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[leaguer of one]

Statare wrote...



I agree. Mages seemed more crazy than the templars in DAII. Especially because we have two pro-mage companions and no real pro-templar characrers besides borring old Sebastian. 

Do you not listen to Fenris talk?

[Statare]

leaguer of one wrote...

Statare wrote...



I agree. Mages seemed more crazy than the templars in DAII. Especially because we have two pro-mage companions and no real pro-templar characrers besides borring old Sebastian. 

Do you not listen to Fenris talk?

I did. But he is less pro-templar and more anti-mage (and justifyably so considering his past). There is a slight difference even if they end up agreeing at the end (he's not actively oppressing mages, he's struggling against the crazy ones in his life). I more meant we needed someone involved with the templars directly and make as many bad decisions ans Merrill or Anders.

Does that make more sense? Sorry for the confusion.

Modifié par Statare, 07 septembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[Mykel54]

I agree with the sentiment that mages were depicted worse than mages in DA2. For me the choice was between reasonable templars who are facing off agaisnt rogue blood mages. The only reasonable character i could play was one who sided with the templars, but sided with innocent circle mages whenever possible, trying to make their lot in the circle better (where Bethany was) by working with Meredith.

I even detest weak mages like Alain without the backbone to stand up for what they believe, allowing or resorting to blood magic even if they know it is forbidden. In DA2 when you give a mage a chance, you end up regretting it because they attack you (Grace) or do something terrible (Anders), or both (Orsino, plus killing your mom).

Even in DAO mages tend to betray me no matter what! Wynne walked out on me for defiling some ashes, and Morrigan blackmailed the hell out of me in order to make an old god, naturally my warden refused and she left. So in the end i had to kill the archdemon with no mages.

This is why i plan to play a mage in DAI, so no more mage troubles for me.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Mykel54 wrote...



Even in DAO mages tend to betray me no matter what! Wynne walked out on me for defiling some ashes, and Morrigan blackmailed the hell out of me in order to make an old god, naturally my warden refused and she left. So in the end i had to kill the archdemon with no mages.

Alistair walks out on you if pick Loghain to be Warden, Shale attacks if you side with Branka, Leliana attacks you too if you defile the ashes or leaves if you can't fool her at camp and Zevran attacks you with Talisman if you don't have +25 approval. Wynne betraying had nothing to do with her being a mage.

Besides, Wynne joined you on her own free will so it isn't betrayal if she decides that you're a monster and she doesn't want to hang out with you.

Also, I don't remember any blackmailing from Morrigan......

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 07 septembre 2013 - 06:53 .

[leaguer of one]

Mykel54 wrote...

I agree with the sentiment that mages were depicted worse than mages in DA2. For me the choice was between reasonable templars who are facing off agaisnt rogue blood mages. The only reasonable character i could play was one who sided with the templars, but sided with innocent circle mages whenever possible, trying to make their lot in the circle better (where Bethany was) by working with Meredith.

I even detest weak mages like Alain without the backbone to stand up for what they believe, allowing or resorting to blood magic even if they know it is forbidden. In DA2 when you give a mage a chance, you end up regretting it because they attack you (Grace) or do something terrible (Anders), or both (Orsino, plus killing your mom).

Even in DAO mages tend to betray me no matter what! Wynne walked out on me for defiling some ashes, and Morrigan blackmailed the hell out of me in order to make an old god, naturally my warden refused and she left. So in the end i had to kill the archdemon with no mages.

This is why i plan to play a mage in DAI, so no more mage troubles for me.

1. Orsino did not kill you mom or help kill her. All he did was help hide the killer from the templars.
2.You did something bad and you upset because Wynne repoded to it? You were helping a cult of blood mages...What do you expect?
3. You not having mages to help you in DA:O is your fault. You can help blood mage cultist but not make one god baby?

[snootz]

Statare wrote...

snootz wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Not just the Mages my good man. The Templars were bat s**t crazy too. They abused their power and the Mages under their so called protection. They would rape them and take advantage of the tranquils submissive nature >...Overall both sides suck ass! I don't want to have to pick a side in Inquisition, they can both burn for all I care >

 

Well Bethany says (if she is in the Circle) she finds most of the templars quite polite and that they weren't so bad..

I thought the Templars didn't seem so crazy in comparison.. only one was truly evil/mad.. that guy who wanted to make all mage tranquil and rape them.. 

