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[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote..

LobselVith8 wrote...

That line of thought makes absolutely no sense. Some teenagers outside the States curse in American English; following your logic, it's not American English because those teenagers are using those terms. 

There are also words that mean the same thing in multiple versions of english. If we follow this analogy I think ancient Tevinter would have been aware of the distinction too, so the word wouldn't have been American English to start with.

Tevinter might. Which doesn't change the fact that the Dalish don't make the distinction. To them, all spirits are dangerous; there are no beneficial spirits. This is the entire crux of Merill's terminology, and her multiple religious debates with Anders. It's supported by the World of Thedas.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But neither of the above necessarily means that they don't see any distinction between a demon and any other kind of spirit. I know dalish culture is different, but it doesn't mean it's SO different in every single detail. 

That's because Merill explicitly says they don't. That's because WoT affirms her statement that the Dalish see all spirits as dangerous.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You seem to be aguring that because I think Dalish can tell what a demon is, they must also believe that demons were the first children of the Maker. I don't because I don't beleive "demon" is an Andrastian exclusive term.

I'm addressing that the Dalish don't make the distinction because we have a Dalish explicitly stating they don't, while an Andrastian mage argues the distinction is tied to the Andrastian religion. You're welcome to state that some cultures share the same views as the Chantry about this aspect of the culture, but we have multiple conversations and an entry in WoT that illustrates that the Dalish aren't one of them.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually it's not the first time you've assumed the Dalish verison of something is more than the lore says it was. You imagined a very specific account of the Fall of the Dales based on too little description. And in that the argument I made was that the Dalish and Chantry accounts were just the mostly the same with certain events emphazied based on  the fact there wasn't any radically different story present in any of the lore sources. It's not just the "Chantry version" it's the only one that's written anywhere. Who struck first is the biggest difference and that's kept ambigious even in World of Thedas.

You're ignoring that, in addition to the Dalish codex, the elven Warden can explicitly state that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert. You're being intellectually dishonest by acting like the Chantry version of the fall of the Dales is the only one.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not contradictory when the Creators have been imprisoned since the inception of the Dales, so the Dalish don't see it as the home of their gods. And are you seriously arguing that Merrill doesn't know the lore of her own people? 

A retcon seems more likley. The Dalish see themselves as the Last of the Elvhen and the Elvhen did see the Beyond as the home of their gods. 

Regardless, I don't think it's an example of Merrill being incorrect about the culture of the People.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 octobre 2013 - 04:38 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's because Merill explicitly says they don't. That's because WoT affirms her statement that the Dalish see all spirits as dangerous.

I'm addressing that the Dalish don't make the distinction because we have a Dalish explicitly stating they don't, while an Andrastian mage argues the distinction is tied to the Andrastian religion. You're welcome to state that some cultures share the same views as the Chantry about this aspect of the culture, but we have multiple conversations and an entry in WoT that illustrates that the Dalish aren't one of them.

Andrastian theology has some specific perspectives why Spirits and Demons differ and that's what Anders was arguing,to try to illustrate his point. But that doesn't mean the difference is strictly tied to Andrastianism. Merrill and World of Thedas say that Dalish consider all spirits to be dangerous. All wild animals are considered dangerous. But that doesn't mean that in our understanding of animals, we see no distinction in the nature of a predator vs a herbivore, for example. Witherfang was extremely dangerous, but he/she didn't behave like a demon. A spirit can be considered dangerous without being a demon. Different typese of animals are threats in different ways. Just like mages are considered dangerous by the Chantry but in different ways for the types of threats they pose.There have been multiple examples of Dalish using "demon" a distinct phrase.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're ignoring that, in addition to the Dalish codex, the elven Warden can explicitly state that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert. You're being intellectually dishonest by acting like the Chantry version of the fall of the Dales is the only one.

The fact that the Dalish earned human ire by expelling the missionaries is acknowledged as one of the casus belli for the war in both versions. I don't consider it just the "Chantry version" I think it's (at the most basic level) both of their versions. Only the details are different.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 06:05 .

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish have used the term to help Andrastians understand what they mean; it's also why they use the term 'Fade' instead of 'Beyond' to refer to the realm inhabited by spirits. Merrill's characterization is defined by the cultural difference she has, which is her refusal to share the Andrastian distinction between Spirits and Demons, since the Dalish don't think there are good spirits:

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits? 

Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar. 

Varric: You can say that again.

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins--

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less... 

