199 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

HiroVoid wrote...

There's also the fact that I've seen Gaider come into the forums at multiple points saying there's a difference, though I don't remember the exact quotes.  Then, I think I remember a quote about how each demon has a corrupted spirit version such as how Faith's corrupted form is apparently pride. 

Gaider never said the Dalish were wrong about spirits. Merrill (and the Dalish) acknowledge spirits are different, just like humans are, without buying into the view that Demons are embodiments of different sins and being the First Children of the Maker.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know that the implication is that Dalish beliefs are that spirits and demons aren't really any different considering that sometimes they use the word "demon," only that they believe that all spirits are dangerous, which they are (potentially). I thought I remembered even Merrill uses the word demon at least once.

Witherfang and Vengeance aren't demons and don't behave like demons, but they are both still very dangerous.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Gwinever]

Thinking of Cole actually just made me go check on the wiki about the litany on adralla.

from the wiki

Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons.

Her efforts went unappreciated in her native Tevinter, however. After three different magisters attempted to have her killed, she fled the country, choosing to take refuge in the land of Blessed Andraste's birth. She spent the remainder of her days with the Circle in Ferelden.
The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.


Basicly the litany dispels any magic that effects the mind wether it's demonic or bloodmagic.
Lambert thinks he is a demon but it is in no way a confirmation.

Both the way demons feed and bloodmagic basicly works could explain cole's ability's.
So if cole is a bloodmage he might have been able to extend his life with it (just like Avernus did) and still be affected by the litany regardless.

So wether he is human or a demon/spirit i hope they delve into it in Inquisition

Modifié par Gwinever, 19 octobre 2013 - 07:26 .

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

There's also the fact that I've seen Gaider come into the forums at multiple points saying there's a difference, though I don't remember the exact quotes.  Then, I think I remember a quote about how each demon has a corrupted spirit version such as how Faith's corrupted form is apparently pride. 

Gaider never said the Dalish were wrong about spirits. Merrill (and the Dalish) acknowledge spirits are different, just like humans are, without buying into the view that Demons are embodiments of different sins and being the First Children of the Maker.

Demons embodying sins is from Tevinter Magisters studying the fade as dreamers.  It has all of nothing to do with the Chantry.

[Lokiwithrope]

"Every cyborg is a person. People are different."

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider never said the Dalish were wrong about spirits. Merrill (and the Dalish) acknowledge spirits are different, just like humans are, without buying into the view that Demons are embodiments of different sins and being the First Children of the Maker.

Demons embodying sins is from Tevinter Magisters studying the fade as dreamers.  It has all of nothing to do with the Chantry. 

You're conflating the facets of spirits with the religious interpretation of these beings, which shapes their perception by Andrastians as 'demons', the shunned First Children of the Maker who turned their back on their creator in jealousy over humanity. Anders' dialogue makes it clear that the Andrastian view holds demons as embodying different sins, which obviously isn't held by the Dalish, who follow the Creators.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't know that the implication is that Dalish beliefs are that spirits and demons aren't really any different considering that sometimes they use the word "demon," only that they believe that all spirits are dangerous, which they are (potentially). I thought I remembered even Merrill uses the word demon at least once.

Witherfang and Vengeance aren't demons and don't behave like demons, but they are both still very dangerous.

It's clearly defined as an Andrastian distinction in the religious discussion between Anders and Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons. 

Merrill: Did I ask you? 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations.  The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders is only talking about the origin of spirits there, not necessarily their behavior and nature.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2013 - 08:18 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're conflating the facets of spirits with the religious interpretation of these beings, which shapes their perception by Andrastians as 'demons', the shunned First Children of the Maker who turned their back on their creator in jealousy over humanity. Anders' dialogue makes it clear that the Andrastian view holds demons as embodying different sins, which obviously isn't held by the Dalish, who follow the Creators.

Sloth Demon Codex Entry:
"The truth is that demons of sloth are named so because this is the portion of the human psyche that they feed upon. Doubt. Apathy. Entropy. They seek to spread these things. The sloth demon hides in its forms, a master of shapes and disguises, always in the last place you look... and from its hiding place it spreads its influence. A community afflicted by a demon of sloth could soon become a dilapidated pit where injustices are allowed to pass without comment, and none of the residents could be aware that such a change has even taken place. The sloth demon weakens, tires, tears at the edges of consciousness and would much rather render its victim helpless than engage in a true conflict. Such creatures are best faced only with a great deal of will, and only with an eye to piercing their many disguises."

