334 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

eluvianix wrote...

What solution would you advocate?

I don't know all the options possible as I don't know how things work in all the different nations. I would advocate representatives of the different nations, the first enchanters, the Chantry, scholars, and someone from any sane Templar/Seeker group to discuss the situation. It'll come down to the representatives of the nations in the end, and if a majority is satisfied with a solution that won't result in a world war, then go with that.

If nothing else can be thought of, then I'd advocate a return to the Circle system. Some reform would be good, though. Some international group does need to oversee it so that it has a kind of check and balance system, currently only the Chantry is able to fund such a project, but maybe the nations can fund a new one if people are really against the chantry taking that responsibility again even though Justinia was trying to find a middle ground.

Just my thoughts, could change tomorrow, but I'm trying to view this as Thedas as a whole and as an individual in Thedas, and while it is both a gift and a curse to be a mage, that very gift/curse forces mages to be unable to live a life as a non mage would.

[dragonflight288]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

What solution would you advocate?

I don't know all the options possible as I don't know how things work in all the different nations. I would advocate representatives of the different nations, the first enchanters, the Chantry, scholars, and someone from any sane Templar/Seeker group to discuss the situation. It'll come down to the representatives of the nations in the end, and if a majority is satisfied with a solution that won't result in a world war, then go with that.

If nothing else can be thought of, then I'd advocate a return to the Circle system. Some reform would be good, though. Some international group does need to oversee it so that it has a kind of check and balance system, currently only the Chantry is able to fund such a project, but maybe the nations can fund a new one if people are really against the chantry taking that responsibility again even though Justinia was trying to find a middle ground.

Just my thoughts, could change tomorrow, but I'm trying to view this as Thedas as a whole and as an individual in Thedas, and while it is both a gift and a curse to be a mage, that very gift/curse forces mages to be unable to live a life as a non mage would.

And what of the abuse of power? Put mages into the Circles to learn magic, that's all well and good. But would they be allowed to keep their families? What of the Right of Tranquility, Annulment? If those punishments remained, who would have the authority to order it? And would it not also be make sense that if the templars are put in charge again, that if an annulment is ordered, then the templars stationed there will also be killed to the last man, same as the mages? End the rot completely?

Don't take that suggestion seriously, but you won't find a single mage supporter, and most mages in-game, will never go back to the Circle system unless there is a completely radical reform. I've debated Lotion, and he outright refuses anything that isn't the current system, and has a tendency to ignore evidence that proves him wrong, writing it off as something that doesn't matter.

You seem like an intelligent person worthy of debating. So, to add on, if the Circle system was reestablished, what powers would the templars give up as a compromise for mages to return? And who'll be responsible for overseeing them?

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

What solution would you advocate?

I don't know all the options possible as I don't know how things work in all the different nations. I would advocate representatives of the different nations, the first enchanters, the Chantry, scholars, and someone from any sane Templar/Seeker group to discuss the situation. It'll come down to the representatives of the nations in the end, and if a majority is satisfied with a solution that won't result in a world war, then go with that.

If nothing else can be thought of, then I'd advocate a return to the Circle system. Some reform would be good, though. Some international group does need to oversee it so that it has a kind of check and balance system, currently only the Chantry is able to fund such a project, but maybe the nations can fund a new one if people are really against the chantry taking that responsibility again even though Justinia was trying to find a middle ground.

Just my thoughts, could change tomorrow, but I'm trying to view this as Thedas as a whole and as an individual in Thedas, and while it is both a gift and a curse to be a mage, that very gift/curse forces mages to be unable to live a life as a non mage would.

And what of the abuse of power? Put mages into the Circles to learn magic, that's all well and good. But would they be allowed to keep their families? What of the Right of Tranquility, Annulment? If those punishments remained, who would have the authority to order it? And would it not also be make sense that if the templars are put in charge again, that if an annulment is ordered, then the templars stationed there will also be killed to the last man, same as the mages? End the rot completely?

Don't take that suggestion seriously, but you won't find a single mage supporter, and most mages in-game, will never go back to the Circle system unless there is a completely radical reform. I've debated Lotion, and he outright refuses anything that isn't the current system, and has a tendency to ignore evidence that proves him wrong, writing it off as something that doesn't matter.

