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[Angrywolves]

There are kindly spirits of the fade like Wynne talked about , apparently there are others like Justice, and then there are demons ..

There are no good demons.

[The Hierophant]

There's already neutral or helpful spirits like Valor in the mage origin, and Justice in Awakening. Demons are predatory spirits so any help from them means that there's a less than nice catch to it. Though a good demon should actually be a normal spirit like Valor.

[Former_Fiend]

The Hierophant wrote...

There's already neutral or helpful spirits like Valor in the mage origin, and Justice in Awakening. Demons are predatory spirits so any help from them means that there's a less than nice catch to it. Though a good demon should actually be a normal spirit like Valor.

There was also a sloth demon who could be fairly helpful to you in the mage origin. Sure, he threatened you a bit, but he'd still help you out.

I tend to agree with Merrill's assessment of the situation; all spirits are alien and potentially dangerous. The classification of demons, and the separation of demons and spirits, this is a falsehood, a catagorization of them placed in universe to help make sense of beings that you can't make sense of.

[esper]

I still personally think that Spirits are ten times more dangerous than a demon. Spirits actually tries to emulate an 'virtue' and does not stray from it. They might perverse it like Justice can arguablely do, but they really tries to live up to it.

Demons on the other hands (at least if we goes by the way they actually act in game), seems to use their emotions to prey on mortals more than they tries to be that emotion and actually care so much about themselves that they can be negotiated, bribed and threatened to give up their first goal, with a spirit if it disagree with you so far it seems that you have to play a game of twisting words and minds to make it change see that the thing you want does actully fit its 'virtue'.

[Topsider]

The Inquisitor is a demon! Sole survivor of a mysterious tear in the veil sounds suspicious. I bet the protag is involved/responsible in some way.

[clone wars]

I bet that ther well be demon that well help out but for ther own plans

[Maria Caliban]

DarkSpider88 wrote...

No, the only good a demon is a dead demon!

clone wars wrote...

thay maybe a faction of Demons who may like to help The Inquisitor at no price

Mortals don't even give you stuff for free in DA. If you came upon an isolated village being attacked by werewolves every night, the blacksmith would offer to forge you an anti-werewolf sword, BUT ONLY AFTER you help him with his relationship troubles with his wife and then go to a nearby cave to pick him 15 mushrooms.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 septembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[The Hierophant]

Former_Fiend wrote...

There was also a sloth demon who could be fairly helpful to you in the mage origin. Sure, he threatened you a bit, but he'd still help you out.

I tend to agree with Merrill's assessment of the situation; all spirits are alien and potentially dangerous. The classification of demons, and the separation of demons and spirits, this is a falsehood, a catagorization of them placed in universe to help make sense of beings that you can't make sense of.

True but it seemed like there was no good will behind his help, in comparison to the selflessness of Valor or Justice in Awakening. Though all spirits may be dangerous but the classification of carnivorous spirits still seems valid as it denotes their predatory nature towards mortals.

[esper]

The Hierophant wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

There was also a sloth demon who could be fairly helpful to you in the mage origin. Sure, he threatened you a bit, but he'd still help you out.

I tend to agree with Merrill's assessment of the situation; all spirits are alien and potentially dangerous. The classification of demons, and the separation of demons and spirits, this is a falsehood, a catagorization of them placed in universe to help make sense of beings that you can't make sense of.

True but it seemed like there was no good will behind his help, in comparison to the selflessness of Valor or Justice in Awakening. Though all spirits may be dangerous but the classification of carnivorous spirits still seems valid as it denotes their predatory nature towards mortals.

Valor kinda wanted to kill you too (unless you proved to him that he wanted to kill you, then he back pedalled) and Justice in awakening is not helping you out of selflessness. He is lost and tries to achieve Justice for his hosts (the dead guy).

The only spirit that might have acted selfless that we have prove of is Wynne's and we don't really knew that spirits motivation as it acted too rash and almost knocked itself out.

[The Hierophant]

esper wrote...

Valor kinda wanted to kill you too (unless you proved to him that he wanted to kill you, then he back pedalled) and Justice in awakening is not helping you out of selflessness. He is lost and tries to achieve Justice for his hosts (the dead guy).

Good catch on Valor as i now remember that he tested the mage warden to see if they are worthy of using his weaponry.

In regards to Justice my post is about him aiding the souls of the Blackmarsh's townspeople against the Baroness.

The only spirit that might have acted selfless that we have prove of is Wynne's and we don't really knew that spirits motivation as it acted too rash and almost knocked itself out.

True but my stance is that despite all spirits being dangerous that there's a clear distinction between the carnivorous spirits (demons), and non predatory spirits in regards to their demeanor, which makes a classification between them valid. Terms like good and evil are subjective though.

[esper]

The Hierophant wrote...

esper wrote...

Valor kinda wanted to kill you too (unless you proved to him that he wanted to kill you, then he back pedalled) and Justice in awakening is not helping you out of selflessness. He is lost and tries to achieve Justice for his hosts (the dead guy).

Good catch on Valor as i now remember that he tested the mage warden to see if they are worthy of using his weaponry.

In regards to Justice my post is about him aiding the souls of the Blackmarsh's townspeople against the Baroness.

The only spirit that might have acted selfless that we have prove of is Wynne's and we don't really knew that spirits motivation as it acted too rash and almost knocked itself out.

True but my stance is that despite all spirits being dangerous that there's a clear distinction between the carnivorous spirits (demons), and non predatory spirits in regards to their demeanor, which makes a classification between them valid. Terms like good and evil are subjective though.

