1220 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Steelcan wrote...

David is already going at it with his "argumentum ad populum"

Oh dear. Is that his modus operandi?

[Rawgrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

daveliam wrote...

tiktac wrote...

you seem to be under the impression that my issue in this thread is with bioware. it's not. they've done a half decent job with dragon age. my issue is with people like you, dismissing real social issues because os some fool notion that anyone asking for equal treatment is taking advantage of the creators that already gave them a scrap. 

Ding, Ding, Ding!

This!  100% this!

Bioware has been absolutely wonderful in their shifting views on this and I have full faith in the DA team!

Quite right. But the way they did it in DA2 affected the quality of the writing in a negative way. Its not unreasonable to ask that they keep equality, but execute it differently. For some reason, stating this point, is homophobic, oppressive, and biggoted.

You think DA2 would've been a much better written game if the LIs hadn't all been BI?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*rolls*

Just LMFAO

Romances aren't what made DA2 mediocre. It was the enviornments, story where your protagonist was a puppet on strings, railroading to the max, blantant LIES among other things. Romances? No. They weren't even a spec on the eye of what DA2 a disappointment.

2 percent better Might have added replay vallue for those of us that thought we might get a different experience if we played as a different gender.

[David7204]

I don't need a source for common knowledge. The overwhelming majority of people do not through a sexual crisis.

[daveliam]

Rawgrim wrote...

daveliam wrote...

tiktac wrote...

you seem to be under the impression that my issue in this thread is with bioware. it's not. they've done a half decent job with dragon age. my issue is with people like you, dismissing real social issues because os some fool notion that anyone asking for equal treatment is taking advantage of the creators that already gave them a scrap. 

Ding, Ding, Ding!

This!  100% this!

Bioware has been absolutely wonderful in their shifting views on this and I have full faith in the DA team!

Quite right. But the way they did it in DA2 affected the quality of the writing in a negative way. Its not unreasonable to ask that they keep equality, but execute it differently. For some reason, stating this point, is homophobic, oppressive, and biggoted.

I don't think that anyone really thinks this.  I think that, at least from my perspective, the issue comes when someone says that DA: O and/or ME 2 got it right because it was the most realistic.  The issue with that is that some players (always straight) get more options.  There is, sometimes (and I'm not saying from you), a suggestion that gay players should take what they get and like it because they are a minority and not the target audience.  That's the stuff that rubs me wrong.  Not the idea that the DA2 romances were not written well. 

[Former_Fiend]

David7204 wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I think today's society is too obsessed with definitions and labels. Gay, straight, bi. These ideas are inventions of the modern world's sexual politics, not ingrained laws of nature. Sexuality is much more fluid and complicated than three labels we slap on people or adopt to identify ourselves.

No, it really isn't.

It really is.

Taking into account three options- straight, bi, and gay, even though there arguably more or at least subsets of the three, it's complicated by one major issue; what someone identifies themselves as and what they actually are aren't necessariliy the same thing. 

People lie. They lie to others and they lie to themselves on every end of the spectrum. And they lie for a vareity of reasons. 

And it's not even just that people lie, but also that they don't always realize the full scope of their sexuality at that stage of their lives.

[Ryzaki]

David. are you here to discuss DA romances? You know the game series that you admit to having not played?

[andrew252]

This is almost like watching a wild fire that's trying to be put out, you just cant look away

[Steelcan]

eluvianix wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David is already going at it with his "argumentum ad populum"

Oh dear. Is that his modus operandi?

Our lord has many set tactics for his arguments, that is but one of many fallacies at his disposal

[ScarMK]

Ryzaki wrote...

David. are you here to discuss DA romances? You know the game series that you admit to having not played?

Mass Effect has romances and that's enough reason for him.

[Hellion Rex]

Ryzaki wrote...

David. are you here to discuss DA romances? You know the game series that you admit to having not played?

Tell me you are kidding...

[Ryzaki]

Rawgrim wrote...
2 percent better Might have added replay vallue for those of us that thought we might get a different experience if we played as a different gender.

Would've made it worse for me. I'm not fond of FemHawke's voice so I probably would've played through once or twice instead of the 4+ times I have, romanced Anders (and if he was the only m/m option I'd been BLEH). Did that and called it a day.

DA2 doesn't have alot of replayability for me outside the romances. And romances are not enough for me to play a 40+ hour game with a protagonist voice I dislike for. I'll replay the game with a character's voice I like though. But not for one I don't.