You seem like an intelligent person worthy of debating. So, to add on, if the Circle system was reestablished, what powers would the templars give up as a compromise for mages to return? And who'll be responsible for overseeing them?

I would argue that any group that oversaw mages would have to be comprised of both mages and Templars, to ensure fairness on both sides.

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

What solution would you advocate?

I don't know all the options possible as I don't know how things work in all the different nations. I would advocate representatives of the different nations, the first enchanters, the Chantry, scholars, and someone from any sane Templar/Seeker group to discuss the situation. It'll come down to the representatives of the nations in the end, and if a majority is satisfied with a solution that won't result in a world war, then go with that.

If nothing else can be thought of, then I'd advocate a return to the Circle system. Some reform would be good, though. Some international group does need to oversee it so that it has a kind of check and balance system, currently only the Chantry is able to fund such a project, but maybe the nations can fund a new one if people are really against the chantry taking that responsibility again even though Justinia was trying to find a middle ground.

Just my thoughts, could change tomorrow, but I'm trying to view this as Thedas as a whole and as an individual in Thedas, and while it is both a gift and a curse to be a mage, that very gift/curse forces mages to be unable to live a life as a non mage would.

And what of the abuse of power? Put mages into the Circles to learn magic, that's all well and good. But would they be allowed to keep their families? What of the Right of Tranquility, Annulment? If those punishments remained, who would have the authority to order it? And would it not also be make sense that if the templars are put in charge again, that if an annulment is ordered, then the templars stationed there will also be killed to the last man, same as the mages? End the rot completely?

Don't take that suggestion seriously, but you won't find a single mage supporter, and most mages in-game, will never go back to the Circle system unless there is a completely radical reform. I've debated Lotion, and he outright refuses anything that isn't the current system, and has a tendency to ignore evidence that proves him wrong, writing it off as something that doesn't matter.

You seem like an intelligent person worthy of debating. So, to add on, if the Circle system was reestablished, what powers would the templars give up as a compromise for mages to return? And who'll be responsible for overseeing them?

Personally I think the reformed Circle system should be run jointly by moderate templars and mages.Both will have some power but neither group can make decisions without the consent of the other,mages will be allowed to have families outside the Circle and can live in towns as long as they have proven themselves trustworthy.

[Daerog]

Well, how about three groups? One being Templars, one being the Circle, and the third being a mixture of Templars and senior mages. The third group responsible for activity outside circles, investigating rogue mages and hunting dangerous mages. The third group would also give consent for any Annulment deemed necessary by the Templars. The Templars work within the Circles, with the head of the Templars in a circle being in constant communication with the First Enchanter.

The third group can formulate overall policies, the Circles would form local policies, the Templars would enforce those policies. I'm not knowledgeable enough to go on a rant about what such policies would be or include.

Templars and mages who would join the third group have to be nominated by both the Templar group and Circle group. The third group having complete oversight over everyone (like the Seekers were supposed to), but only those being overseen can nominate people to join this third group, and has to have approval from both.

Just a quick thought. The problem is how would these people be funded? The Chantry was able to give a lot to the Circles, and I don't know how taxing the nations would be welcome.

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

What solution would you advocate?

I don't know all the options possible as I don't know how things work in all the different nations. I would advocate representatives of the different nations, the first enchanters, the Chantry, scholars, and someone from any sane Templar/Seeker group to discuss the situation. It'll come down to the representatives of the nations in the end, and if a majority is satisfied with a solution that won't result in a world war, then go with that.

If nothing else can be thought of, then I'd advocate a return to the Circle system. Some reform would be good, though. Some international group does need to oversee it so that it has a kind of check and balance system, currently only the Chantry is able to fund such a project, but maybe the nations can fund a new one if people are really against the chantry taking that responsibility again even though Justinia was trying to find a middle ground.

Just my thoughts, could change tomorrow, but I'm trying to view this as Thedas as a whole and as an individual in Thedas, and while it is both a gift and a curse to be a mage, that very gift/curse forces mages to be unable to live a life as a non mage would.

And what of the abuse of power? Put mages into the Circles to learn magic, that's all well and good. But would they be allowed to keep their families? What of the Right of Tranquility, Annulment? If those punishments remained, who would have the authority to order it? And would it not also be make sense that if the templars are put in charge again, that if an annulment is ordered, then the templars stationed there will also be killed to the last man, same as the mages? End the rot completely?

