127 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If they're going to disregard player choices they might as well canonize an outcome that didn't happen in ME3. They could just have the Reapers be gone (fate not confiirmed, just vaguely "defeated") and all the races still alive. And Bioware can let players fill in the gap as to how that is

That would be an acceptable compromise.  

Although with all races still alive, certain decisions will still be canonised.

 Anyhow, if the next ME game is going to be a more personal story then these details are not going to matter much in practice. I think their number one priority is making a quality game. ME2 had a pretty lackluster premise but the experience was polished enough to where it's regarded as a high-quality title.

The details will indicate What the foundation of this new galaxy is built upon.  For a lot of us, it will matter.  

[AlanC9]

MegaSovereign wrote..

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm with KaiserShep. Canonize high-EMS destroy (which means that particular Shepard lived), the geth died at Rannoch so MEHEM fans can pretend MEHEM happened... all you really lose are the entitled whiners who can't handle an RPG series canonizing stuff, and the fanbase is well rid of them

So basically, Bioware should respect a fan-made mod more than they should respect any non-Destroy outcome. At that point why would they care about pleasing a minority of the community who has the mod installed (no disrespect to people who like the mod; even if every PC player had MEHEM installed they would still be a technical minority)?

Ye gods, no. I've got zero use for MEHEM or keeping its fans happy. I just don't see incorporating multiple game states from ME3 into a future game as workable anyway. Since they ought  to canonize something, and on the merits I like Destroy best for that (like Tantum says a couple posts ago), I don't see any value in gratuitously ruling MEHEM out. The point is that MEHEM is indistinguishable from Destroy as long as the geth were dead at Rannoch, and if you're canonizing Destroy anyway it doesn't much matter where the geth die.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 septembre 2013 - 05:18 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If they're going to disregard player choices they might as well canonize an outcome that didn't happen in ME3. They could just have the Reapers be gone (fate not confiirmed, just vaguely "defeated") and all the races still alive. And Bioware can let players fill in the gap as to how that is

That would be an acceptable compromise.  

Although with all races still alive, certain decisions will still be canonised.

Well in this situation Bioware has three options:

1) They can outright declare that certain outcomes are not canonical. (Example: Shepard's death in ME2)
2) They can diverge the long term result of certain outcomes. (Example: Udina being councilor in ME3 no matter what)
3) Or they can simply leave it up to the player to decide how they want to imagine certain events playing out. Meaning that Bioware leaves their reasoning ambiguous and lets the players decide whether option (1) or (2) occured. 

No matter what a game set after ME3 will directly or indirectly disregard choices made in the original trilogy. IMO, option 3 is the lesser evil for obvious reasons. 

 Anyhow, if the next ME game is going to be a more personal story then these details are not going to matter much in practice. I think their number one priority is making a quality game. ME2 had a pretty lackluster premise but the experience was polished enough to where it's regarded as a high-quality title.

The details will indicate What the foundation of this new galaxy is built upon.  For a lot of us, it will matter.  

On a micro level the foundation is going to be largely the similar no matter how they handle the game's pre-history.

Ofcourse I'm ruling out low EMS and Refusal outcomes, where the galaxy is wiped out. I think it's safe to say those outcomes will be off the table.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 10 septembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[Xamufam]

There wont be a sequel

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Well in this situation Bioware has three options:

1) They can outright declare that certain outcomes are not canonical. (Example: Shepard's death in ME2)
2) They can diverge the long term result of certain outcomes. (Example: Udina being councilor in ME3 no matter what)
3) Or they can simply leave it up to the player to decide how they want to imagine certain events playing out. Meaning that Bioware leaves their reasoning ambiguous and lets the players decide whether option (1) or (2) occured. 

No matter what a game set after ME3 will directly or indirectly disregard choices made in the original trilogy. IMO, option 3 is the lesser evil for obvious reasons.

That's actually what I've been warning about, and what Bioware will inevitably have to do to make a sequel that doesn't directly canonize one of the endings.  

