334 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Martyr1777 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Of course that begs the question of who regulates magic when the templar order is abolished.

Oh its safe to say the Templars will most certainly not be abolished just because of their seperation from the Chantry. You have to remember that the VAST majority of the population beleive what the chantry always taught that mages are dangerous and so are more likely to back the Templars then anyone else, especially when its mages vs tamplars.

If anything I think the Chantry loses alot more face and respect with the speration after all the years of the templars being the face of the populations protection. The Chantry just stands around and talks alot.

I think the general population of Thedas will start liking the Templars alot less when the templars start raiding their towns and villages hoping to find enough money for their lyrium fix.

Agreed. Especially with those red templars attacking people, as seen in the PAX demo. I believe the common people will have trouble distinguishing the two factions.

Just because thats what you saw, think about what you didn't see... Lets see, the veil it torn wide open, you think the number of mage possessions just went up? I'm thinking with the state of things the attrosity count will be pretty equal and mages still have the natural hated working against them and non-red templars will be seen even more as saviors.

What do you mean, "what I did not see"? I saw templars attacking a village using their red lyrium abilities. Pretty clear what was happening there. And did you not see the behemoth as well? I don't know if that's some kind of red lyrium abomination or what, but using those types of creatures certainly won't gain the common people's praise. And as for the "non" red templars, my point was that while the regular templars might not be doing anything wrong (yet), common people might have difficulty distinguishing between the two factions, especially after seeing the reds attacking towns.

Although, I will admit that the Veil will probably be blamed on the mages...as is everything that goes wrong in Thedas. <_<

[Daerog]

Well, mages have caused more problems for the world than Templars have...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

[Eveangaline]

If there's going to be control of the mages, it probably shouldn't be in the hands of a religious group that think mages made god go away.

[Hellion Rex]

Eveangaline wrote...

If there's going to be control of the mages, it probably shouldn't be in the hands of a religious group that think mages made god go away.

this.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

[Martyr1777]

eluvianix wrote...
What do you mean, "what I did not see"? I saw templars attacking a village using their red lyrium abilities. Pretty clear what was happening there. And did you not see the behemoth as well? I don't know if that's some kind of red lyrium abomination or what, but using those types of creatures certainly won't gain the common people's praise. And as for the "non" red templars, my point was that while the regular templars might not be doing anything wrong (yet), common people might have difficulty distinguishing between the two factions, especially after seeing the reds attacking towns.

Although, I will admit that the Veil will probably be blamed on the mages...as is everything that goes wrong in Thedas. <_<

I mean you are basing your thoughts on like 10-15 seconds of footage from a demo. You  need to think about what else will be happeneing in the game and story during the whole thing. I mean possession aside you really thing Adrian is going to be calm and 'fair' about how they fight? Please.

Back to the point, aside from the not being religious bit, this is why I'm not pro chantry... thanks to them they made things worse by trying to control the mages and not control the templars. They are stupid.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 10 septembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[budzai]

StreetMagic wrote...

Pro Chantry, but not Pro Templar.

I think I have to go with this. Really tempelars like crusaders.. they take this too far but I still can't go with the mages. Even when they were prisoned in the circle they still ****ed up...

[DarthLaxian]

budzai wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Pro Chantry, but not Pro Templar.

I think I have to go with this. Really tempelars like crusaders.. they take this too far but I still can't go with the mages. Even when they were prisoned in the circle they still ****ed up...

some of them did - but we don't lock up all people in the world, do we (and only let some out, after they have faced a trial that can (and often does) end with death and have otherwise proven their worth by adhering to our rules like slaves and being a good puppy (or shall i say puppet?)) - because, yes:

a lot of people in RL **** up, too (not only murderers but drunk drivers and such, too)

it is wrong to justify ones deeds by quoting the greater good and what could happen if you don't (and segregating an entire race of beings (mages are not normal humans, i agree on that) is still racism)

i could live/accept, that people demand mages live appart from the "normal" people - but then they have to give them land and send all mage-children there IMHO

greetings LAX

[DPSSOC]

i could live/accept, that people demand mages live appart from the "normal" people - but then they have to give them land and send all mage-children there IMHO

greetings LAX

isnt that basically the circle?

