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[Br3admax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I mean show me where it is said that all Dalish believe this way. Or even a majority of them. Go one. I'll wait.

I take it you're completely ignoring Anders and Merrill discussing their religious differences? The Dalish believe in the Creators, not the Maker. Why would you ever think the Dalish would share Andrastian views on the Fade or spirits when they follow a different religion than the Chantry? Merrill's admonishment of Anders that all spirits are dangerous is echoed in WoT, where it's said the Dalish avoid magic that involves spirits because they view spirits as dangerous (page 104).

Uh huh, and none of that says that Spirits and Demons are controlled by Andrastian thoughts. Nor does it support your theory that Dalsih see no distinction. 

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I take it you're completely ignoring Anders and Merrill discussing their religious differences? The Dalish believe in the Creators, not the Maker. Why would you ever think the Dalish would share Andrastian views on the Fade or spirits when they follow a different religion than the Chantry? Merrill's admonishment of Anders that all spirits are dangerous is echoed in WoT, where it's said the Dalish avoid magic that involves spirits because they view spirits as dangerous (page 104).

Uh huh, and none of that says that Spirits and Demons are controlled by Andrastian thoughts.

I pointed out that Justice explicitly says in Awakening that spirits are influenced by mortals and their dreams, and Justice doesn't even seem to be aware of Dalish elves - when you take him to the Wending Woods.

Br3ad wrote...

Nor does it support your theory that Dalsih see no distinction. 

That's because it's clearly defined as an Andrastian distinction in the religious discussion between Anders and Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons. 

Merrill: Did I ask you? 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations.  The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I've always been a big believer that if any demon has the ability to be 'good' it is the Sloth demon. In the mage origin the Sloth demon we see in the fade helps the mage on his harrowing just like the spirit did. There were no strings attached no ulterior motive it just helped the mage and went back to sleep.

I believe it is the nature of the Sloth is neutral and its alignment is determined by the individual demon. Even the Sloth during the Circle quest believes that its helping our characters. It honestly wants to give us what we want the most and even wants to try harder. True it was sucking the life from our bodies but it might not have seen that as an evil act rather something that it just required to give people what they want.

The Sloth also comes across as the most intelligent of the demons by far. The Sloth in the Circle quest is the leader of all the other demons we see in the fade even demons that are suppose to be above him. In DA2 all the other demons in the Fade just mindlessly attack our character when they are found out but its the Sloth that does the intelligent thing and tries to make an arrangement with our character so both sides get something that they want. With all this potential I'd love to see a Sloth companion or at least a wider use of the Sloth demon in the next game.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I take it you're completely ignoring Anders and Merrill discussing their religious differences? The Dalish believe in the Creators, not the Maker. Why would you ever think the Dalish would share Andrastian views on the Fade or spirits when they follow a different religion than the Chantry? Merrill's admonishment of Anders that all spirits are dangerous is echoed in WoT, where it's said the Dalish avoid magic that involves spirits because they view spirits as dangerous (page 104).

Uh huh, and none of that says that Spirits and Demons are controlled by Andrastian thoughts.

I pointed out that Justice explicitly says in Awakening that spirits are influenced by mortals and their dreams, and Justice doesn't even seem to be aware of Dalish elves - when you take him to the Wending Woods.

Br3ad wrote...

Nor does it support your theory that Dalsih see no distinction. 

That's because it's clearly defined as an Andrastian distinction in the religious discussion between Anders and Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons. 

Merrill: Did I ask you? 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations.  The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

As I said before, that only explains the supposed origins of spirits and demons. You don't have to believe that to believe that there is more an an arbitrary distinction between the two. I think the Chantry theology Anders tells Merrill is their attempt to explain why spirits and demons are different, not that they are different at all.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As I said before, that only explains the supposed origins of spirits and demons. You don't have to believe that to believe that there is more an an arbitrary distinction between the two. I think the Chantry theology Anders tells Merrill is their attempt to explain why spirits and demons are different, not that they are different at all.

That isn't incorrect when Anders is addressing that demons are categorized as embodiments of different sins, which blatantly addresses that the view of Spirits and Demons is seen through the spectrum of the Andrastian faith, as we know with the exchange between Anders and Merrill. 