This isn't up for debate when the writers have characters saying, multiple times in different conversations, that the distinction is culturally and religiously based. Part of the clash between Merrill and the Andrastians is that she doesn't believe in the distinction between Spirits and Demons. You're, once again, trying to homogenize the Chantry view as the only view, even when the characters themselves express they this isn't the case.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're conflating the facets of spirits with the religious interpretation of these beings, which shapes their perception by Andrastians as 'demons', the shunned First Children of the Maker who turned their back on their creator in jealousy over humanity. Anders' dialogue makes it clear that the Andrastian view holds demons as embodying different sins, which obviously isn't held by the Dalish, who follow the Creators. 

Sloth Demon Codex Entry:

"The truth is that demons of sloth are named so because this is the portion of the human psyche that they feed upon. Doubt. Apathy. Entropy. They seek to spread these things. The sloth demon hides in its forms, a master of shapes and disguises, always in the last place you look... and from its hiding place it spreads its influence. A community afflicted by a demon of sloth could soon become a dilapidated pit where injustices are allowed to pass without comment, and none of the residents could be aware that such a change has even taken place. The sloth demon weakens, tires, tears at the edges of consciousness and would much rather render its victim helpless than engage in a true conflict. Such creatures are best faced only with a great deal of will, and only with an eye to piercing their many disguises."

Desire Demon Codex Entry:

Far more intelligent than the bestial hunger and rage demons, and more ambitious than the demons of sloth, these dark spirits are among the most skilled at tempting mages into possession. Many who serve the whims of a desire demon never realize it. They are manipulated by illusions and deceit if not outright mind control, although these demons are reluctant to resort to such crude measures. Instead, they seem to take great pleasure in corruption. The greater the deceit, the greater their victory. 

Only demons of pride prove more fearsome opponents when roused. Their abilities to affect the mind allow them to assume disguises and even alter the environment to their purposes, not to mention the great strength and speed they possess if they should have to resort to more physical means. Most often a desire demon will attempt to bargain its way to freedom if overpowered—many stories exist that depict mages defeating desire demons to the point where a wish can be wrested from them. It should be noted that in such stories the demon almost always gets the upper hand even when the mage thinks his wish has been granted."

None of this proves that Spirits are the First Children of the Maker, or that Demons are Spirits who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity. Or that the facets of the denizens of the Fade represent Andrastian ideology and religion.

MisterJB wrote...

As evidenced by these codexs, the hierarchy of demons steams not from religious belief but from academic study; what we have here is the observation of empirical evidence that is then used to determine what part of the human psyche does a demon feed from; what "sin" they represent. In fact, the demons themselves will refer to each other as "demon", "sloth" or "pride". Likewise, Spirits will be the first to admit that they embody one virtue.

Addressing that there are certain facets to spirits isn't the same as thinking they represent 'sins', as identified by the Andrastian religion. And Merrill identifies Torpor as an entity of sloth, so I don't see why you're maligning the Dalish for having their own cultural and religious views.

MisterJB wrote...

If the Dalish wish to dismiss the tale of the Maker turning his back on the spirits, that is perfectly fine. However, they can't dismiss myriads of research simply because it was perform by humans. And if they do so, then they are in the wrong and not the humans.

Merrill acknowledges Torpor using sloth; she simply doesn't follow the Andrastian distinction of Spirits and Demons , with the latter embodying "sins", instead seeing them all as spirits.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 octobre 2013 - 10:48 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's really no point in continuing the discussion if we both interpret different things from each example of dialogue.

Merrill uses the term "demon" constantly throughout the game, sometimes referring to specific things about their nature. So much so that she's have to be going insanely far out of her way to accomodate Hawke. I think she calls them demons far more often than she calls them spirits. In fact with the example you just raised, she actually calls Torpor a "demon of sloth." Even if she sees them all as dangerous, she seems to pretty openly acknowledge demons as a sub group of spirits.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 11:20 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Demons are just spirits like Rage and Pride. You get 'good' spirits like Hope and Faith.

[Dayze]

You know considering how many people dream and that demons interact with people in the fade or even quite a few that manage to go back and forth at one point that you would "presume" would interact on some level and tell other demons/spirits what life outside of the fade is like.

Demons/Spirits are surprisingly ignorant about the non-fade world, Justice apparently didn't even know what Dalish Elves were.

If they know so little about reality and the world around them; how can they legitimately embody the aspects of what they claim to be about?

Like Valor being mentioned as not truly living up to its namesake.

