158 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

GabrielXL wrote...
I say this mostly because of what was written about Blood Magic in DA2. Therein, it states:

Many see it as the only form of Magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons.

That line never made sense to me.

How is normal magic tied to favors to spirits or demons? It's not.
A sprit healer, I guess. But otherwise? No favors involved.

The most bothersome in my mind is the idea that Mages are fundamentally
more flawed than any other person with power. If absolute power corrupts
absolutely, does it matter what instrument/weapon the weilder uses? In
this sense, a sword or a spell makes little difference.

Of course they are. They have more temptations than a regular person.
Plus the whole possesion thing.

Power corrupts, but not all power is equal and not all power corrupts equally.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 septembre 2013 - 09:52 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
I say this mostly because of what was written about Blood Magic in DA2. Therein, it states:

Many see it as the only form of Magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons.

That line never made sense to me.

How is normal magic tied to favors to spirits or demons? It's not.
A sprit healer, I guess. But otherwise? No favors involved.

The most bothersome in my mind is the idea that Mages are fundamentally
more flawed than any other person with power. If absolute power corrupts
absolutely, does it matter what instrument/weapon the weilder uses? In
this sense, a sword or a spell makes little difference.

Of course they are. They have more temptations than a regular person.
Plus the whole possesion thing.

Power corrupts, but not all power is equal and not all power corrupts equally.

I agree on your first point. That line is kind of backwards. While it does focus on the physical, it has just as much affect on the mental and spiritual. I mean, it can let you read and influence minds, and tear the freaking veil.

[Tremere]

Seival wrote...

Blood Magic and Blood Mages should play very important role in DA:I. And I believe that BioWare should show this kind of magic from some positive perspective this time, even through it still looks dark and "evil".

I agree wholeheartedly. They should give some gravity to the argument that evil resides in men's hearts and is reflected in what, how and why they go about their business as they do.

[Tremere]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
I say this mostly because of what was written about Blood Magic in DA2. Therein, it states:

Many see it as the only form of Magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons.

That line never made sense to me.

How is normal magic tied to favors to spirits or demons? It's not.
A sprit healer, I guess. But otherwise? No favors involved.

The most bothersome in my mind is the idea that Mages are fundamentally
more flawed than any other person with power. If absolute power corrupts
absolutely, does it matter what instrument/weapon the weilder uses? In
this sense, a sword or a spell makes little difference.

Of course they are. They have more temptations than a regular person.
Plus the whole possesion thing.

Power corrupts, but not all power is equal and not all power corrupts equally.

Your first point is irrelevant, because this isn't a question about other schools of magic. The question is whether it is absolutely necessary for a mage to learn blood magic from a demon. By all accounts, the answer is no. By the same token and in reference to your second comment, what's to stop a Spirit Healer from being any less corrupt than a mage who practices Entropy? The point here is that singling out one school of magic for being inherently evil makes for a dubious assertion when every mage, regardless of discipline is believed to be inherently corrupt. What's more is that this assertion is based on religious dogma. It's stated as fact, but there's really no corroborating evidence outside of the belief of those who embrace those words. Even worse, it's founded by people who have no concept of what it is to be a mage and who will never know or have to face the type of temptation that they believe a mage faces all the time. What a kick in the teeth it must have been for Templars in DA2 to realize that they were just as susceptible to being possessed as a mage.

The chantry says that the Tevinter mages used blood magic in an attempt to usurp the Maker, but where is the proof of this? How do we know that it wasn't a Spirit Healer? Considering the fact they are watched with more vigilance than any other "authorized" discipline because of the nature of what they do, it's not out of the realm of possibility that some (perhaps well meaning) mage pushed the envelope too far. All you need to do is look at what happened to Anders to know that this could happen. If you recall, Fenris also [sarcastically] mentioned something along the line of, "...because nothing bad ever happens due to good intentions..."

And so what if not all power is equal. All power is subject to being exploited and thus capable of doing harm. The only question is how much and to what degree. If you're kicking someone in the ass "because you can", does it matter to the person being kicked if you're wearing sneakers or steel-toed boots? Perhaps to some degree, but at the end of the day, they're getting kicked, it hurts, and the source of the pain remains the person doing the kicking. The boots aren't kicking themselves.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 21 septembre 2013 - 10:11 .

[Tremere]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
I say this mostly because of what was written about Blood Magic in DA2. Therein, it states:

Many see it as the only form of Magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons.

That line never made sense to me.

How is normal magic tied to favors to spirits or demons? It's not.
A sprit healer, I guess. But otherwise? No favors involved.

The most bothersome in my mind is the idea that Mages are fundamentally
more flawed than any other person with power. If absolute power corrupts
absolutely, does it matter what instrument/weapon the weilder uses? In
this sense, a sword or a spell makes little difference.

Of course they are. They have more temptations than a regular person.
Plus the whole possesion thing.

Power corrupts, but not all power is equal and not all power corrupts equally.

I agree on your first point. That line is kind of backwards. While it does focus on the physical, it has just as much affect on the mental and spiritual. I mean, it can let you read and influence minds, and tear the freaking veil.