Considering that Merrill cautions Hawke about the Torpor using sloth against mortals, it's clear she understands the differences between spirits without sharing the Andrastian distinction of them being Spirits and Demons; to the Dalish, they are simply spirits. 

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:15 .

[Gwinever]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I've always been a big believer that if any demon has the ability to be 'good' it is the Sloth demon. In the mage origin the Sloth demon we see in the fade helps the mage on his harrowing just like the spirit did. There were no strings attached no ulterior motive it just helped the mage and went back to sleep.[/qoute]

Wrong, at first he has no interest in helping the mage, after being pushed he challenges the mage to a riddle game if the mage wins he will teach mouse, if he/she loses he will poses him/her, and regardless wether the mage is succesfull or not he thinks the mage would fail the harrowing anyway so has no interrest in putting in small strings. Spirits are bound to their word regardless of the emotion/vitue they embody thus any demon/spirit can be coaxed into a deal, this doesn't just apply for sloth demons.

[qoute]I believe it is the nature of the Sloth is neutral and its alignment is determined by the individual demon. Even the Sloth during the Circle quest believes that its helping our characters. It honestly wants to give us what we want the most and even wants to try harder. True it was sucking the life from our bodies but it might not have seen that as an evil act rather something that it just required to give people what they want.

The nature of sloth is lazyness and his allignment lies nowhere else but to itself firstly and the more powerfull demons that control it's domain wich usually share dreamers with weaker demons to keep them happy.
The sloth demon in the circle doesn't believe it's helping you at all, he puts you to sleep so he can feed, if he was helping you he would grand you safe acces to the top of the freaking tower with the only term being you leaving him alone (like the hunger demon hawke meets in the deep roads).
ps, no demon sees what it's doing as an evil act

The Sloth also comes across as the most intelligent of the demons by far. The Sloth in the Circle quest is the leader of all the other demons we see in the fade even demons that are suppose to be above him. In DA2 all the other demons in the Fade just mindlessly attack our character when they are found out but its the Sloth that does the intelligent thing and tries to make an arrangement with our character so both sides get something that they want. With all this potential I'd love to see a Sloth companion or at least a wider use of the Sloth demon in the next game.

I think your granting IQ here on the basis of what is infact lazyness, he sees a easy way in hawke to get what he wants while he prolly has a decent chance of succes to get what he wants but it requires less effort and power to get it through hawke.
Demons also vary in power regardless of what they embody wich allows them to dominate other demons, the ranking is based on intelligence, not based on raw power/ability. The sloth demon in the circle is extremely powerfull and yet it is just a subordinate of the Pride demon that took possesion of Uldred

[Cainhurst Crow]

You do know a demon is, by their own choice and nature, unhelpful and two faced. Any "help" would come at a price, most likely the lives of others.

If they were looking to help, they would not be demons, but spirits. Maybe there could be dark spirits who aren't quite demons, but frankly, I'm not sure I'd trust them either.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except we've already found multiple examples of people who don't believe in the Maker and who acknowledge the distinction, so obviously it isn't just an Andrastian distinction. Even Merrill herself uses the word "demon" more than once when referring to the pride demon from the Night Terrors quest.

"Spirits" is sometimes used as general term for all denizens of the fade, demons included. Other times it's used as shorthand for the "benevolent spirits" that are distinct from demons.

And just as an aside, funnily enough World of Thedas seems to explicitly say that Dalish did see the Fade as the home of their gods.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 12:26 .

[Dayze]

Technically speaking what you deal with in the dead roads was a "fade beast" and not referred to as a demon.

Don't know if there was any practical distinction there, since its graphics was basically a pride demon but there you go.

That and it seemed much hard to effectively kill than most other things.....

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except we've already found multiple examples of people who don't believe in the Maker and who acknowledge the distinction, so obviously it isn't just an Andrastian distinction. Even Merrill herself uses the word "demon" more than once when referring to the pride demon from the Night Terrors quest.

"Spirits" is sometimes used as general term for all denizens of the fade, demons included. Other times it's used as shorthand for the "benevolent spirits" that are distinct from demons.

They are using Andrastian terminology in those scenarios. And since WoT addresses that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, they clearly don't think there are beneficial spirits, so why do you continually try to denigrate that the Dalish have their own cultural and religious view on this?