I do not think that there are two types of Fade beings because they behave so differently. But I still personally hold that the demons are the less dangerous kind.

As for Justice and Blackmarsh souls that was abo****ely not selfless. He knew that aiding them would 'kill' them and did not tell them. Why? Properly because they might not all have been interested in just avening themself. Some off them might have wanted to rest in peace, but some of them would not have and Justice did not (and was not intersted in) giving them the option. He was just interested in justice.

With the spirits you have to basically redefine their virtue if you want to avoid a confrontation (as with Valour), with demons you can negotiatate, trick, betray and outright blackmail and force them away. Of course that doesn't mean demons are not dangerous just... dangerous in a way that is easier to damage control, ismply because you have more way of it.

As for good and evil, I am with Merrill there. Such distinctions are meaningless since demons are predotory and spirits have no understanding of the nuances of morality.

[The Hierophant]

Esper the Baroness's victims were as good as dead when considering how long they were seperated from their bodies. Justice out of a misguided notion of fairness, telling the spirits their fate could've resulted in them succumbing to their rage, anger, sorrow or despair and would only create more demons.

The only danger with non carnivorous spirits is the assumption that they're not capable of violence, while they can be transformed into demons. If the codex is correct then spirits of virtue rarely cross the veil into Thedas versus the predatory spirits who actively seek to do so.

In regards to tricking a demon or negotiating with demons, successfully doing so is not that common as we've mostly seen mortals falling victim to them, while the demon will attempt to possess the intended victim at a later date like with Conner and Marethari.

The PC and friends may be uber characters who can combat nearly any demonic threat but the same can't be said for everyone else living in Thedas.

[Eveangaline]

Why?

[clone wars]

but the darkspawn had a Civil War

[Lokiwithrope]

clone wars wrote...

but the darkspawn had a Civil War

That was spawned from a random mutation. It had nthing to do with spirits.

[Xilizhra]

I'm all for this, in truth.

[Taleroth]

clone wars wrote...

but the darkspawn had a Civil War

And spirits fight demons probably pretty regularly.

Modifié par Taleroth, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:20 .

[Medhia Nox]

@krul2k: Because people want every demented and perverse impulse to be excusable.

Good demons - can we eradicate them permanently from Thedas and the Fade? Those would be good demons.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:22 .

[BlueMagitek]

I think I would prefer an encounter with a demon where the two of you can help each other without impeding the other's goals.

For example, the demon can teach a foreign branch of magic to local apostates or, alternatively, put local apostates in a stupor while you come in to arrest /capture them. It doesn't want a person. It just wants a rival demon removed from the picture and can get you access to them.

Are you willing to make a deal with this creature? After all, you're just destroying another demon, something you'd probably do anyway, and it's really just offering to give you a reward for that...

Edit:

The demon is still a demon, not a spirit, but you don't know any ulterior motives that it may have.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Taleroth]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The demon is still a demon, not a spirit, but you don't know any ulterior motives that it may have.

If you don't know its ulterior motives, then you don't know if it's a demon or a spirit.

The only difference is that one's a jerk and one's not. Justice was a spirit. Except when he was a jerk, then he was a demon.

Modifié par Taleroth, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:27 .

[Medhia Nox]

I'd be far more interested in genuinely dealing with a spirit.

[Red Panda]

Demons are fair. All they want is compensation. They are honorable like the Qunari, being a very logical place.

Yet many condemn them for this logic. Thedas is illogical, and will hopefully be righted when the veil fades completely.

[esper]

The Hierophant wrote...

Esper the Baroness's victims were as good as dead when considering how long they were seperated from their bodies. Justice out of a misguided notion of fairness, telling the spirits their fate could've resulted in them succumbing to their rage, anger, sorrow or despair and would only create more demons.

The only danger with non carnivorous spirits is the assumption that they're not capable of violence, while they can be transformed into demons. If the codex is correct then spirits of virtue rarely cross the veil into Thedas versus the predatory spirits who actively seek to do so.

In regards to tricking a demon or negotiating with demons, successfully doing so is not that common as we've mostly seen mortals falling victim to them, while the demon will attempt to possess the intended victim at a later date like with Conner and Marethari.

The PC and friends may be uber characters who can combat nearly any demonic threat but the same can't be said for everyone else living in Thedas.

Late answer, sorry. It is not an question of wherever the Baroness victims could be saved, or wherever it was a good to kill them or not. It was the question of wherever Justice act were selfless. It was not since he did not care for the victims opinion on the act, just how he could install what he thought was justice. Which is something you cannot deny is the thing most important to him. As I remember you can even point this out in game and Justice admits it.

No the danger from the 'virtues' is that they hold everyone to an their versions of ideals. No human can live up to an ideal, espically not ideals that might means something different to the different person. Justice was always a spirit of vengance, that was a core part of his idea of justice.

And it is not about wherever or not it is common. It is wherever it is doable. It is. You simply just have more options when dealing wiht a demon. At least what we have seen so far in game.

And just to make it clear. I think that all kind of Fade entities are extremely dangerous and the best course of actions would be to run far, far away and avoid them. I am just saying that I personally would rather cross a demon than a spirit.

[Trolldrool]

To me it seems like even neutral or "benevolent" spirits can become demons if they enter the mortal realm. To be more precise, in the Fade, they are sentient incarnations of virtues and emotions. But they're also restricted to those virtues they represent. A spirit of rage can never not be angry. Even when laughing, it's always with extreme prejudice and spite towards all others. They are unable to understand gray areas because they don't encounter such things until they reach the mortal realm. Everything is black and white.