[Uccio]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

Yes. And there will be a rule of Order and Law by the Iron Fist of Tevinter Imperium. All of Thedas will be once more under the rule of Magister Lords.

[Daissran]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

I agree. After all that has happened there has to be a better system than the Circle. There has to be a middle ground or there will never be peace for the mages and templars.

Modifié par Daissran, 10 septembre 2013 - 12:58 .

[Ophir147]

Daissran wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

I agree. After all that has happened there has to be a better system than the Circle. There has to be a middle ground or there will never be peace for the mages and templars.

Not to bring politics into this, but does this argument remind anyone else of the 2012 American Presidential Election? More specifically;

Mitt Romney: We have a plan to balance the budget. It's pretty amazing.
Everyone: Wow! Ok, awesome... can you tell us what the plan is?
Mitt Romney: No... but we have one, and we can promise that we will use it to balance the budget if we are elected into office!

Claiming that a better alternative exists is a lot different from knowing of a better alternative, and hardly any basis to form opinions from.

The system sucks, but it's the only one that works, because the Circle boils down to a need for two things:

1) A way to protect civilians from the perils of magic, specifically blood magic and abominations
2) A place for mages to study magic in a safe (so much emphasis) and productive way.

The Templars and the Circle itself serves both of these necessities in a simple but effective way. I'd love to hear any alternatives you guys could come up with that would work better, but some things are out of the question;

- Forming a Tevinter magocracy where mages are allowed to police each other
- Allowing Mages to learn and practice magic freely (they are locked up as much for their own protection as they are for the protection of everyone else)

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

At this point, I don't think it's possible the status quo will ever be restored, despite what some of the most adamant templar-supporters may demand. The mages have been free and fighting for their lives for about two years now (give or take) and the templar order has various factions. That Red Templar group is really going to destroy the templars reputation among many people, and that big red-lyrium monstrosity of theirs shows one thing, if they are willing to use that then they are no different from mages who turn to demons. If that happens enough, the templar order, even the ones who remain loyal to the Chantry, will lose all credibility and may be as feared as mages generally are.

No, there is no returning to the Circles. All that can be done is a complete reformation of the entire system. And that means the Chantry and the templars loyal to them (as well as many templar-supporters) may be put into positions where they will be forced to grant mages a great many concessions that would have been unthinkable (to the Chantry and the templars at least) before the split...such as allowing mages to visit family members without it being considered a death sentence, or the right to keep their children when they're born, or even the right to join the army as soldiers for their country, or serve as healers in towns and cities.

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

At this point, I don't think it's possible the status quo will ever be restored, despite what some of the most adamant templar-supporters may demand. The mages have been free and fighting for their lives for about two years now (give or take) and the templar order has various factions. That Red Templar group is really going to destroy the templars reputation among many people, and that big red-lyrium monstrosity of theirs shows one thing, if they are willing to use that then they are no different from mages who turn to demons. If that happens enough, the templar order, even the ones who remain loyal to the Chantry, will lose all credibility and may be as feared as mages generally are.

No, there is no returning to the Circles. All that can be done is a complete reformation of the entire system. And that means the Chantry and the templars loyal to them (as well as many templar-supporters) may be put into positions where they will be forced to grant mages a great many concessions that would have been unthinkable (to the Chantry and the templars at least) before the split...such as allowing mages to visit family members without it being considered a death sentence, or the right to keep their children when they're born, or even the right to join the army as soldiers for their country, or serve as healers in towns and cities.