Meridith was on the extreme side but the idols influence clearly had a big affect there..

I cant think of any other "bad" ones of the top of my head.. even Cullen saves the innocent mages after the annulement/fight with Meridith

I agree. Mages seemed more crazy than the templars in DAII. Especially because we have two pro-mage companions and no real pro-templar characrers besides borring old Sebastian. Merrill has unconventional ideas and in many ways makes a lot of mistakes. Anders becomes a little delusional and it's easier from Hawkes perspective to see Anders as having done something disproportionate to the actions of the Templars/Chantry because of the way the templars/chantry are presented in the story. 

I think another issue is that the idea is that the mages are desperate, but only once do we really see their desperation (the girl about to be raped by Ser Alrik) as Hawke is so seperated from the circle. It was easier to be sympathetic to mages in DA:O if you had played through the mage origin because you see the circumstances that make a mage desperate/idealistic (they are prisoners with no hope of living their own life). Unfortunately in DAII you only see the desperation and not the cause of it where as in the desperate/cruel actions of mages you see the cause of Templar ideology.

So in DAII you have mages constantly reinforcing the arguments of the Templars, but you rarely see the Templars doing what may have caused the mages to be desperate in the first place. The only exception is Ser Alrik and Meredith is hard to deal with because sometimes she is reasonable, sometimes she isn't, and then before you know it she has lost her mind but all that is lost because the mages are also going crazy.

Edit: Also, when all esle fails you bring in a Tevinter mage and they are ALL crazy. I felt really bad that the good option with Feynriel is to send him to Tevinter.... where he most likely will encounter lots of those people. It's hard to argue that mages deserve to be free when the only place in Thedas where that is the case every mage is a psychotic socio-path who wants to enslave the world....

 

This is it exactly..

I mean i am playing the game as hawke.. 

I dont see all this supposed abuse in the circle in the game.. apart from the bit with Alric. 

But my mothers death.. my sibling being kidnapped.. grace a person i spared.. betraying me.. Merril being so naive with BM.. Anders blowing up innocents.. blood mages attacking me.. I was in the middle of this.. the game did a very poor job of me seeing this mistreatment of mages by templars..

Even my sister backed.this up.. infact she is the only reason i would save the mages.. but i can save her going pro templar with her in the circle (she was with wardens in my Playthrough)

Modifié par snootz, 07 septembre 2013 - 07:12 .

[Valdrane78]

Taleroth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

 It was never one side that was good or bad

Yeah, instead DA2 was that both sides are completely bad. Because they hyperfocused the worst.

The whole damn thing was just one big cluster****.  The whole system needs a purge.

[Mykel54]

@DarkKnightHolmes, i know that other party members have their crisis points too, but Wynne seemed smart enough to realise that the wardens are needed, if she leaves like that, then i guess my warden should go tell the orlesians to prepare and leave the self-righteous fereldans to the darkspawn.
About morrigan what i refer is the fact that she promises to help you agaisnt the blight (and does), but at the last moment, before you are going to kill the archdemon and end the blight, she comes up and blackmails you: either help me make some old god or i leave and you get no help. She is putting up new conditions at the last moment, even after you helped her with Flemeth, she only cares about herself and doesn´t care about stopping the blight.

@leaguer of one,
1. Orsino is an accomplice so he is at fault too, even if he did not commit the act himself.
2. I expected Wynne to be wiser and realise the wardens are needed to stop the blight, but i understand why she leaves.
3. My warden only helps the cultists to gain the dragon´s blood powers, they are killed as soon as they become useless (don´t want to fight the blight), along with their pet dragon.
Making some old god baby is very irresponsible as a warden that cares about defeating the darkspawn forever and not only stopping blights (he is a dwarf), you are putting a lot of faith on something that can empower the darkspawn (a human archdemon? who knows), the safest route is to kill the archdemon the old fashioned way. Morrigan can´t be altruistic even for a second (even after you help her with Flemeth) and at least help you kill the dragon, no, she gets up and leaves.

Modifié par Mykel54, 07 septembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[Martyr1777]

As the devs have said, DA2 was meant to show the worst of both sides of the issue. But I think the mages weren't near as bad as the templars. But then its a lot easier to side with the side that's under control then the side doing the controlling when you want fairness/equal treatment.

[Statare]

Martyr1777 wrote...