According to the lore and storylines, all magic has an effect on the mental and spiritual... It corrupts, so the point is moot. Entropy magic affects minds and bodies, but it isn't universally reviled like Blood Magic is. Spirit magic (Spirit Bolt, Walking Bomb) rends the target's spirit, infects others and causes the target's body to explode, and still it isn't reviled as Blood Magic is. On another note, what's to stop a man with a very large sword and a bad disposition from affecting the minds of people around him? He also relies on the force of his will to see things done as he wants, so what's the difference between him and a mage? Templars seem to do a fine job of terrorizing people in their own right.

In regards to the veil, large numbers of deaths in one area also weakens it... No magic needed, but people still keep fighting wars and killing each other in large numbers. How is that any different?

Modifié par GabrielXL, 21 septembre 2013 - 10:17 .

[Heimdall]

GabrielXL wrote...

The chantry says that the Tevinter mages used blood magic in an attempt to usurp the Maker, but where is the proof of this? How do we know that it wasn't a Spirit Healer? Considering the fact they are watched with more vigilance than any other "authorized" discipline because of the nature of what they do, it's not out of the realm of possibility that some (perhaps well meaning) mage pushed the envelope too far. All you need to do is look at what happened to Anders to know that this could happen. If you recall, Fenris also [sarcastically] mentioned something along the line of, "...because nothing bad ever happens due to good intentions..."

Blood magic was not watched in the Tevinter Imperium of old, or even the new if you believe Fenris.  It was practiced casually and old Magisters would often keep slaves on hand in their rituals to bleed them if they felt their own energies flagging.  The only information we have of the attempt to Storm the Golden City says that thousands of slaves and a third of the Imperium's Lyrium were used to provide the power for it.  Considering the cavalier attitude towards the practice.  There's no reason to think otherwise.

[Tremere]

Lord Aesir wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

The chantry says that the Tevinter mages used blood magic in an attempt to usurp the Maker, but where is the proof of this? How do we know that it wasn't a Spirit Healer? Considering the fact they are watched with more vigilance than any other "authorized" discipline because of the nature of what they do, it's not out of the realm of possibility that some (perhaps well meaning) mage pushed the envelope too far. All you need to do is look at what happened to Anders to know that this could happen. If you recall, Fenris also [sarcastically] mentioned something along the line of, "...because nothing bad ever happens due to good intentions..."

Blood magic was not watched in the Tevinter Imperium of old, or even the new if you believe Fenris.  It was practiced casually and old Magisters would often keep slaves on hand in their rituals to bleed them if they felt their own energies flagging.  The only information we have of the attempt to Storm the Golden City says that thousands of slaves and a third of the Imperium's Lyrium were used to provide the power for it.  Considering the cavalier attitude towards the practice.  There's no reason to think otherwise.

Noted and well taken. Evidently I missed this part of the lore. It does provide some clarity on this part of the question. For the sake of perspective, I'll need to hunt down the source, as I'm usually disinclined to accept anything the chantry has to say at face value. Not because I'm necessarily anti-Chantry... I just don't wholeheartedly embrace history that was written by the victors. Still, for the sake of fairness, if there is no other source (for or against), I'll be compelled to accept this version of the "truth".

[UPDATE] Having done some searching, it seems that the Tevinters knew of "a Golden City" that (according to David Gaider) was said to have been long abandoned by the Maker. This was due to mankind's switch to worshipping the Old Gods. If this is the case, then the idea that mages were attempting to usurp the Maker seems to be an exaggeration of the truth or at worst a complete fabrication. Now having said that, there are still some questions about what it was the Tevinters were trying to do and what it was they were looking for. Suffice it to say that as a result, things seem to have gone horribly wrong, "once the experiment, was taken out of the lab".

Modifié par GabrielXL, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[Tremere]

Back to the original topic... Should there be repercussions for a Mage who practices Blood Magic? My feeling is "not necessarily". With the world in DA: I being what we've seen, I can imagine there will be some who are (still) vehemently against it and others who are more pragmatic about it. It would depend on who's looking. I will say this though... If some of the lore I've read is any indication, the Chantry will have a lot to account for if their story turns out to be more contrived than factual. That in itself speaks to the corruptibility of mankind as a whole and in that sense a Mage (regardless of discipline), should be judged in the same light as any other person... By their deeds.

Push any person too far and they'll find a way to strike back. Threaten the power of any person or entity that has any and they will strike back.

Same difference.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 23 septembre 2013 - 10:29 .

[ramnozack]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
I say this mostly because of what was written about Blood Magic in DA2. Therein, it states:

Many see it as the only form of Magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons.

That line never made sense to me.

How is normal magic tied to favors to spirits or demons? It's not.
A sprit healer, I guess. But otherwise? No favors involved.

The most bothersome in my mind is the idea that Mages are fundamentally
more flawed than any other person with power. If absolute power corrupts
absolutely, does it matter what instrument/weapon the weilder uses? In
this sense, a sword or a spell makes little difference.

Of course they are. They have more temptations than a regular person.
Plus the whole possesion thing.

Power corrupts, but not all power is equal and not all power corrupts equally.

Meh, Mages dont call in favors to cast spells, thats just stupid, even if its in DA2 I wouldn't really trust it.