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And just as an aside, funnily enough World of Thedas seems to explicitly say that Dalish did see the Fade as the home of their gods.

Present tense, the Dalish believe the Creators are now trapped in the Eternal City.

[Xilizhra]

The nature of sloth is lazyness and his allignment lies nowhere else but to itself firstly and the more powerfull demons that control it's domain wich usually share dreamers with weaker demons to keep them happy.
The sloth demon in the circle doesn't believe it's helping you at all, he puts you to sleep so he can feed, if he was helping you he would grand you safe acces to the top of the freaking tower with the only term being you leaving him alone (like the hunger demon hawke meets in the deep roads).
ps, no demon sees what it's doing as an evil act

Wrong demon. The sloth demon in Broken Circle is quite malevolent, yes, but the one you encounter as a mage during the Harrowing is grumpy but straightforward and honest.

[Sir DeLoria]

There are no benevolent demons. Demons aren't just any spirits, they are evil and not to be trusted.

In other words, kill it, kill it with fire.

[General TSAR]

Necanor wrote...

In other words, kill it, kill it with fire.

Unless it's a Rage Demon.

[Cainhurst Crow]

General TSAR wrote...

Necanor wrote...

In other words, kill it, kill it with fire.

Unless it's a Rage Demon.

Kill it with burn heal.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Xilizhra wrote...

The nature of sloth is lazyness and his allignment lies nowhere else but to itself firstly and the more powerfull demons that control it's domain wich usually share dreamers with weaker demons to keep them happy.
The sloth demon in the circle doesn't believe it's helping you at all, he puts you to sleep so he can feed, if he was helping you he would grand you safe acces to the top of the freaking tower with the only term being you leaving him alone (like the hunger demon hawke meets in the deep roads).
ps, no demon sees what it's doing as an evil act

Wrong demon. The sloth demon in Broken Circle is quite malevolent, yes, but the one you encounter as a mage during the Harrowing is grumpy but straightforward and honest.

Which goes to my point that the Sloth is able to be an honest being that doesn't by definition always want to kill you. The Sloth in Broken Circle is looking at a mage in his/her Harrowing the dream situation that ever demon looks for and he doesn't want to hurt you but instead helps you.

The Sloth in DA2 offers you a deal and then once he gets it he becomes immensely powerful maybe even strong enough to kill you without effort but instead of doing that he makes good his deal and gives you what you want and leaves you alone. In both those cases we see the Sloth being a demon of honest nature.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except we've already found multiple examples of people who don't believe in the Maker and who acknowledge the distinction, so obviously it isn't just an Andrastian distinction. Even Merrill herself uses the word "demon" more than once when referring to the pride demon from the Night Terrors quest.

"Spirits" is sometimes used as general term for all denizens of the fade, demons included. Other times it's used as shorthand for the "benevolent spirits" that are distinct from demons.

They are using Andrastian terminology in those scenarios. And since WoT addresses that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, they clearly don't think there are beneficial spirits, so why do you continually try to denigrate that the Dalish have their own cultural and religious view on this?

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And just as an aside, funnily enough World of Thedas seems to explicitly say that Dalish did see the Fade as the home of their gods.

Present tense, the Dalish believe the Creators are now trapped in the Eternal City.

If other people use it then it's not just Andrastian terminology or just an Andrastian distinction. Especially for people who know nothing of Andraste or the Maker like Justice. Or Morrigan who knows little to nothing about Chantry dogma beyond the basics.

The Dalish see all spirits as dangerous, that doesn't mean they see them all as the same. One can be dangerous and still not be a demon.

"The Eternal City" is in the heart of the Fade. Also Merrill says "we've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods."

[Xilizhra]

"The Eternal City" is in the heart of the Fade. Also Merrill says "we've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods."

Home, no. Prison, perhaps.

[Dayze]

If I remember the desire demon w/connor seemed to think it had done right by its deal as well.

I think the biggest problems with spirits or demons is their lack of knowledge of the material world and true understanding of humanity.

Its why trickster whims are so dangerous, they don't understand mortality so don't truly understand what it means to kill or hurt something.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish legends say they were Creators and Forgotten Ones were imprisoned in their respective homes by Fen'Harel.

