243 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by 'need.' We certainly don't 'need' an explanation for the story to be good. It's not as if Mass Effect is badly written because it's not 'explained' why Liara is a good biotic, as Ventus implied. That's very silly.

It makes no sense why Liara is good when she's a civilian with no training, yet we're just supposed to accept that she's just awesome like that. That's non-sensical.

[David7204]

SNascimento wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Okay, that is complete nonsense. How many countless stories have had a character start out knowing nothing about combat and end up as a master? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? It's a perfectly reasonable trope, and deluding yourself that Mass Effect is different out of your dislike for Liara is incredibly foolish.

So, I pointing out that Liara character progression's was bad is me not liking the character? I don't blame a chracter for her being shoehorned into my story in ME3, if anyone I blame the developers. But her terrible chracter progression is something that I noted back in ME2.

You can pick any other ME1 squadmate and their role in ME2 is obvious. Tali, Garrus, Wrex. All of them were doing things you expect them to do. Now how many people by the end of ME1 though Liara would be a spectrle-level-figher and a shadow-broker level information broker? I'd say not very many. 

And? Is that supposed to be a problem of some kind? Characters doing unexpected things or being in unexpected situations isn't a problem at all.

And yes. You clearly don't like Liara, or else you wouldn't be whining about her being 'shoehorned' into ME 3.

[AresKeith]

Ask Vegeta

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by 'need.' We certainly don't 'need' an explanation for the story to be good. It's not as if Mass Effect is badly written because it's not 'explained' why Liara is a good biotic, as Ventus implied. That's very silly.

It makes no sense why Liara is good when she's a civilian with no training, yet we're just supposed to accept that she's just awesome like that. That's non-sensical.

ITS LIARA, NO EXPLANATIONS ARE NEEDED FOR SHE IS THE CHOOSEN OF DAVID

Modifié par Steelcan, 08 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by 'need.' We certainly don't 'need' an explanation for the story to be good. It's not as if Mass Effect is badly written because it's not 'explained' why Liara is a good biotic, as Ventus implied. That's very silly.

It makes no sense why Liara is good when she's a civilian with no training, yet we're just supposed to accept that she's just awesome like that. That's non-sensical.

The utterly simple, reasonable, and plausible explanation is that she recieves training from Shepard.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by 'need.' We certainly don't 'need' an explanation for the story to be good. It's not as if Mass Effect is badly written because it's not 'explained' why Liara is a good biotic, as Ventus implied. That's very silly.

It makes no sense why Liara is good when she's a civilian with no training, yet we're just supposed to accept that she's just awesome like that. That's non-sensical.

The utterly simple, reasonable, and plausible explanation is that she recieves training from Shepard.

He should have specified, "outside of David's fantasy world where all Shepards get along with everyone and can train everyone even if they have no biotics"

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Okay, that is complete nonsense. How many countless stories have had a character start out knowing nothing about combat and end up as a master? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? It's a perfectly reasonable trope, and deluding yourself that Mass Effect is different out of your dislike for Liara is incredibly foolish.

They usually explain how someone got so proficient. Liara becomes what the writers want her to be, and it's  rather arbitrarily executed in my opinion. 

And really, it's not reasonable. No one said anything about Mass Effect being any different (so you're already injecting false claims for a false conclusion) and just because so many other series do it doesn't make it any good or unworthy of criticism. So yes, Mass Effect is less because of this.

[SNascimento]

David7204 wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Okay, that is complete nonsense. How many countless stories have had a character start out knowing nothing about combat and end up as a master? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? It's a perfectly reasonable trope, and deluding yourself that Mass Effect is different out of your dislike for Liara is incredibly foolish.

So, I pointing out that Liara character progression's was bad is me not liking the character? I don't blame a chracter for her being shoehorned into my story in ME3, if anyone I blame the developers. But her terrible chracter progression is something that I noted back in ME2.

You can pick any other ME1 squadmate and their role in ME2 is obvious. Tali, Garrus, Wrex. All of them were doing things you expect them to do. Now how many people by the end of ME1 though Liara would be a spectrle-level-figher and a shadow-broker level information broker? I'd say not very many. 

And? Is that supposed to be a problem of some kind? Characters doing unexpected things or being in unexpected situations isn't a problem at all.

And yes. You clearly don't like Liara, or else you wouldn't be whining about her being 'shoehorned' into ME 3.

It is if it doesn't make sense. 

And my problem, as I said, isn't with Liara is particular. It's with the whole decision of sidelining ME2 squadmates in ME3. With the exception of Javik and Garrus, I would gladly change all others with ME2 character and Wrex.

Liara is just a very noticiable character, one that I had to put up with even when I thought It I shoudn't have to.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

He should have specified, "outside of David's fantasy world where all Shepards get along with everyone and can train everyone even if they have no biotics"

The fact that Shepard gets along well enough with Liara to keep on the ship, meld with her, go on at least several missions with her, dive for her instead of the other squadmate when attacking the Broker, and hug her on Illium is all canonical. Surely training her isn't beyond any of that?

Modifié par David7204, 08 septembre 2013 - 08:25 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by 'need.' We certainly don't 'need' an explanation for the story to be good. It's not as if Mass Effect is badly written because it's not 'explained' why Liara is a good biotic, as Ventus implied. That's very silly.

It makes no sense why Liara is good when she's a civilian with no training, yet we're just supposed to accept that she's just awesome like that. That's non-sensical.

The utterly simple, reasonable, and plausible explanation is that she recieves training from Shepard.

I think you're scrambling to jump to a conclusion that is none of those things.