Don't take that suggestion seriously, but you won't find a single mage supporter, and most mages in-game, will never go back to the Circle system unless there is a completely radical reform. I've debated Lotion, and he outright refuses anything that isn't the current system, and has a tendency to ignore evidence that proves him wrong, writing it off as something that doesn't matter.

You seem like an intelligent person worthy of debating. So, to add on, if the Circle system was reestablished, what powers would the templars give up as a compromise for mages to return? And who'll be responsible for overseeing them?

Personally I think the reformed Circle system should be run jointly by moderate templars and mages.Both will have some power but neither group can make decisions without the consent of the other,mages will be allowed to have families outside the Circle and can live in towns as long as they have proven themselves trustworthy.

I agree. But before that happens, we the gamers would have to deal with the templar/seeker and chantry factions who fear mages so much that even visiting family members is worth a death sentence, they'll need to be eliminated, almost entirely. I hate to say it, but as long as those factions exist, a joint effort of templars and mages joining together for a greater good will be nearly impossible.

Granted, they'll always be individuals on both sides, but if the templars/seekers have entire factions that oppose it, the fighting will never stop, and as long as they try to force mages back to the status quo, the radical mage elements will fight back just as hard.

[dragonflight288]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Well, how about three groups? One being Templars, one being the Circle, and the third being a mixture of Templars and senior mages. The third group responsible for activity outside circles, investigating rogue mages and hunting dangerous mages. The third group would also give consent for any Annulment deemed necessary by the Templars. The Templars work within the Circles, with the head of the Templars in a circle being in constant communication with the First Enchanter.

The third group can formulate overall policies, the Circles would form local policies, the Templars would enforce those policies. I'm not knowledgeable enough to go on a rant about what such policies would be or include.

Templars and mages who would join the third group have to be nominated by both the Templar group and Circle group. The third group having complete oversight over everyone (like the Seekers were supposed to), but only those being overseen can nominate people to join this third group, and has to have approval from both.

Just a quick thought. The problem is how would these people be funded? The Chantry was able to give a lot to the Circles, and I don't know how taxing the nations would be welcome.

Funding would be easy, the same way the Circles are founded now. Enchantment.

The Tranquil at Ostagar tells the Warden that the Circle's don't get by on charity, and that the tranquil who run shops, handle enchantments, are the ones who provide the circle its wealth.

[cjones91]

I hope there's a option to kill the extremists on both sides or tell them to ****** off if you can form a alliance between the mages and templars.

[MisterJB]

I think people in this thread need to be reminded that the Circle was created with the idea of templars and mages keeping the other side's power in check in mind. For example, in order for a mage to be made Tranquil, this must be approved by both the Knight Commander; so non-magical interests are taken into account; and by the First Enchanter; so no innocent mages will be punished.
The problem here is that, as soon as one side becomes more powerful in one particular Circle, they begin to take advantage of their power in detriment of the other side. In Kirkwall, the Templars had much power which meant their abuses went mostly unpunished. In Tevinter it's the mages who have the power, so their abuses go unpunished.

Just keep that in mind.

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Well, how about three groups? One being Templars, one being the Circle, and the third being a mixture of Templars and senior mages. The third group responsible for activity outside circles, investigating rogue mages and hunting dangerous mages. The third group would also give consent for any Annulment deemed necessary by the Templars. The Templars work within the Circles, with the head of the Templars in a circle being in constant communication with the First Enchanter.

The third group can formulate overall policies, the Circles would form local policies, the Templars would enforce those policies. I'm not knowledgeable enough to go on a rant about what such policies would be or include.

Templars and mages who would join the third group have to be nominated by both the Templar group and Circle group. The third group having complete oversight over everyone (like the Seekers were supposed to), but only those being overseen can nominate people to join this third group, and has to have approval from both.

Just a quick thought. The problem is how would these people be funded? The Chantry was able to give a lot to the Circles, and I don't know how taxing the nations would be welcome.

Funding would be easy, the same way the Circles are founded now. Enchantment.

The Tranquil at Ostagar tells the Warden that the Circle's don't get by on charity, and that the tranquil who run shops, handle enchantments, are the ones who provide the circle its wealth.