And yes, #3 is the best option, compared to saying  certain options aren't canon (FailShep in ME2), deciding the player chose wrong and forcing the story back on the One True Path (Councilor Udina) or trivializing the chocie so it hardly matters what you picked anyway (rachni queen)

Don't import anything and be as vague as possible about what happened, let the player fill in the blanks, be it Hgih EMS Destroy, Synthesiss, or even IT or MEHEM.

On a micro level the foundation is going to be largely the similar no matter how they handle the game's pre-history.

Ofcourse I'm ruling out low EMS and Refusal outcomes, where the galaxy is wiped out. I think it's safe to say those outcomes will be off the table.

I'm referring to society being rebuild based on the slaughter of millions of synthetic allies, god-emperor Shepard, , or the genetic violation of every living thing in the galaxy.  I have no interest in further participation in the Mass Effect universe if I have to acknowledge that any of those things happened.  This will matter a great deal to me.

[mugwuffin1986]

Mass Effect "Next" should be set so far into the future that all you need to know is that Shepard defeated the Reaper threat and ended the war.

That's the only detail you need to know... like a ripple effect on the water, the further from the epicenter the less noticeable the initial incident is.

Shepard is the stuff of legend in the future, we all know this from the Stargazer scene... and it's all you need to know.

But IF they really had to choose an outcome, I'm pretty sure they'd go with High Destroy. Just take a gander around the forums, of the people that actually like the ending Destroy is by far the preferred. Throwing in... "Oh yeah... some years down the line they rebuilt the Geth... yadda yadda." wouldn't be beyond them.

[AlanC9]

Troxa wrote...

There wont be a sequel

Is this based on something?

[Iakus]

Troxa wrote...

There wont be a sequel

Reboot works for me too.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

And yes, #3 is the best option, compared to saying  certain options aren't canon (FailShep in ME2), deciding the player chose wrong and forcing the story back on the One True Path (Councilor Udina) or trivializing the chocie so it hardly matters what you picked anyway (rachni queen)

Don't import anything and be as vague as possible about what happened, let the player fill in the blanks, be it Hgih EMS Destroy, Synthesiss, or even IT or MEHEM.

But vague how? Is everyone running around Synthesized, or not? Do the geth exist, or not? Are Reapers still flying around, or not?

Let's not pretend that there are neutral answers to these questions.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 septembre 2013 - 03:24 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

But vague how? Is everyone running around Synthesized, or not? Do the geth exist, or not? Are Reapers still flying around, or not?

Let's not pretend that there are neutral answers to these questions.

As MegaSovereign said:  The Reapers were stopped "somehow" in a way that is never described.  Leave the "how" up to the imagination of the player.  Shepard is never mentioned as alive or dead, leaving that up to the player as well. 

I did say that canonizing all the races still alive would be problematic for some player choices.  .  Not pretending it's a neutral answer.  Just that I would personally be okay with this setup.

[AlanC9]

Of course you'd be OK with it. It's tantamount to canonizing MEHEM, and you know it. And not just any MEHEM playthrough, but a MEHEM playthrough resulting in an end-state which cannot be achieved in the vanilla game.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 septembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Of course you'd be OK with it. It's tantamount to canonizing MEHEM, and you know it. And not just any MEHEM playthrough, but a MEHEM playthrough resulting in an end-state which cannot be achieved in the vanilla game.

It would canonize MEHEM as much as it would canonize IT.

Or Synthesis where the green eyes and circuitry faded after a while

Or Control where the Reapers leave the galaxy to thier own devices.

Or just plain old High EMS Destroy where the geth can be repaired. 

[AlanC9]

The difference is that making the other endings work requires weapons-grade headcanon. Whereas you just get your preferred set of facts straight-up.

Seriously, do you really not see that your preferred ending is in a privileged position here?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is that making the other endings work requires weapons-grade headcanon. Whereas you just get your preferred set of facts straight-up.

Seriously, do you really not see that your preferred ending is in a privileged position here?

Weapons grade headcanon?