Personally I would see to it that the templars become a police force and the Chantry provides the funding,anyone can join but they must be fair minded and not bigoted zealots.Mages will be able to live in towns and villages with certain restrictions on the type of magic they are allowed to use.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

At this point, I don't think it's possible the status quo will ever be restored, despite what some of the most adamant templar-supporters may demand. The mages have been free and fighting for their lives for about two years now (give or take) and the templar order has various factions. That Red Templar group is really going to destroy the templars reputation among many people, and that big red-lyrium monstrosity of theirs shows one thing, if they are willing to use that then they are no different from mages who turn to demons. If that happens enough, the templar order, even the ones who remain loyal to the Chantry, will lose all credibility and may be as feared as mages generally are.

No, there is no returning to the Circles. All that can be done is a complete reformation of the entire system. And that means the Chantry and the templars loyal to them (as well as many templar-supporters) may be put into positions where they will be forced to grant mages a great many concessions that would have been unthinkable (to the Chantry and the templars at least) before the split...such as allowing mages to visit family members without it being considered a death sentence, or the right to keep their children when they're born, or even the right to join the army as soldiers for their country, or serve as healers in towns and cities.

I completely agree. If the Templars try to dominate the mages again, we will only have more rebellions. It will be a never ending cycle.

[DKJaigen]

Ophir147 wrote...

Daissran wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

I agree. After all that has happened there has to be a better system than the Circle. There has to be a middle ground or there will never be peace for the mages and templars.

Not to bring politics into this, but does this argument remind anyone else of the 2012 American Presidential Election? More specifically;

Mitt Romney: We have a plan to balance the budget. It's pretty amazing.
Everyone: Wow! Ok, awesome... can you tell us what the plan is?
Mitt Romney: No... but we have one, and we can promise that we will use it to balance the budget if we are elected into office!

Claiming that a better alternative exists is a lot different from knowing of a better alternative, and hardly any basis to form opinions from.

The system sucks, but it's the only one that works, because the Circle boils down to a need for two things:

1) A way to protect civilians from the perils of magic, specifically blood magic and abominations
2) A place for mages to study magic in a safe (so much emphasis) and productive way.

The Templars and the Circle itself serves both of these necessities in a simple but effective way. I'd love to hear any alternatives you guys could come up with that would work better, but some things are out of the question;

- Forming a Tevinter magocracy where mages are allowed to police each other
- Allowing Mages to learn and practice magic freely (they are locked up as much for their own protection as they are for the protection of everyone else)

A tevinter magocracy is an improvement of the current circle system. The problem is not defending mundanes from circle mages as some templar supporters claim but to defend the mages from all magical an supernatural threats and i believe mages have a vital role in this.  And the templars have none. We have never seen templars able to hold their own against demons ot true bloodmages who have their wits intacts. So its no suprise that they where corrupted by somebody offering them red lyrium.

The red templar problem is logical. From DAO we see how mages outside the circle have been manipulating and bribing the templars . Somebody simply took the next step. The circle was barely working the last thousand years needing an annulment of a circle each generation. It survived because their was no third faction that could become an danger to his house of cards. And now this enemy has emerged ad the entire system falls apart in an instant. I can no longer thrust the templar order anyway. they are drug addicts and since they are cut of from their fix they will follow anyone who can obtain that for them.

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

At this point, I don't think it's possible the status quo will ever be restored, despite what some of the most adamant templar-supporters may demand. The mages have been free and fighting for their lives for about two years now (give or take) and the templar order has various factions. That Red Templar group is really going to destroy the templars reputation among many people, and that big red-lyrium monstrosity of theirs shows one thing, if they are willing to use that then they are no different from mages who turn to demons. If that happens enough, the templar order, even the ones who remain loyal to the Chantry, will lose all credibility and may be as feared as mages generally are.

No, there is no returning to the Circles. All that can be done is a complete reformation of the entire system. And that means the Chantry and the templars loyal to them (as well as many templar-supporters) may be put into positions where they will be forced to grant mages a great many concessions that would have been unthinkable (to the Chantry and the templars at least) before the split...such as allowing mages to visit family members without it being considered a death sentence, or the right to keep their children when they're born, or even the right to join the army as soldiers for their country, or serve as healers in towns and cities.