As the devs have said, DA2 was meant to show the worst of both sides of the issue. But I think the mages weren't near as bad as the templars. But then its a lot easier to side with the side that's under control then the side doing the controlling when you want fairness/equal treatment.

That is true. In the world of Thedas it is hard to say that any mage who became a maleificar was not simply fulfilling the role the templars want them to fill. Templars push mages to the brink so as to justify their imprisonment when the mage succumbs to a demon. The mages are already "guilty". The problem is, in DAII, we hardly ever see the Templar push and only see the Mage response to opression. The Templars seem a bit less evil in DAII because they don't really do anything other than what we expect they would do, and anytime you have people acting out of desperation against a more powerful force, they are going to look a little morally comprimised. I mean the sheer fact that we never see the rite of tranquility performed in game is suspicious considering we've seen so many posessions.... Every really bad thing the templars did in DAII was implied or behind the scenes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

In Exile wrote...

It's not overstating it. He speaks about tranquility as being a good thing, and a way to control mages now that everything else has failed.

You are. He is no extremist.
His argument is a logical one. The Tranquil solution was discussed and rejected. That was all.

He said arguments can be made to apply tranquility more widely. And that is true.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

It's not overstating it. He speaks about tranquility as being a good thing, and a way to control mages now that everything else has failed.

You are. He is no extremist.
His argument is a logical one. The Tranquil solution was discussed and rejected. That was all.

He said arguments can be made to apply tranquility more widely. And that is true.

Normally I am as pro-mage as they come, but I agree with Lotion on this front. Cullen is probably one of the most rational Templars I have seen in DA. And regarding the whole Circle in Ferelden thing, to be fair, everything was going batsh*t crazy, and personally I would have freaked out as well. But time in Kirkwall I think grounded him. He was certainly more moderate than Meredith. I believe he could stand as one of those who help mediate the conflict between Templars and mages, since he was there when everything went to hell in Kirkwall. I also hope he is a companion, as I would love to see how he has changed since the Veil was torn asunder.

[FeliciaM]

Elfman wrote...

In those mages defence, I'm 99% sure Kirkwall was built on a Hellmouth.

This. Kirkwall was built on top of an old Tevinter ruin. It's also speculated that this is the primary reason Justice went nuts, too. Not because of Anders' anger, though I'm sure it helped fan the flames Also with Sundermont in such close proximity, I'm surprised there are still some relatively sane mages left at all. Not to mention that Deep Roads passage that lead to the lyrium idol was right there, too. How many crazy inducers can you put onto one map? Jeez.

It seemed to me that Thrask and Cullen (and Carver, if he's alive) are the most sane templars you meet. Keran, too. But I'm sure none of them are really all that bad.

But I agree with snarky Hawke. Could we really go just one week without meeting one insane mage?

[Hellion Rex]

FeliciaM wrote...

Elfman wrote...

In those mages defence, I'm 99% sure Kirkwall was built on a Hellmouth.

This. Kirkwall was built on top of an old Tevinter ruin. It's also speculated that this is the primary reason Justice went nuts, too. Not because of Anders' anger, though I'm sure it helped fan the flames Also with Sundermont in such close proximity, I'm surprised there are still some relatively sane mages left at all. Not to mention that Deep Roads passage that lead to the lyrium idol was right there, too. How many crazy inducers can you put onto one map? Jeez.

It seemed to me that Thrask and Cullen (and Carver, if he's alive) are the most sane templars you meet. Keran, too. But I'm sure none of them are really all that bad.

But I agree with snarky Hawke. Could we really go just one week without meeting one insane mage?

Yeah, Kirkwall seemed to be a nexus of spiritual energy. The Veil was probably extremely thin there. And didn't the previous Viscount before Dunmar get possessed by a pride demon, before Meredith struck him down?

[mikeymoonshine]

Yeah Laidlaw said DA2 was all about extremes and that there would be better representations of pretty much everyone in inquisition.

So yay for that XD

Modifié par mikeymoonshine, 07 septembre 2013 - 10:30 .

[Vit246]

Statare wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

As the devs have said, DA2 was meant to show the worst of both sides of the issue. But I think the mages weren't near as bad as the templars. But then its a lot easier to side with the side that's under control then the side doing the controlling when you want fairness/equal treatment.