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Dalish legends say they were Creators and Forgotten Ones were imprisoned in their respective homes by Fen'Harel.

Isn't the City also supposed to be beyond the Fade/Beyond, or something? In addition to its heart? It's not necessarily a contradiction either way.

[Boycott Bioware]

HiroVoid wrote...
There are actual differences. Spirits embody positive emotions while demons embody negative ones. Demons also try and possess and many other nasty things that spirits don't really have a care for. They are very similar in that they're both denizens of the fade who when killed in the mortal world probably just appear back in the fade again, but they have different purposes and needs. Anders is right in that there's a difference between them, but he was wrong in how he thought there was no danger with a spirit. Merrill is right in how there's no safe spirit of the fade, but she's wrong in that there is a difference between spirits and demons.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You think the Maker is Fen'Harel? The Andrastian distinction of Spirits and Demons, with Spirits as the First Children of the Maker and Demons as Spirits who turned their backs on the Maker, is why the Dalish don't share the Andrastian distinction between Spirits and Demons, instead seeing them all as spirits who are dangerous. I know some other posters speculate that the Maker is Fen'Harel.

I wonder if the Qunari have any distinctions about the denizens of the Fade, since they see it as the land of the dead. I'd also like to know if the dwarves have any musings on the Fade and spirits.

Actually, spirits and demons are the very same thing, it just black and white, dark and light, both are of the same being...the dark one you call demon, the light one you call spirit...as black people you call Africans, and white people you call Europeans, yellow people you call Asians...we are all human....that is what Merill trying to say

So, The Maker is the father of spirits, that's make The Maker by it's nature the same with His children...unless "children" doesn't mean literally...such as "Israelite are children of God", the world "children" don't mean literal children

The issue is like the nature of Jesus between Christians and Muslims, for Christian Jesus is literally son of God and God, for Muslim "Son of God" is a title and not literal son because Jewish already have tradition calling God as "The Father" because they are "Children of God", so for Muslim "Son of God" originally a title of honor

The similar thing here between Dalish and Andrasterians

As for Qunari, we can see Arvaraad dialogue if you let Ketojan be killed by him, Arvaraad say that he don't know what demon that spurred the words into Ketojan mouth to Hawke, and Hawke is "contaminated" by it...we can assume for Qunari, all denizens of the Fade are demons

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If other people use it then it's not just Andrastian terminology or just an Andrastian distinction.

It's Andrastian vernacular, and the Dalish use it when speaking to Andrastians, while having their own views and terminology. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Especially for people who know nothing of Andraste or the Maker like Justice. Or Morrigan who knows little to nothing about Chantry dogma beyond the basics.

The Dalish see all spirits as dangerous, that doesn't mean they see them all as the same. One can be dangerous and still not be a demon.

The conversations between Merrill and Anders makes it clear the Dalish have their own religious and cultural view on this, and I'm getting tired of defending what's actually said by the characters because some pro-Chantry posters can't deal with the fact that the Dalish don't adhere to the Chantry's religious and cultural views.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"The Eternal City" is in the heart of the Fade. Also Merrill says "we've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods."

The Creators have been imprisoned since before Arlathan fell; I doubt the Dalish ever saw the Beyond as the home of their gods, as opposed to the Eternal City serving as their prison.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If other people use it then it's not just Andrastian terminology or just an Andrastian distinction.

It's Andrastian vernacular, and the Dalish use it when speaking to Andrastians, while having their own views and terminology. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Especially for people who know nothing of Andraste or the Maker like Justice. Or Morrigan who knows little to nothing about Chantry dogma beyond the basics.

The Dalish see all spirits as dangerous, that doesn't mean they see them all as the same. One can be dangerous and still not be a demon.

The conversations between Merrill and Anders makes it clear the Dalish have their own religious and cultural view on this, and I'm getting tired of defending what's actually said by the characters because some pro-Chantry posters can't deal with the fact that the Dalish don't adhere to the Chantry's religious and cultural views.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"The Eternal City" is in the heart of the Fade. Also Merrill says "we've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods."

The Creators have been imprisoned since before Arlathan fell; I doubt the Dalish ever saw the Beyond as the home of their gods, as opposed to the Eternal City serving as their prison.