I see people using these very reasons to justify their ending choices right here on these boards.   Or to explain how a direct sequel is possible.  This level of headcanon is already happening.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

I'm referring to society being rebuild based on the slaughter of millions of synthetic allies, god-emperor Shepard, , or the genetic violation of every living thing in the galaxy. I have no interest in further participation in the Mass Effect universe if I have to acknowledge that any of those things happened. This will matter a great deal to me.

Well...um okay but if we're being honest, civilization being built on shady acts is not that uncommon in the ME Universe....or real life. I never saw Mass Effect as being this classic tale about good vs evil. To me moral relativism has always been a big element of the series. Not saying this excuses the ending's narrative flaws, but I can kinda imagine how civilization would be like post-ending.

Anyways, I'm saying that in practice the details of the game's pre-history won't really affect the quality of the game as much if it is indeed a smaller scale journey. That's why I'm personally okay with Bioware letting players fill in some of the events.

[MegaSovereign]

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is that making the other endings work requires weapons-grade headcanon. Whereas you just get your preferred set of facts straight-up.

Seriously, do you really not see that your preferred ending is in a privileged position here?

Well, it goes both ways. If they don't think the Geth would add much to the next-gen Mass Effect experience they could just never show any around. Players could then come to their own conclusions about what happened (destroyed by Crucible or they simply isolated themselves from organic civilization).

Again, this isn't really ideal. In fact it sucks, but if they're not going to let us import saves then this is the least sucky option.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The difference is that making the other endings work requires weapons-grade headcanon. Whereas you just get your preferred set of facts straight-up.

Seriously, do you really not see that your preferred ending is in a privileged position here?

Weapons grade headcanon?

I see people using these very reasons to justify their ending choices right here on these boards.   Or to explain how a direct sequel is possible.  This level of headcanon is already happening.

That isn't an answer to my question.

Note that there's nothing wrong with trying to canonize MEHEM. Maybe they'll even do it -- I can see an argument that this is the efficient outcome, since you were so badly traumatized by the real ending whereas your fanmade ending doesn't traumatize me.

[AlanC9]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Well, it goes both ways. If they don't think the Geth would add much to the next-gen Mass Effect experience they could just never show any around. Players could then come to their own conclusions about what happened (destroyed by Crucible or they simply isolated themselves from organic civilization).

Again, this isn't really ideal. In fact it sucks, but if they're not going to let us import saves then this is the least sucky option.

I'm still not clear why a canon outcome is any worse for ME4 than it was for Fallout 2. But yeah, no geth is fine. Hell, I proposed that myself a couple of pages ago.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The difference is that making the other endings work requires weapons-grade headcanon. Whereas you just get your preferred set of facts straight-up.

Seriously, do you really not see that your preferred ending is in a privileged position here?

Weapons grade headcanon?

I see people using these very reasons to justify their ending choices right here on these boards.   Or to explain how a direct sequel is possible.  This level of headcanon is already happening.

That isn't an answer to my question.

Note that there's nothing wrong with trying to canonize MEHEM. Maybe they'll even do it -- I can see an argument that this is the efficient outcome, since you were so badly traumatized by the real ending whereas your fanmade ending doesn't traumatize me.

Just gotta get those digs in, don't you?

Then how about this:

Your way canonizes an ending and basically thumbs the nose at anyone who chose differently, whether it be an "official" ending or not.

My way allows people to imagine official and unofficial endings, whichever they prefer, as long as thier ending doesn't require that it be exlicitly displayed on teh screen.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

I'm referring to society being rebuild based on the slaughter of millions of synthetic allies, god-emperor Shepard, , or the genetic violation of every living thing in the galaxy. I have no interest in further participation in the Mass Effect universe if I have to acknowledge that any of those things happened. This will matter a great deal to me.

Well...um okay but if we're being honest, civilization being built on shady acts is not that uncommon in the ME Universe....or real life. I never saw Mass Effect as being this classic tale about good vs evil. To me moral relativism has always been a big element of the series. Not saying this excuses the ending's narrative flaws, but I can kinda imagine how civilization would be like post-ending.

Anyways, I'm saying that in practice the details of the game's pre-history won't really affect the quality of the game as much if it is indeed a smaller scale journey. That's why I'm personally okay with Bioware letting players fill in some of the events.