For that matter; didn't Valor only care if you were willing to "fight"? And then it would give its weapons/knowledge to you if you did? Regardless or not of your moral standing? Valor maybe a "spirit" but that doesn't seem to be a particularly moral stance regardless of the potential danger beings could represent after gaining information from it.

And sure Demons tend to screw you over, some don't but most do, of course most people interacting with them are also trying to manipulate them or control them when its not some scenario where the demons are actively creating chaos or possessing things.

Morally Speaking the sloth demon you meet during the harrowing is a better being than "Valor", which doesn't mean that its a good entity but still thats something to think about.

There is also the assumption that just because something lives up to its ideal as a spirit that it couldn't also be dangerous.

I could easily see a "Justice" spirit going around and mass killing like any abomination or demon while still living up to its namesake without having been corrupted.

[LobselVith8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Demons are just spirits like Rage and Pride. You get 'good' spirits like Hope and Faith.

The discussion is about the differences in how Andrastians and Dalish view these beings, since Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and don't share Andrastian terminology with Spirits and Demons, as we see with the religious debates between Merrill and Anders.

[Boycott Bioware]

Demons and Spirits are the same, the Dalish is right. Pride demon (Mouse) and Sloth confirm this




They are the same being, only one called spirit that representing positive value, one called demon that representing negative value.

Like Merill said..."like you and Hawke, and Isabella, more or less"

[Lokiwithrope]

One does not simply label a being from the Fade.

Modifié par Lokiwithrope, 21 octobre 2013 - 02:06 .

[KiwiQuiche]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Demons are just spirits like Rage and Pride. You get 'good' spirits like Hope and Faith.

The discussion is about the differences in how Andrastians and Dalish view these beings, since Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and don't share Andrastian terminology with Spirits and Demons, as we see with the religious debates between Merrill and Anders.

I was talking to OP, not you lot.

[Silfren]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Demons are just spirits like Rage and Pride. You get 'good' spirits like Hope and Faith.

The discussion is about the differences in how Andrastians and Dalish view these beings, since Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and don't share Andrastian terminology with Spirits and Demons, as we see with the religious debates between Merrill and Anders.

I was talking to OP, not you lot.

It's a public forum.  You're "talking" to everyone here. 

[Hellion Rex]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

One does not simply label a being from the Fade.

Agreed.

[Boycott Bioware]

Andrasterian is wrong...Spirits and Demons are of the same being, if Spirits are the Maker's first children, then The Maker is a Demon

Andrasterians are Demon worshiper

Edit : The Rage demon in Alienage in DA:O confirm this..."There is no Maker, there is only demons"

Modifié par Qistina, 21 octobre 2013 - 02:22 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Silfren wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Demons are just spirits like Rage and Pride. You get 'good' spirits like Hope and Faith.

The discussion is about the differences in how Andrastians and Dalish view these beings, since Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and don't share Andrastian terminology with Spirits and Demons, as we see with the religious debates between Merrill and Anders.

I was talking to OP, not you lot.

It's a public forum.  You're "talking" to everyone here. 

If I'm not quoting anyone, I'm obviously talking to OP. If I quote you, I'm talking to you. I've had enough of your snide insinuations Silfern.

[Boycott Bioware]

I think it is clear that religion in DA world is fake, everybody are demon worshiper, the religion are man made. If it is a real religion in sense, then why the Templar in DA:O Alienage failed, why his prayer failed to against the demons? In fact those demons playing with him, then stab him with trident

Those demons are killed by the Warden, not miracle of God, or prayers....i think it want to show that the religion is fake

Templar against magic also not from miracle of God, but via training and lyrium consuming, but yet Ser Bryant dare to say "we are equipped to against UNHOLY magic as well"...while their power is not holy to begin with

Furthermore, Andraste tomb was found by the Warden, it means for how long the Chantry and Andrasterians are in blind faith? They don't even know or bothered to find the tomb of their own prophet. The tomb itself is questionable, many wraiths and spirits inside, lyrium...there's also cultists...the Guardian can be killed

All these showing that the Chantry and Andraste belief is so wrong...nothing can be taken seriously from them. They are not fallible

[Br3admax]

Lol. Especially the part about the Urn. It's like you didn't even pay attention to all of the dead bodies around.

[Boycott Bioware]

In many games, the religion is shown as real, Paladin against undeads and demons are from miracles and blessed by divine either it's god, gods, goddesses or whatever, it means in those universe the religion is real...the priests are blessed, Paladin are blessed, their skill are gifts from the divine and have divine influence

But in DA...Templar consume lyrium, going into training, got possessed, failed fighting demons using prayers, fight magic with the help of lyrium...their powers are not of divine influence, they just claim they doing all the things in the name of God and the prophet, but none showing the God and prophet have anything to do with anything

So...it is simply, the religion is fake

There is no Maker, god, goddesses, divines,...there is just Fade and demons

[Silfren]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
If I'm not quoting anyone, I'm obviously talking to OP. If I quote you, I'm talking to you. I've had enough of your snide insinuations Silfern.