[Hellion Rex]

Steelcan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David is already going at it with his "argumentum ad populum"

Oh dear. Is that his modus operandi?

Our lord has many set tactics for his arguments, that is but one of many fallacies at his disposal

A pagan Old God, eh? I shall just have my Warden slay him..

[Rawgrim]

tiktac wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

daveliam wrote...

tiktac wrote...

you seem to be under the impression that my issue in this thread is with bioware. it's not. they've done a half decent job with dragon age. my issue is with people like you, dismissing real social issues because os some fool notion that anyone asking for equal treatment is taking advantage of the creators that already gave them a scrap. 

Ding, Ding, Ding!

This!  100% this!

Bioware has been absolutely wonderful in their shifting views on this and I have full faith in the DA team!

Quite right. But the way they did it in DA2 affected the quality of the writing in a negative way. Its not unreasonable to ask that they keep equality, but execute it differently. For some reason, stating this point, is homophobic, oppressive, and biggoted.

yeah i'm by no means saying da2's handling of it was perfect. but da2 was also not...finished so i kind of try to let it go a little bit. 

ideally, i'd like a wide range of li's of varying sexualities and gender identities. but given budget limitations and time constraints, i think playersexual li's or 6 li's so everyone gets an equal number is the best way to go. thing is, it's not that we want queer romances to be the entire game or whatever, it's that we feel kinda ripped off when we get one designated LI for our character and that's it. and then told to be grateful we got anything at all while straight players get a wider range of li's. bit insulting if you ask me.

Romances in games is still kind of new. Back in the day we didn`t get any at all. After that we got 1. So its not like straight people have experienced an abundance of romances in games either.

[David7204]

Former_Fiend wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I think today's society is too obsessed with definitions and labels. Gay, straight, bi. These ideas are inventions of the modern world's sexual politics, not ingrained laws of nature. Sexuality is much more fluid and complicated than three labels we slap on people or adopt to identify ourselves.

No, it really isn't.

It really is.

Taking into account three options- straight, bi, and gay, even though there arguably more or at least subsets of the three, it's complicated by one major issue; what someone identifies themselves as and what they actually are aren't necessariliy the same thing. 

People lie. They lie to others and they lie to themselves on every end of the spectrum. And they lie for a vareity of reasons. 

And it's not even just that people lie, but also that they don't always realize the full scope of their sexuality at that stage of their lives.

Okay? And? People lie about their income. Does that mean income is fluid and complicated? No. Your income is X amount of money, and that's the end of it. People lie about their weight. Their age. None of those things are complicated.

Modifié par David7204, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:03 .

[Hellion Rex]

ScarMK wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

David. are you here to discuss DA romances? You know the game series that you admit to having not played?

Mass Effect has romances and that's enough reason for him.

Maybe so...but how can you have not experienced the joys of Dragon Age? 'Tis blasphemy!

[werewoof]

greengoron89 wrote...

tiktac wrote...

you seem to be under the impression that my issue in this thread is with bioware. it's not. they've done a half decent job with dragon age. my issue is with people like you, dismissing real social issues because os some fool notion that anyone asking for equal treatment is taking advantage of the creators that already gave them a scrap. 

and with the video game industry at large, as well, but i've said my piece about that several times. 

The industry on the whole will cater to the largest and most profitable demographic the most. You already know what demographic that is.

i have made that exact point and explained why i find it problematic several times but as i said, my issue in this thread is with spoiled straight dudes throwing hissy fits over the possibility that someone else might want equal treatment in a dang video game. 

[Steelcan]

eluvianix wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David is already going at it with his "argumentum ad populum"

Oh dear. Is that his modus operandi?

Our lord has many set tactics for his arguments, that is but one of many fallacies at his disposal

A pagan Old God, eh? I shall just have my Warden slay him..

He is the one true messiah.  All shall hear his fallacious arguments about heroism and strong characterization

[Ryzaki]

eluvianix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

David. are you here to discuss DA romances? You know the game series that you admit to having not played?

Tell me you are kidding...

Nope.

ScarMK wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

David. are you here to discuss DA romances? You know the game series that you admit to having not played?

Mass Effect has romances and that's enough reason for him.

But I hate having a discussion with someone who has no idea wtf I'm talking about and then argues that it's not possible despite it having been done. I don't go on the Wticher forums when I haven't played the damn Witcher. (I played a hour of the second one and that dragon kept killing me and I went "f*** this")

[Orian Tabris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That's what happens when you accept more than one group.