That is true. In the world of Thedas it is hard to say that any mage who became a maleificar was not simply fulfilling the role the templars want them to fill. Templars push mages to the brink so as to justify their imprisonment when the mage succumbs to a demon. The mages are already "guilty". The problem is, in DAII, we hardly ever see the Templar push and only see the Mage response to opression. The Templars seem a bit less evil in DAII because they don't really do anything other than what we expect they would do, and anytime you have people acting out of desperation against a more powerful force, they are going to look a little morally comprimised. I mean the sheer fact that we never see the rite of tranquility performed in game is suspicious considering we've seen so many posessions.... Every really bad thing the templars did in DAII was implied or behind the scenes.

Thats the main problem with DA2. All the crazy mages are all up in your face, while you never directly observe the bad templars. The worst part is the hidden codex Enigma of Kirkwall where all 12 entries are randomly scattered all over the maps in different Acts at daytime and nighttime. And if you ever finally complete the codex, it actually might vindicate the crazy mages, since there's no way they're doing all the crazy stuff out of their own rational free will. But the codex is ridiculously hidden and you can play the game without ever really knowing about it. Its all implied and behind the scenes and in the background like unimportant trash.

[In Exile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are. He is no extremist.

Who said he was an extremist? He's looney tunes, but he's representing the official line.

His argument is a logical one. The Tranquil solution was discussed and rejected. That was all.

No, it wasn't. Because he doesn't reference the absolute horror that the thing is - he laments the Chantry isn't lobotomizing mages faster. 

He said arguments can be made to apply tranquility more widely. And that is true.

In the context of a conversation where he talks about controlling mages, where he talks about how the current system isn't working, and in response to a plan that would forcibly make all mages in the Free Marches tranquil. And he ends off by implying that mages are overreacting for complaining about being lobotimized. 

Cullen is looney tunes in DA2, and he's just as crazy in DA:O after the Circle Tower questline. 

[Navasha]

I always have a hard time siding with Templars. I usually do it on my "evil" playthrough when playing a character who is basically heartless.

Its hard to lay much blame on mages who have been imprisoned, tortured, and abused their whole lives. In their situation, I would lash out in any way I could as well.

[Hellion Rex]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are. He is no extremist.

Who said he was an extremist? He's looney tunes, but he's representing the official line.

His argument is a logical one. The Tranquil solution was discussed and rejected. That was all.

No, it wasn't. Because he doesn't reference the absolute horror that the thing is - he laments the Chantry isn't lobotomizing mages faster. 

He said arguments can be made to apply tranquility more widely. And that is true.

In the context of a conversation where he talks about controlling mages, where he talks about how the current system isn't working, and in response to a plan that would forcibly make all mages in the Free Marches tranquil. And he ends off by implying that mages are overreacting for complaining about being lobotimized. 

Cullen is looney tunes in DA2, and he's just as crazy in DA:O after the Circle Tower questline. 

Normally, I don't agree with Lotion on much anything. But Cullen isn't Looney Tunes. He was tortured by a blood mage in DA:O. Are you saying that you wouldn't be screwed up after going through something like that?

[The Six Path of Pain]

snootz wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Not just the Mages my good man. The Templars were bat s**t crazy too. They abused their power and the Mages under their so called protection. They would rape them and take advantage of the tranquils submissive nature >...Overall both sides suck ass! I don't want to have to pick a side in Inquisition, they can both burn for all I care >

 

Well Bethany says (if she is in the Circle) she finds most of the templars quite polite and that they weren't so bad..

I thought the Templars didn't seem so crazy in comparison.. only one was truly evil/mad.. that guy who wanted to make all mage tranquil and rape them.. 

Meridith was on the extreme side but the idols influence clearly had a big affect there..

I cant think of any other "bad" ones of the top of my head.. even Cullen saves the innocent mages after the annulement/fight with Meridith

Did she? Huh I can't recall that conversation. When exactly did she say this?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Rhys would be the best bet to represent mages. His not a blood mage or an extremist.

[Martyr1777]

Vit246 wrote...

Statare wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

As the devs have said, DA2 was meant to show the worst of both sides of the issue. But I think the mages weren't near as bad as the templars. But then its a lot easier to side with the side that's under control then the side doing the controlling when you want fairness/equal treatment.