In a public forum, every comment is open to responses from everyone.  Cope.

[KiwiQuiche]

Silfren wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
If I'm not quoting anyone, I'm obviously talking to OP. If I quote you, I'm talking to you. I've had enough of your snide insinuations Silfern.

In a public forum, every comment is open to responses from everyone.  Cope.

Haven't played ME1 I take it?

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 21 octobre 2013 - 03:18 .

[Silfren]

Dayze wrote...

You know considering how many people dream and that demons interact with people in the fade or even quite a few that manage to go back and forth at one point that you would "presume" would interact on some level and tell other demons/spirits what life outside of the fade is like.

Demons/Spirits are surprisingly ignorant about the non-fade world, Justice apparently didn't even know what Dalish Elves were.

If they know so little about reality and the world around them; how can they legitimately embody the aspects of what they claim to be about?

Like Valor being mentioned as not truly living up to its namesake.

This is a good question, actually.  Part of the lore on Fade denizens is that it seems to be part of their very nature that they are at once fascinated by it and yet never able to really comprehend it.  So where does their knowledge of human virtues come from?

It's easy enough to see how spirits would embody an ideal without being able to understand that human beings live in a world far too complex and nuanced for "pure" virtues.  But how are they able to understand human virtues at all, in the first place?

[Br3admax]

Qistina wrote...

In many games, the religion is shown as real, Paladin against undeads and demons are from miracles and blessed by divine either it's god, gods, goddesses or whatever, it means in those universe the religion is real...the priests are blessed, Paladin are blessed, their skill are gifts from the divine and have divine influence

But in DA...Templar consume lyrium, going into training, got possessed, failed fighting demons using prayers, fight magic with the help of lyrium...their powers are not of divine influence, they just claim they doing all the things in the name of God and the prophet, but none showing the God and prophet have anything to do with anything

So...it is simply, the religion is fake

There is no Maker, god, goddesses, divines,...there is just Fade and demons

How is this any different from whatever religion you seem to believe in? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 21 octobre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Br3ad wrote...
How is this any different from whatever religion you seem to believe in?

There's a lot of difference

At least in real life religion there are imams, priests, monks that when someone got possessed, they can exorcise and cast the demons away, using what they belief in their religion...either you believe it or not...at least their prayers have strength

In DA, prayers are nothing

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

In many games, the religion is shown as real, Paladin against undeads and demons are from miracles and blessed by divine either it's god, gods, goddesses or whatever, it means in those universe the religion is real...the priests are blessed, Paladin are blessed, their skill are gifts from the divine and have divine influence

But in DA...Templar consume lyrium, going into training, got possessed, failed fighting demons using prayers, fight magic with the help of lyrium...their powers are not of divine influence, they just claim they doing all the things in the name of God and the prophet, but none showing the God and prophet have anything to do with anything

So...it is simply, the religion is fake

There is no Maker, god, goddesses, divines,...there is just Fade and demons

Nothing in Dragon Age necessarily confirms or denies Andrastianism as a "real" religion--which is kind of a silly way of discussing it anyway, as all religions are man-made.  A religion does not, believe it or not, have to be "proven" by the working of miracles in order to be validated.  I believe it is even a point of doctrine--I may be wrong--that the Maker does not answer prayers, a teaching which stems from the belief that after Andraste was executed, he abandoned the world and lost interest in it.

But things like lyrium and magic do not dispute the validity of the religion.  In fact they are part of the belief system. 

Systems like D&D are created from the standpoint that Deities are real and tangible beings who interact with the world.  That Dragon Age's religion is written more to mirror real world religon, from the beliefs to the practical expression, doesn't mean you should assume that the deities don't exist.  It just means that it's pointlessly silly to use the world and lore of a different universe as your yardstick for this one.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 octobre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
How is this any different from whatever religion you seem to believe in?

There's a lot of difference

At least in real life religion there are imams, priests, monks that when someone got possessed, they can exorcise and cast the demons away, using what they belief in their religion...either you believe it or not...at least their prayers have strength

In DA, prayers are nothing

Er.  DA uses precisely the same mechanic.  There is belief, and there are practices built around that belief.  It's identical.