Not to mention the Chantry steals money from the Circles which could support the opinion that they are a form of slavery.

[Daerog]

MisterJB wrote...

I think people in this thread need to be reminded that the Circle was created with the idea of templars and mages keeping the other side's power in check in mind. For example, in order for a mage to be made Tranquil, this must be approved by both the Knight Commander; so non-magical interests are taken into account; and by the First Enchanter; so no innocent mages will be punished.
The problem here is that, as soon as one side becomes more powerful in one particular Circle, they begin to take advantage of their power in detriment of the other side. In Kirkwall, the Templars had much power which meant their abuses went mostly unpunished. In Tevinter it's the mages who have the power, so their abuses go unpunished.

Just keep that in mind.

Ya, but maybe that was the problem. Only two groups.

Maybe if the system was split in three, two could keep one always in check.

Also, considering the story of the birth of the Circles, it was agreeable to mages back then, but it has gotten a bit off course in recent times.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

I think people in this thread need to be reminded that the Circle was created with the idea of templars and mages keeping the other side's power in check in mind. For example, in order for a mage to be made Tranquil, this must be approved by both the Knight Commander; so non-magical interests are taken into account; and by the First Enchanter; so no innocent mages will be punished.
The problem here is that, as soon as one side becomes more powerful in one particular Circle, they begin to take advantage of their power in detriment of the other side. In Kirkwall, the Templars had much power which meant their abuses went mostly unpunished. In Tevinter it's the mages who have the power, so their abuses go unpunished.

Just keep that in mind.

I know that,however mages had the short end of the stick when it came to being represented in the Circles.A reformed Circle system would allow them more freedoms while still having a say in how the Circle is run along with the templars.

[cjones91]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think people in this thread need to be reminded that the Circle was created with the idea of templars and mages keeping the other side's power in check in mind. For example, in order for a mage to be made Tranquil, this must be approved by both the Knight Commander; so non-magical interests are taken into account; and by the First Enchanter; so no innocent mages will be punished.
The problem here is that, as soon as one side becomes more powerful in one particular Circle, they begin to take advantage of their power in detriment of the other side. In Kirkwall, the Templars had much power which meant their abuses went mostly unpunished. In Tevinter it's the mages who have the power, so their abuses go unpunished.

Just keep that in mind.

Ya, but maybe that was the problem. Only two groups.

Maybe if the system was split in three, two could keep one always in check.

Also, considering the story of the birth of the Circles, it was agreeable to mages back then, but it has gotten a bit off course in recent times.

Well the Seekers were supposed to be that third group but Lambert had forgotten that and involved himself in templar affairs.

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Well, how about three groups? One being Templars, one being the Circle, and the third being a mixture of Templars and senior mages. The third group responsible for activity outside circles, investigating rogue mages and hunting dangerous mages. The third group would also give consent for any Annulment deemed necessary by the Templars. The Templars work within the Circles, with the head of the Templars in a circle being in constant communication with the First Enchanter.

The third group can formulate overall policies, the Circles would form local policies, the Templars would enforce those policies. I'm not knowledgeable enough to go on a rant about what such policies would be or include.

Templars and mages who would join the third group have to be nominated by both the Templar group and Circle group. The third group having complete oversight over everyone (like the Seekers were supposed to), but only those being overseen can nominate people to join this third group, and has to have approval from both.

Just a quick thought. The problem is how would these people be funded? The Chantry was able to give a lot to the Circles, and I don't know how taxing the nations would be welcome.

Funding would be easy, the same way the Circles are founded now. Enchantment.

The Tranquil at Ostagar tells the Warden that the Circle's don't get by on charity, and that the tranquil who run shops, handle enchantments, are the ones who provide the circle its wealth.

Not to mention the Chantry steals money from the Circles which could support the opinion that they are a form of slavery.

Well, yeah. But I'm looking at a new Circle system without the Chantry being in control. Instead, it's controlled by a coalition of mages, templars and a mage/templar group. Three factions playing checks and balances.

I also think the Chantry should lose all right to use the Rite of Annulment. At present, it can be ordered by any Grand Cleric if they deem a Circle irreedemable, and that priest may or may not ever set foot inside the Circle. Take away the power of punishment from the Chantry itself, and I believe the mages and templars will be on even footing.