Why would she receive training from Shepard? He's busy. He has a mission to accomplish and a ship to run. He has far more important things to do than teach her how to hold a gun. She has... other duties that she's supposed to be doing. Do you even know how the military works? This isn't a training mission. This isn't a mission where some random civilian is here to learn about fighting. She needs to be proficient enough on her own (which she's not), or she to get the hell off. It seems the only thing BW wanted her to do was be a conveniently related person to the villain who also happens to conveniently have information on the mission. I'd cite you the TV Tropes page that describes Liara as this, but you'd simply go in there and change it.

[David7204]

StreetMagic wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The utterly simple, reasonable, and plausible explanation is that she recieves training from Shepard.

That reasonable actually, but assumes Shep is a biotic.

And then a specific type of Biotic who'd have the ability to train in the first place. Personally, my Biotic Shep is an Earthborn. He had eezo exposure in utero and secondary exposure handling eezo and red sand for the Reds. Not to mention being a red sand fiend himself as a teen. So his powers are more on the primal end. He still relies on a shotgun to take people down.

Sorry, got carried away. Backstories are fun.

Not really, no. After all, Liara is skilled at more than just biotics. Besides, even if Shepard isn't a biotic, Wrex and Kaidan are. And both of them certainly seem willing to help.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He should have specified, "outside of David's fantasy world where all Shepards get along with everyone and can train everyone even if they have no biotics"

The fact that Shepard gets along well enough with Liara to keep on the ship, meld with her, go on at least several missions with her, dive for her instead of the other squadmate when attacking the Broker, and hug her on Illium is all canonical. Surely training her isn't beyond any of that?

-forced to keep her on ship, can voice displeasure
-demanded by the plot, and you can refuse a few times
-forced
-forced
-forced

That's just writer favoritism, not anything good about her

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The utterly simple, reasonable, and plausible explanation is that she recieves training from Shepard.

That reasonable actually, but assumes Shep is a biotic.

And then a specific type of Biotic who'd have the ability to train in the first place. Personally, my Biotic Shep is an Earthborn. He had eezo exposure in utero and secondary exposure handling eezo and red sand for the Reds. Not to mention being a red sand fiend himself as a teen. So his powers are more on the primal end. He still relies on a shotgun to take people down.

Sorry, got carried away. Backstories are fun.

Not really, no. After all, Liara is skilled at more than just biotics. Besides, even if Shepard isn't a biotic, Wrex and Kaidan are. And both of them certainly seem willing to help.

Both of whom are dead in the majority of playthroughs

[spirosz]

STOP THE JACK HATE. STAPT IT.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He should have specified, "outside of David's fantasy world where all Shepards get along with everyone and can train everyone even if they have no biotics"

The fact that Shepard gets along well enough with Liara to keep on the ship, meld with her, go on at least several missions with her, dive for her instead of the other squadmate when attacking the Broker, and hug her on Illium is all canonical. Surely training her isn't beyond any of that?

1. Against player design
2. I melded with her once. Just once. And only because I had to.
3. Against player design
4. Cutscene incompetence and favoritism (I'd have personally shot her in the back as soon as I met the real SB)
5. I never hugged her on Illium

Actually, it is. I've already outlined how there's no point in training Liara. 

[David7204]

Your little delusions are falling apart, Massively. Commander Shepard in the series Mass Effect clearly is on good terms and willing to help Liara. That is plain and simple fact beyond debate. And you spend all the time you want repeating to yourself what 'Your Shepard' does. It won't make it true. 'Your Shepard' is nothing more than a fantasy.

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

Your little delusions are falling apart, Massively. Commander Shepard in the series Mass Effect clearly is on good terms and willing to help Liara. That is plain and simple fact beyond debate. And you spend all the time you want repeating to yourself what 'Your Shepard' does. It won't make it true. 'Your Shepard' is nothing more than a fantasy.

Canonically?  Sure, mine - no. 

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by 'need.' We certainly don't 'need' an explanation for the story to be good. It's not as if Mass Effect is badly written because it's not 'explained' why Liara is a good biotic, as Ventus implied. That's very silly.

It makes no sense why Liara is good when she's a civilian with no training, yet we're just supposed to accept that she's just awesome like that. That's non-sensical.

ITS LIARA, NO EXPLANATIONS ARE NEEDED FOR SHE IS THE CHOOSEN OF DAVID

Liara is blue and has boobs. It wouldnt make sense if she couldn't kick ass too. 

[David7204]

By all means, go spend all the time you want on the fan fiction forum. I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear about your alternate universe. But please, let's not confuse fantasy and fact.

Modifié par David7204, 08 septembre 2013 - 08:33 .

[SNascimento]

David7204 wrote...

Your little delusions are falling apart, Massively. Commander Shepard in the series Mass Effect clearly is on good terms and willing to help Liara. That is plain and simple fact beyond debate. And you spend all the time you want repeating to yourself what 'Your Shepard' does. It won't make it true. 'Your Shepard' is nothing more than a fantasy.

Shepard is on good terms with all squadmates, regardless of what you think. There is nothing to it. But it's weird that you are trying to dismiss other people stories while trying to imply that Shepard or somebody else trained Liara.

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

By all means, go spend all the time you want on the fan fiction forum. I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear about your alternate universe.

There is no alternate universe.  Liara is a bad Shadow Broker, factodamacto.

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...
Not really, no. After all, Liara is skilled at more than just biotics. Besides, even if Shepard isn't a biotic, Wrex and Kaidan are. And both of them certainly seem willing to help.

Wrex was busy unifying the Krogan Clans if he isn't dead, Kaidan can also be dead, and Shepard was dead for two years before getting locked up after the events of Arrival and ME2. The Normandy gets blown up a month after the Battle of the Citadel according the the timeline, when exactly during all of this is any member of the crew training Liara, or is a month sufficent training?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 08 septembre 2013 - 08:36 .