To me, ME3 went beyond moral relativism and into moral nihilism.  But that's probably for another thread.  But the pont being, just because shady acts have happened in the past doesn't mean I want to tacitly endorse them in the future.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote..
Just gotta get those digs in, don't you?

Honestly, I would have refrained that time if you hadn't ducked the question. Though, yeah, that's what I do.

Your way canonizes an ending and basically thumbs the nose at anyone who chose differently, whether it be an "official" ending or not.

I don't see canon choices that way. But let's table that for now, since I'm not sure it's relevant.

My way allows people to imagine official and unofficial endings, whichever they prefer, as long as thier ending doesn't require that it be exlicitly displayed on teh screen.

It allows people to imagine endings within constraints. You're not proposing anything better than a preposterous handwave for Synthesis fans, for instance.If I was a Synthesis fan this would be worse than having Synthesis ruled out of the canon. But since I'm not, I'll leave that problem to others.

So the question is, what's on-screen? If you're demanding live geth, our positions are not reconcilable.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

To me, ME3 went beyond moral relativism and into moral nihilism.  But that's probably for another thread.  But the pont being, just because shady acts have happened in the past doesn't mean I want to tacitly endorse them in the future.

Because there is so much player agency involved in the decision making and that the choices were designed to have players decide which choice is best from both an objective and ethical standard, by definition it is not moral nihilism. The fact that how one views an ending choice is subjective also plays into that. 

I think you're stuck on the whole "moral of the story" when there really isn't one. For better or for worse, Mass Effect has never defined a strict code of ethics. 

Regardless of pre-history, the next Mass Effect will be divorced from the trilogy. Meaning any theme you got out of the trilogy shouldn't be applied to the next game. The only relevance the trilogy has is the outcomes of certain races on a macro level.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...
Honestly, I would have refrained that time if you hadn't ducked the question. Though, yeah, that's what I do.

I ducked nothing.

You said this method would require "weapons grade headcanon" I pointed out it's nothing more than what's already being used to justify an ending chocie.  Ergo, no one is in a "priviliged position" as this scenerio is lready being envisioned.

It allows people to imagine endings within constraints. You're not proposing anything better than a preposterous handwave for Synthesis fans, for instance.If I was a Synthesis fan this would be worse than having Synthesis ruled out of the canon. But since I'm not, I'll leave that problem to others.

Well, Synthsis is already a handwave, so...

Okay, i get my own digs too.  Sue me 

But like I said, people are already imagining this stuff to justify how an ME4 can happen 

"Oh, the green eyes will go away"
"The Reapers will leave us alone
"The geth can be rebuilt"  

People are anticipating the galaxy converging into a single state again, with minimal alterations based on RGB.  I say just take it a couple of steps further and make it no alterations

So the question is, what's on-screen? If you're demanding live geth, our positions are not reconcilable.

I'm not demanding live death.  I just don't want dead geth.  The idea I responded to said just canonize all the species are still alive.  I believe I even pointed out that wouldn't sit well with everyone.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Because there is so much player agency involved in the decision making and that the choices were designed to have players decide which choice is best from both an objective and ethical standard, by definition it is not moral nihilism. The fact that how one views an ending choice is subjective also plays into that.

Except for me and others, there end had no "best choices".  There weren't even "good choices"  The ending had to aspire to achieve "bad choices"  "Sophie's Choice: IN SPACE!!!"

None of the options made the cut as far as ethical standards go.  And from my point of view, the chcoies were something the Joker or Jigsaw would concoct to torment people with.

I think you're stuck on the whole "moral of the story" when there really isn't one. For better or for worse, Mass Effect has never defined a strict code of ethics.

And yet no choice in the trilogy hit me with such revulsion as RGB.

Regardless of pre-history, the next Mass Effect will be divorced from the trilogy. Meaning any theme you got out of the trilogy shouldn't be applied to the next game. The only relevance the trilogy has is the outcomes of certain races on a macro level.

Keep RGB the frak away from whatever comes next and I'll entertain the thought of someday purchasing the game.