Desire Demon Codex Entry:

Far more intelligent than the bestial hunger and rage demons, and more ambitious than the demons of sloth, these dark spirits are among the most skilled at tempting mages into possession. Many who serve the whims of a desire demon never realize it. They are manipulated by illusions and deceit if not outright mind control, although these demons are reluctant to resort to such crude measures. Instead, they seem to take great pleasure in corruption. The greater the deceit, the greater their victory.
Only demons of pride prove more fearsome opponents when roused. Their abilities to affect the mind allow them to assume disguises and even alter the environment to their purposes, not to mention the great strength and speed they possess if they should have to resort to more physical means. Most often a desire demon will attempt to bargain its way to freedom if overpowered—many stories exist that depict mages defeating desire demons to the point where a wish can be wrested from them. It should be noted that in such stories the demon almost always gets the upper hand even when the mage thinks his wish has been granted."
 
As evidenced by these codexs, the hierarchy of demons steams not from religious belief but from academic study; what we have here is the observation of empirical evidence that is then used to determine what part of the human psyche does a demon feed from; what "sin" they represent. In fact, the demons themselves will refer to each other as "demon", "sloth" or "pride". Likewise, Spirits will be the first to admit that they embody one virtue.

If the Dalish wish to dismiss the tale of the Maker turning his back on the spirits, that is perfectly fine. However, they can't dismiss myriads of research simply because it was perform by humans. And if they do so, then they are in the wrong and not the humans.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders is only talking about the origin of spirits there, not necessarily their behavior and nature.

Merrill addresses the nature of a sloth demon when the attempt to rescue Feynriel is made; she knows there are clear differences among all the denizens of the Beyond (or the Fade, in Andrastian terms). Understanding the differences doesn't mean Merrill or the Dalish have to adhere to the view that Spirits and Demons are separated by a schism defined by the Andrastian religion.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that spirits and demons are different. Even spirits (ala Justice) themselves believe there is a clearly defined difference between spirits and demons.

[Br3admax]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that spirits and demons are different. Even spirits (ala Justice) themselves believe there is a clearly defined difference between spirits and demons.

Shush, Merrill knows more than Justice. Merrill is an elf. 

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that spirits and demons are different.

As Merrill points out, humans are varied and different, but nevertheless human. Prescribing some religious definition between Spirits and Demons because the Andrastian faith says so doesn't mean the Dalish have to subscribe to their religious ideology.

I really don't see why some pro-Chantry posters take such issue with the Dalish having different views on spirits and the Beyond. It's really getting a bit much at this point.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Even spirits (ala Justice) themselves believe there is a clearly defined difference between spirits and demons.

Justice says they are influenced by the dreams of mortals, which is brought up when the Maker is discussed.

[Br3admax]

Maybe because the only Dalish who agrees with that view point is shunned because of it. You don't have to be pro-Chantry to see it. I've never seen anything to believe that Merrill is trying to accept and older opinion more than the current one.

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that spirits and demons are different. Even spirits (ala Justice) themselves believe there is a clearly defined difference between spirits and demons.

Shush, Merrill knows more than Justice. Merrill is an elf. 

Justice openly admits that the denizens of the Beyond are influenced by mortals, as he explicitly says to the Warden-Commander. As such, I don't see how that influence negates the Dalish views on spirits or the Beyond when the spirits are influenced and shaped by the dreams of mortals, many of whom are Andrastians.

You're also not contributing to this discussion with snide remarks.

[Br3admax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that spirits and demons are different. Even spirits (ala Justice) themselves believe there is a clearly defined difference between spirits and demons.

Shush, Merrill knows more than Justice. Merrill is an elf. 

Justice openly admits that the denizens of the Beyond are influenced by mortals, as he explicitly says to the Warden-Commander. As such, I don't see how that influence negates the Dalish views on spirits or the Beyond when the spirits are influenced and shaped by the dreams of mortals, many of whom are Andrastians.

You're also not contributing to this discussion with snide remarks.

In the eight minutes that it took you to make this response, I'm sure that you spent two of them reading the one above. And Justice does not agree with the point you are trying to make by saying that Demons and Spirits are both vulnerable to dreams. Nor does it support any view that somehow dreams of Andrastians make Demons or Spirits what they are. That's something that I've only seen you support. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 19 octobre 2013 - 10:16 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that spirits and demons are different.

As Merrill points out, humans are varied and different, but nevertheless human. Prescribing some religious definition between Spirits and Demons because the Andrastian faith says so doesn't mean the Dalish have to subscribe to their religious ideology.

