically.

If your own child is a blood mage, you hope he runs far away and no one catches her. If your best friend is a blood mage, you wonder how evil hid under your very nose, posing as your friend. It's not like people are thinking that The Chantry teachings are relative; the very idea of social relativity is to us like the Chantry teachings are to the people of Southern Thedas.

Not at all evident in DA2, where Anders and Fenris will both argue with Merrill, but they're not afraid of her, just dislike her magical specialization. And Aveline, Varric and Isabela all like her to varying degrees... and so do Bethany and Carver. Chantry doctrine has pull, but it's not the only thing, and it's not juniversal by any means.

[In Exile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nah, I'm annoyed by people living in the dreamworld, thinking that all the different races and specailization will be given proper depth and presentation, andcompletely ingoring the work and resource requirements to do even two.

It's not like dwarves need special content in their reaction. No one really seems to care about them all that much. Varric was fine as a stupidly wealthy merchant in a racist cesspoll, after all. 

It's being an elf and qunari that really matter, and I'd wager that Bioware only has a few cities we'd need to made into for people to react to our elveness or qunariness. 

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
People who kill multiple people just on their own? Badly. People who kill multiple people with government sanction trying to solve national problems? It varies, but often heroically.

I'm missing something in your analogy. Who is being sanctioned by the government? 

Not at all evident in DA2, where Anders and Fenris will both argue with Merrill, but they're not afraid of her, just dislike her magical specialization. And Aveline, Varric and Isabela all like her to varying degrees... and so do Bethany and Carver. Chantry doctrine has pull, but it's not the only thing, and it's not juniversal by any means.

I'm going to quibble with you on the Fenris point. I think he disliked Merrill. Not just because of BM, but because she left her people. He also seemed to really dislike the Dalish too, and what they stood for. 

[Xilizhra]

I'm missing something in your analogy. Who is being sanctioned by the government?

Soldiers. Obviously they don't have the same pathologies, usually, that serial killers do, but they do kill multiple people.

I'm going to quibble with you on the Fenris point. I think he disliked Merrill. Not just because of BM, but because she left her people. He also seemed to really dislike the Dalish too, and what they stood for.

True, Fenris is douchey enough to genuinely dislike Merrill, but he wasn't afraid of her.
Also, her people kinda forced her out.

[Tremere]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You're still annoyed with multiple races, aren't you, Lotion?

Wait, he is annoyed by multiple races?

Nah, I'm annoyed by people living in the dreamworld, thinking that all the different races and specailization will be given proper depth and presentation, andcompletely ingoring the work and resource requirements to do even two.

I'm curious... Are you a developer at BioWare? I ask because if this is the cause of your annoyance, then I'm inclined to think that you have knowledge of what it takes to build a game such as this. On the other hand, if you're not a developer for BioWare, then perhaps you give them less credit than they deserve. Maybe I'm just an optimist and thus inclined to think that with all the uproar over BioWares latest missteps (real or perceived), they'd feel somewhat compelled to get this one right. Surely there will be things that won't please everyone, but they have to know that once again drawing the ire of their fan base can't be a good thing. They obviously have creative license to do whatever they wish, but I'd like to think that they're set on proving that they did listen to their fans and are preparing to bring them (us), a game that is (as close to) everything they promised.

We fans can go back and forth over what we think they should do and what we think they're capable of, but at the end of the day, we can't know until the game is released... Obviously. If I have any hope at all for this game, it's that they find a way to put (at least some) old prejudices to rest, because what I see from the people of Thedas is that they'll hate, believe or embrace whatever is convenient at the moment. There is no real focus or purpose beyond what they think is important at a given moment and then they go right back to being the shallow folk that I think they are. Perhaps the Arishok was right all along. (There should have been an option in DA2 to side with the Qunari, but that I think that would have been too definitive of an ending.)

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Soldiers. Obviously they don't have the same pathologies, usually, that serial killers do, but they do kill multiple people.

I understand that part of the analogy. I meant, who in the DA setting are you thinking would have government sanction. Blood mages? That's where I was lost.

True, Fenris is douchey enough to genuinely dislike Merrill, but he wasn't afraid of her.

Also, her people kinda forced her out.

Right. I was just saying that Fenris is a jerk to her. 

And just arguing from his POV, to him, it's not the clan that threw Merril out. It's Merrill that did it to herself by not just acquiescing to what they want. One of the big things that screws him up is his lack of a home, family, etc. In his eyes, Merrill threw all of that away and he can't tolerate it.

Which makes it all the more ironic once he learns what he did as Leto. 

[Xilizhra]

I understand that part of the analogy. I meant, who in the DA setting are you thinking would have government sanction. Blood mages? That's where I was lost.

The Inquisitor. While it may not be direct government sanction, they're the guiding hand trying to fix the world, and everyone seems to fall in line with that, more or less.

And just arguing from his POV, to him, it's not the clan that threw Merril out. It's Merrill that did it to herself by not just acquiescing to what they want. One of the big things that screws him up is his lack of a home, family, etc. In his eyes, Merrill threw all of that away and he can't tolerate it.

Well, they were basically saying "stop practicing your life's work or GTFO," so it's not like it was unreasonable. I don't know why he dislikes the Dalish, but seems to be sour grapes.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Inquisitor. While it may not be direct government sanction, they're the guiding hand trying to fix the world, and everyone seems to fall in line with that, more or less.

I'm sure that's what we'll get. There's already an interview flowing around about racial choice that it'll be (conceptually) like the Warden. The problem with how DA:O handled it - and how I think DA:I will by design get around - is that no one had any reason to know/believe we were a GW in DA:O. In DA:I, it's obviously different since we have an actual organization.

Well, they were basically saying "stop practicing your life's work or GTFO," so it's not like it was unreasonable. I don't know why he dislikes the Dalish, but seems to be sour grapes.

I'm not trying to be accusatory. From Fenris' POV, having a safe home is worth anything. 

Fenris dislikes the Dalish, from what I've gathered, becuase he basically sees them as running away. He's not a fan of the isolationism and doesn't believe in "elven" culture in the way they do. And don't forget, he's bitter about everything because of his abuse. 

Modifié par In Exile, 15 septembre 2013 - 04:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Fenris dislikes the Dalish, from what I've gathered, becuase he basically sees them as running away. He's not a fan of the isolationism and doesn't believe in "elven" culture in the way they do. And don't forget, he's bitter about everything because of his abuse.

Running away. Like he did.

[Blackrising]

I do hope that there'll be some big consequences to being a bloodmage this time around. Playing a bloodmage never really interested me, but if people actually react accordingly, I might give it a try in Inquisition.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Running away. Like he did.

Yeah. Self-loathing is kind of his thing. He's really messed up about it. Trying to get a reason that "makes sense" instead of "makes sense to Fenris" doesn't work given his abuse. 

And plus, he's a hypocrate. Didn't you ever listen to him talk to Anders about mages and slavery?