That is true. In the world of Thedas it is hard to say that any mage who became a maleificar was not simply fulfilling the role the templars want them to fill. Templars push mages to the brink so as to justify their imprisonment when the mage succumbs to a demon. The mages are already "guilty". The problem is, in DAII, we hardly ever see the Templar push and only see the Mage response to opression. The Templars seem a bit less evil in DAII because they don't really do anything other than what we expect they would do, and anytime you have people acting out of desperation against a more powerful force, they are going to look a little morally comprimised. I mean the sheer fact that we never see the rite of tranquility performed in game is suspicious considering we've seen so many posessions.... Every really bad thing the templars did in DAII was implied or behind the scenes.

Thats the main problem with DA2. All the crazy mages are all up in your face, while you never directly observe the bad templars. The worst part is the hidden codex Enigma of Kirkwall where all 12 entries are randomly scattered all over the maps in different Acts at daytime and nighttime. And if you ever finally complete the codex, it actually might vindicate the crazy mages, since there's no way they're doing all the crazy stuff out of their own rational free will. But the codex is ridiculously hidden and you can play the game without ever really knowing about it. Its all implied and behind the scenes and in the background like unimportant trash.

Hmm, been a while since I played DA2, but when I think about it I don't remember too much from the templar side, except for the knight commander seemed power hungry from the start to me. That with my generic dislike of the concept maybe made me imagine the negative things we never say in the game.

Having just recently finished Asunder the acts and attitude from the book  just reinforced the conception of DA2 for me. Honestly we might not have seen it in DA2, but its not a big leap to imagine the sort of abuses that can come from that sort of situation, I mean a circle really is a prison in a society that don't care how prisoners are treated.

So I guess to me the crazy mages just made sense with what I imaged happened in the background that the game couldn't cover.

[Martyr1777]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Rhys would be the best bet to represent mages. His not a blood mage or an extremist.

Not to mention his lover is a templar that beleives in protecting mages. It wasn't a surprise when it was his vote the decided the fate of the circles.

Look forward to meeting them in DAI... which I fully expect.

[DarthLaxian]

snootz wrote...

Seriously i found it so hard to side with mages in DA2 because it felt like almost every single one went crazy..

Other then Bethany and The guy involved with Grace..

Orisino turned to blood magic and was sending books on the subject to the guy responsible for killing your mum!!

Grace despite ME saving her decided she needed to kill me..?? seriously what is up with that??

Two out of three of the mages you are asked to hunt down are BAT**** crazy..

Your two main mages are crazy/deluded.. 

One is a borderline terrorist.. who just goes to show WHY templars are needed

The other is consorting with Demons/Blood magic and thinks it's normal

So can we tone down the crazy in DAI? or do you think they will be represented as lunatics ready to turn to blood magic at any minute

while i tend to agree when it comes to Anders, he is also warped by Vengeance (who once was Justice!)

i draw the line at Merril:

she knows what she is doing and only once loses control (she turns on you in the fade - but so does Isabela for example so that is excusable IMHO) - the keeper being possessed and the clan possibly killed is not directly her fault (so stop holding her accountable please!)

as for the rest:

yes, indeed (while i have nothing against blood-mages and would love if the now free mages would openly talk about that and maybe even teach it to their apprentices (they need it - let's face it, how should they fight templars (in greater numbers), when they can shut the mages down when they come in close (mages don't have much weapons-training, so going that route is out and they don't have much in the way of armor either!)) i don't like them all bat-****-crazy!) crazy mages has been done to death in DA - why not have some be power-hungry or angry (trying to avenge somebody for example) without losing it!

greetings LAX

[Lotion Soronarr]

In Exile wrote...

His argument is a logical one. The Tranquil solution was discussed and rejected. That was all.

No, it wasn't. Because he doesn't reference the absolute horror that the thing is - he laments the Chantry isn't lobotomizing mages faster.

Yes it was.
Absolute horror? What a bunch of dung.

So either a NPC agrees wiht your worldview 100%, or he is a evil SOB? Tranquility is seen by many as a mercy. Fact.
He directly states that the harrowing has been serving the Circles and mages well, and as long as mages don't go bonkers, no other method is necessary.

He said arguments can be made to apply tranquility more widely. And that is true.

In the context of a conversation where he talks about controlling mages, where he talks about how the current system isn't working, and in response to a plan that would forcibly make all mages in the Free Marches tranquil. And he ends off by implying that mages are overreacting for complaining about being lobotimized. 

Cullen is looney tunes in DA2, and he's just as crazy in DA:O after the Circle Tower questline.

You are projecting your own intentions.
He states that mages are overreacting when they think the plan will actually be (or was) approved.