If you have chocolate ice cream and vanilla and offer everyone some you don't get to complain about the people who have no issue eating both. Plus bisexual people will ALWAYS in any scenario end up with more options.

2/2/2  is the most even right?

Straight Male gets 2 females
Straight female gets 2 males
Bi female gets 2 females and 2 males
Bi male gets 2 males and 2 females
Gay male gets 2 males
Gay female gets 2 females

That's what happens when you're less picky. You get more options!

True. While you do get more options, it should not matter how even the romances are. As long as every straight male or female gets an even choice, it does not matter if one of them is not the preferred race, class or character.

Bisexuals should get last choice in who they can romance. The straight male and females are the ones who need a fair choice.

For me, I just think that it would be better if not every character could be romanced, no matter which race or gender you choose. Or else, there is no point in having different reactions from NPCs, based on your race. In fact, why would the NPCs even need to have different opinions? It helps with lore and immersion, having more than just bisexual companions, who don't rely on your actual character... the one they are supposed to fall in love with.

*facepalms* Just the bolded I just...*sigh*

Welp the following after the bolded is fair enough. I disagree with it and want everyone to be romanced by any PC becase the PC can be so wildly different. As for falling in love with your character I'm not seeing how them being for both genders makes that suddenly impossible.

And the lore arguement is ....what?

What I mean by the bolded, is that bisexuals - like everyone else - should have to deal with what they are dealt, instead of trying to please everyone, ignoring the fact that the game is a story, not a fanfic written by the players. Bisexuals will (or at least should) be willing to choose who they romance based on the available remaining options... not just have free range.

The lore argument? Lore as in, the fact that not every person in DA agrees with everyone else. That is, the point of having characters with different opinions, is to give the story some believabilty (and somewhere to go with a story).

[Hellion Rex]

David7204 wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I think today's society is too obsessed with definitions and labels. Gay, straight, bi. These ideas are inventions of the modern world's sexual politics, not ingrained laws of nature. Sexuality is much more fluid and complicated than three labels we slap on people or adopt to identify ourselves.

No, it really isn't.

It really is.

Taking into account three options- straight, bi, and gay, even though there arguably more or at least subsets of the three, it's complicated by one major issue; what someone identifies themselves as and what they actually are aren't necessariliy the same thing. 

People lie. They lie to others and they lie to themselves on every end of the spectrum. And they lie for a vareity of reasons. 

And it's not even just that people lie, but also that they don't always realize the full scope of their sexuality at that stage of their lives.

Okay? And? People lie about their income. Does that mean income is fluid and complicated? No. You're income is X amount of money, and that's the end of it. People lie about their weight. Their age. None of those things are complicated.

Sexuality is a lot more psychological, and can't be justly compared to those tangible objects.

[Mr.House]

daveliam wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

daveliam wrote...

tiktac wrote...

you seem to be under the impression that my issue in this thread is with bioware. it's not. they've done a half decent job with dragon age. my issue is with people like you, dismissing real social issues because os some fool notion that anyone asking for equal treatment is taking advantage of the creators that already gave them a scrap. 

Ding, Ding, Ding!

This!  100% this!

Bioware has been absolutely wonderful in their shifting views on this and I have full faith in the DA team!

Quite right. But the way they did it in DA2 affected the quality of the writing in a negative way. Its not unreasonable to ask that they keep equality, but execute it differently. For some reason, stating this point, is homophobic, oppressive, and biggoted.

I don't think that anyone really thinks this.  I think that, at least from my perspective, the issue comes when someone says that DA: O and/or ME 2 got it right because it was the most realistic.  The issue with that is that some players (always straight) get more options.  There is, sometimes (and I'm not saying from you), a suggestion that gay players should take what they get and like it because they are a minority and not the target audience.  That's the stuff that rubs me wrong.  Not the idea that the DA2 romances were not written well. 

Plantiff does.

[ScarMK]

Ryzaki wrote...

But I hate having a discussion with someone who has no idea wtf I'm talking about and then argues that it's not possible despite it having been done. I don't go on the Wticher forums when I haven't played the damn Witcher. (I played a hour of the second one and that dragon kept killing me and I went "f*** this")

I'm not justifying his actions.  I'm just telling you how he thinks.

Modifié par ScarMK, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:04 .