[Daerog]

This is starting to get off topic though. This thread is about playing pro chantry or not, not Circle politics.

[dragonflight288]

True.

[LobselVith8]

Chari wrote...

Me surely. I'm sick of all this Chantry/Christian/Religion-phobia in the net
No matter who I play all my characters are either pro-Chantry, or Chantry-positive. Even the Dalish and Qunari
All races, religions and philosophies are important and majestic in their own way

The Chantry has nothing to do with Christianity. It's a fictional religion that some people despise for a myriad of reasons, including the history with the elves and the mages.

I can't imagine playing as a pro-Chantry character, especially given my penchant for elven and mage protagonists. Given the Andrastian Chantry's history with elves and mages (my Warden) and their stance on apostates (my Hawke), I can't envision helping an organization I strongly disagree with on so many levels. Especially if I have the opportunity to create a character who is one of the People.

[KingGunDragon]

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

[Eveangaline]

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Eveangaline wrote...

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

... So... how would you deal with another Uldred incident? No Templars, no oversight, just an army of abominations getting loose in the wild?

[Eveangaline]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

... So... how would you deal with another Uldred incident? No Templars, no oversight, just an army of abominations getting loose in the wild?

The mages can make their own oversight. You don't physically need a templar. After all, a warden with only wynn and morrigan in their party can solve the tower problem in dao.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Eveangaline wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

... So... how would you deal with another Uldred incident? No Templars, no oversight, just an army of abominations getting loose in the wild?

The mages can make their own oversight. You don't physically need a templar. After all, a warden with only wynn and morrigan in their party can solve the tower problem in dao.

And an Arcane Warrior build can do the Broken Circle quest solo on nightmare. We can't factor in gameplay quirks and considerations when discussing lore, can we? So saying that two or possibly three mages (who are just as susceptible to possession as any other) can or will even want to invoke something like the Rite of Annulment?

Mages aren't just people. They're walking time bombs who need oversight. Maybe not as restrictive as it had been in the past, but oversight is necessary when you've got a person who can light you on fire because you stared at them sideways.

[Hellion Rex]

Eveangaline wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

... So... how would you deal with another Uldred incident? No Templars, no oversight, just an army of abominations getting loose in the wild?

The mages can make their own oversight. You don't physically need a templar. After all, a warden with only wynn and morrigan in their party can solve the tower problem in dao.

I am as anti-circle as they come, but we still have a problem controlling the fallout if something goes wrong. We won't always have a warden, Wynne, or Morrigan to save the day.

[Hellion Rex]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

... So... how would you deal with another Uldred incident? No Templars, no oversight, just an army of abominations getting loose in the wild?

The mages can make their own oversight. You don't physically need a templar. After all, a warden with only wynn and morrigan in their party can solve the tower problem in dao.

And an Arcane Warrior build can do the Broken Circle quest solo on nightmare. We can't factor in gameplay quirks and considerations when discussing lore, can we? So saying that two or possibly three mages (who are just as susceptible to possession as any other) can or will even want to invoke something like the Rite of Annulment?

Mages aren't just people. They're walking time bombs who need oversight. Maybe not as restrictive as it had been in the past, but oversight is necessary when you've got a person who can light you on fire because you stared at them sideways.

While you are careful to make the distinction that mages are people, I can't help but feel that adding the "walking time bombs" bit does the opposite for your argument. It just dehumanizes them even more.

[Eveangaline]

eluvianix wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

KingGunDragon wrote...

Personaly I would restore the circle. Maybe give a bit more freedom to the mages. Like being able to have a family. I saw how it effect the familes when playing none mage hawks. . But my main change would be to have the inquisition as a thrid party that watchs over both sides and keeps the peace.

I'd say make circles self contained. Keep templars and the church out of it.

... So... how would you deal with another Uldred incident? No Templars, no oversight, just an army of abominations getting loose in the wild?

The mages can make their own oversight. You don't physically need a templar. After all, a warden with only wynn and morrigan in their party can solve the tower problem in dao.

I am as anti-circle as they come, but we still have a problem controlling the fallout if something goes wrong. We won't always have a warden, Wynne, or Morrigan to save the day.

But what exactly is the difference of "have a group of mages trained to deal with problems like this when they come up" and "have a group of non mages trained to deal with problems like this when they come up"