It's not Andrastian vernacular if other people use it too.

We all know what's said in the conversation. I don't agree it makes clear exactly what you think it makes clear. And it doesn't mean I or any other people somehow "can't hadle" the fact that Dalish culture is different than Andrastian culture. It's equally likely you "can't candle" that Dalish perspectives don't radically disagree with the Chantry about everything.

The Dalish consider themselves last remnant of the Elvhenan, their history goes back to the days before the Fall of Arlathan and they believe they worship the same gods. And especially since the Black City/Eternal City is supposed to be within the Fade/Beyond, it seems somewhat contradictory to what Merrill said.

Truth be told, I wasn't a huge fan of this new reveal, (for a couple of different reasons) but it is apparently what the Dalish believe about the Fade and the Black City.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's not Andrastian vernacular if other people use it too.

That line of thought makes absolutely no sense. Some teenagers outside the States curse in American English; following your logic, it's not American English because those teenagers are using those terms.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

We all know what's said in the conversation. I don't agree it makes clear exactly what you think it makes clear. And it doesn't mean I or any other people somehow "can't hadle" the fact that Dalish culture is different than Andrastian culture. It's equally likely you "can't candle" that Dalish perspectives don't radically disagree with the Chantry about everything.

Cultures have their own perspectives; they aren't identical to each other. You're disputing information that's explicitly provided by the characters. In a religious debate between Anders and Merrill, no less.

And this isn't the first time you've tried to argue that only the Chantry version of an event should be, while trying to disprove an alternative perspective.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Dalish consider themselves last remnant of the Elvhenan, their history goes back to the days before the Fall of Arlathan and they believe they worship the same gods. And especially since the Black City/Eternal City is supposed to be within the Fade/Beyond, it seems somewhat contradictory to what Merrill said.

Truth be told I wasn't a huge fan of this new reveal, but it is apparently what the Dalish believe about the Fade and the Black City. 

It's not contradictory when the Creators have been imprisoned since the inception of the Dales, so the Dalish don't see it as the home of their gods. And are you seriously arguing that Merrill doesn't know the lore of her own people?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That line of thought makes absolutely no sense. Some teenagers outside the States curse in American English; following your logic, it's not American English because those teenagers are using those terms.

There are also words that mean the same thing in multiple versions of english. If we follow this analogy I think ancient Tevinter would have been aware of the distinction too, so the word wouldn't have been American English to start with.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Cultures have their own perspectives; they aren't identical to each other. You're disputing information that's explicitly provided by the characters. In a religious debate between Anders and Merrill, no less.

And this isn't the first time you've tried to argue that only the Chantry version of an event should be, while trying to disprove an alternative perspective.

Let me see if I can break this down as simply as possible.

The Dalish have a different perspective on spirits and the Maker than Andrastians. Correct.
The Dalish believe all spirits are dangerous. Correct.

Both of these things we agree on.

But neither of the above necessarily means that they don't see any distinction between a demon and any other kind of spirit. I know dalish culture is different, but it doesn't mean it's SO different in every single detail.

You seem to be aguring that because I think Dalish can tell what a demon is, they must also believe that demons were the first children of the Maker. I don't because I don't beleive "demon" is an Andrastian exclusive term.

To make a similar comparison, take for example, The Chantry's view on mages. The templars exist because they believe all mages are dangerous. This does not mean that in practical terms there is no distinction between an abomination, a maleficar or a Tevinter Magister or that all are dangerous in exactly the same way.

Actually it's not the first time you've assumed the Dalish verison of something is more than the lore says it was. You imagined a very specific account of the Fall of the Dales based on too little description. And in that the argument I made was that the Dalish and Chantry accounts were just the mostly the same with certain events emphazied based on  the fact there wasn't any radically different story present in any of the lore sources. It's not just the "Chantry version" it's the only one that's written anywhere. Who struck first is the biggest difference and that's kept ambigious even in World of Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not contradictory when the Creators have been imprisoned since the inception of the Dales, so the Dalish don't see it as the home of their gods. And are you seriously arguing that Merrill doesn't know the lore of her own people?

A retcon seems more likley. The Dalish see themselves as the Last of the Elvhen and the Elvhen did see the
Beyond as the home of their gods.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 03:17 .