I really don't see why some pro-Chantry posters take such issue with the Dalish having different views on spirits and the Beyond. It's really getting a bit much at this point.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Even spirits (ala Justice) themselves believe there is a clearly defined difference between spirits and demons.

Justice says they are influenced by the dreams of mortals, which is brought up when the Maker is discussed.

I don't know why you keep trying to make this about Andrastianism or religous differences, it isn't. I sometimes get the impression you seem to prefer to imagine Dalish history and culture to be more different from humanity's than perhaps they actually are.

Justice doesn't know much about the Maker, he only knows that some spirits beleive in a creator that may or may not be a result the dreams of mortals who believe in one. He also only knows of Andraste from Kristoff's memories. He's not Andrastian.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2013 - 10:19 .

[Wulfram]

I don't doubt that the demons/spirits distinction is something of an oversimplification - I don't think Vengeance fits nicely on either side - but it's shown enough validity to not be dismissed as arbitrary.

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

Maybe because the only Dalish who agrees with that view point is shunned because of it. You don't have to be pro-Chantry to see it. I've never seen anything to believe that Merrill is trying to accept and older opinion more than the current one.

I doubt any Dalish who follows the Creators believes that Spirits and Demons are the First Children of the Maker, or that Demons embody different sins of humanity. The Dalish don't adhere to Andrastian views on spirits or the Beyond; it's as simple as that. I really don't get why some pro-Chantry posters are treating this as though it's a debate that can be won; the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views.

[Br3admax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Maybe because the only Dalish who agrees with that view point is shunned because of it. You don't have to be pro-Chantry to see it. I've never seen anything to believe that Merrill is trying to accept and older opinion more than the current one.

I doubt any Dalish who follows the Creators believes that Spirits and Demons are the First Children of the Maker, or that Demons embody different sins of humanity. The Dalish don't adhere to Andrastian views on spirits or the Beyond; it's as simple as that. I really don't get why some pro-Chantry posters are treating this as though it's a debate that can be won; the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views.

You keep using the word pro-Chantry. I guess it means, "Does not agree with me."  and not, "Supports the Chantry." And I'm still waiting for the evidence. The burden of proof falls to you, sense you are making the claim. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Maybe because the only Dalish who agrees with that view point is shunned because of it. You don't have to be pro-Chantry to see it. I've never seen anything to believe that Merrill is trying to accept and older opinion more than the current one.

I doubt any Dalish who follows the Creators believes that Spirits and Demons are the First
Children of the Maker, or that Demons embody different sins of humanity. The Dalish don't adhere to Andrastian views on spirits or the Beyond; it's as simple as that. I really don't get why some pro-Chantry posters are treating this as though it's a debate that can be won; the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views.

What you don't seem to be getting is that nobody is saying the Dalish adhere exactly to everything Andrastians believe about spirits and demons. Obviously they don't specifically believe spirits are the first children of the Maker. But you don't have to believe all that to believe that spirits and demons are different. Justice and Morrigan don't have Andrastian views on spirits and demons but they do seem to regard them as different by nature.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2013 - 10:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt any Dalish who follows the Creators believes that Spirits and Demons are the First Children of the Maker, or that Demons embody different sins of humanity. The Dalish don't adhere to Andrastian views on spirits or the Beyond; it's as simple as that. I really don't get why some pro-Chantry posters are treating this as though it's a debate that can be won; the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views.

You keep using the word pro-Chantry. I guess it means, "Does not agree with me."  and not, "Supports the Chantry."

Considering the people who are trying to turn this into a debate or act like only the Chantry view of spirits and the Beyond exists, you'd be wrong.

Br3ad wrote...

And I'm still waiting for the evidence. The burden of proof falls to you, sense you are making the claim. 

Considering that I'm not trying to invalidate the Chantry view over the Dalish view, I don't have to do anything of the kind. I'm simply pointing out that the Dalish have their own view on spirits and the Beyond.

[Br3admax]

No I mean show me where it is said that all Dalish believe this way. Or even a majority of them. Go one. I'll wait.

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

No I mean show me where it is said that all Dalish believe this way. Or even a majority of them. Go one. I'll wait.

I take it you're completely ignoring Anders and Merrill discussing their religious differences? The Dalish believe in the Creators, not the Maker. Why would you ever think the Dalish would share Andrastian views on the Fade or spirits when they follow a different religion than the Chantry? Merrill's admonishment of Anders that all spirits are dangerous is echoed in WoT, where it's said the Dalish avoid magic that involves spirits because they view spirits as dangerous (page 104).

[General TSAR]

@OP.

Demons are inherently evil.