Personally I would see to it that the templars become a police force and the Chantry provides the funding,anyone can join but they must be fair minded and not bigoted zealots.Mages will be able to live in towns and villages with certain restrictions on the type of magic they are allowed to use.

If you wanted the templars to be a police force, you would have to radically change their belief in their authority over mages by divine right a well as their recruiting methods, aka recruiting people with more martial skill and an unshakeable faith in what the Chantry says above those who have moral character (as a way to keep them from asking questions according to the templar codex.)

I would say that we need those with templar abilities to help police mages, not necessarily templars of the Chantry.

[Maria Caliban]

eluvianix wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I think the general population of Thedas will start liking the Templars alot less when the templars start raiding their towns and villages hoping to find enough money for their lyrium fix.

Agreed. Especially with those red templars attacking people, as seen in the PAX demo. I believe the common people will have trouble distinguishing the two factions.

The common people will huddle in their hovels and pray this passes before they all starve to death or are butchered. Between the mages, the Templars, the Orlesian civil war, and the demons running around, they're screwed until the Inquisition comes around. I suspect we'll be the only 'liked' group.

[Hellion Rex]

Perhaps put the templars under the authority of the sovereign nation?

[Hellion Rex]

Maria Caliban wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I think the general population of Thedas will start liking the Templars alot less when the templars start raiding their towns and villages hoping to find enough money for their lyrium fix.

Agreed. Especially with those red templars attacking people, as seen in the PAX demo. I believe the common people will have trouble distinguishing the two factions.

The common people will huddle in their hovels and pray this passes before they all starve to death or are butchered. Between the mages, the Templars, the Orlesian civil war, and the demons running around, they're screwed until the Inquisition comes around. I suspect we'll be the only 'liked' group.

I would agree, but if your character is a mage however, they might not be as inclined to accept the Inquisition's help.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps put the templars under the authority of the sovereign nation?

Somehow I think that would only end with sovereigns using the Circle to produce indentured mages for the army.  They already do to a limited extent.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps put the templars under the authority of the sovereign nation?

Somehow I think that would only end with sovereigns using the Circle to produce indentured mages for the army.  They already do to a limited extent.

Would that be such a bad outcome though?

[Martyr1777]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages caused pretty much all of the biggest problems in TheDas.

As for me, I'll do anything in the game to give the Chantry and templars more power and authority.
There must be a rule of Order and Law.

This cycle has to be broken. Surely there must be a better way to fix this problem than simply returning to the Circle concept. 

At this point, I don't think it's possible the status quo will ever be restored, despite what some of the most adamant templar-supporters may demand. The mages have been free and fighting for their lives for about two years now (give or take) and the templar order has various factions. That Red Templar group is really going to destroy the templars reputation among many people, and that big red-lyrium monstrosity of theirs shows one thing, if they are willing to use that then they are no different from mages who turn to demons. If that happens enough, the templar order, even the ones who remain loyal to the Chantry, will lose all credibility and may be as feared as mages generally are.

No, there is no returning to the Circles. All that can be done is a complete reformation of the entire system. And that means the Chantry and the templars loyal to them (as well as many templar-supporters) may be put into positions where they will be forced to grant mages a great many concessions that would have been unthinkable (to the Chantry and the templars at least) before the split...such as allowing mages to visit family members without it being considered a death sentence, or the right to keep their children when they're born, or even the right to join the army as soldiers for their country, or serve as healers in towns and cities.

I completely agree. If the Templars try to dominate the mages again, we will only have more rebellions. It will be a never ending cycle.

You all realize they wrote it this way. Its an impossible solution, but makes it eaily available as a plot device.

You cant give power back to the templars because the mages have had enough. You cant let the mages have freedom because the general populace fears them to much after ceturies of the chantrys teachings.

So you end up with a no win situation. But it sure makes for great storys if you like dark and realistic settings.