199 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

Well..look at the Templar in DA:O Alienage

Templar : "In the name of the Maker, Andraste and the Golden City bla bla bla, grant me strength...go away demons!"

Demon acted like being defeated

Templar : "We did it, we won"

Demon stab the Templar at his back using trident

Demon : "LOL...there is no Maker, there is only demon",

See that?

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Well..look at the Templar in DA:O Alienage

Templar : "In the name of the Maker, Andraste and the Golden City bla bla bla, grant me strength...go away demons!"

Demon acted like being defeated

Templar : "We did it, we won"

Demon stab the Templar at his back using trident

Demon : "LOL...there is no Maker, there is only demon",

See that?

And you're taking the word of a single demon as de facto unerring, indisputable proof WHY, exactly?  You do realize it tends to be the thing for demons to go out of their way to discredit a person's faith?  It's a trope I've seen played out in many stories; whether dealing with real world religions or fictional ones, it's very common for the demon's entire M.O to revolve around destroying a person's faith. 

It's a bit different in DA, given the precise details we have of demons and their relationship in the world, but still the same basic idea is there, that demons focus on inflicting injury.  Of course attacking a person's faith in the Maker would be part and parcel of that.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 octobre 2013 - 12:21 .

[Boycott Bioware]

But maybe the demon speak the truth, because if the demon lie, then it only prove the religion is not fake, isn't it?

In anyway, the demon speak the truth or lies have damage the concept of religion in DA.

Now are you saying that Andrasterian religion is the true religion in DA? What about other religions? The Dalish religion, the Dwarves religion...see? If the demon lie, means Andresterian belief is the truth, if the demon speak the truth, then the Andrasterian belief is right and that's make all other religion are false

The Ancestor/Stone, Fan'harel or Mythal can''t be gods if the Rage demon lie about the Maker because it automatically make Andrasterian belief is the absolute truth

For me, in my opinion, DA universe don't have god, it have only The Fade and Demons, religions are just made up by Thedosians...like my point above, if the Rage demon lie, then Andrasterian belief is the truth, if the demon speak the truth, then Andrasterian belief is false...in anyway, it wash away all other religions into oblivion

Unless, The Maker, Creators and Ancestors are all existed at the same time and the same place as Gods...it can't be like that

Modifié par Qistina, 21 octobre 2013 - 06:53 .

[Senya]

Actually, that fits a TV Trope: "All Religoins Are True".

Or only one could be right.

I think it's supposed to be left to interpretation truthfully. Though, there are spirits in the Stone.

[Boycott Bioware]

It can't be all true

In DA universe, what if DA:I expose things that confirmed Andrasterian belief, then it will diminished all other religions

Maker this, Maker that, Andraste this, Andraste that...what about Creators, Ancestors and Stones?

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

But maybe the demon speak the truth, because if the demon lie, then it only prove the religion is not fake, isn't it?

In anyway, the demon speak the truth or lies have damage the concept of religion in DA.

Now are you saying that Andrasterian religion is the true religion in DA? What about other religions? The Dalish religion, the Dwarves religion...see? If the demon lie, means Andresterian belief is the truth, if the demon speak the truth, then the Andrasterian belief is right and that's make all other religion are false

The Ancestor/Stone, Fan'harel or Mythal can''t be gods if the Rage demon lie about the Maker because it automatically make Andrasterian belief is the absolute truth

For me, in my opinion, DA universe don't have god, it have only The Fade and Demons, religions are just made up by Thedosians...like my point above, if the Rage demon lie, then Andrasterian belief is the truth, if the demon speak the truth, then Andrasterian belief is false...in anyway, it wash away all other religions into oblivion

Unless, The Maker, Creators and Ancestors are all existed at the same time and the same place as Gods...it can't be like that

The demon hasn't damaged "the concept of religion."  That doesn't even make sense.

There's several fallacies in your thinking here, but the biggest one at present seems to be the idea that demons and spirits know all there is to know about the world, including the Maker, and that the things they say can be categorized as either the complete truth or a complete lie.  I pointed out to you that the demon could well be lying, but that nevertheless does not mean what you think it does, and it is still entirely possible that the demon itself may not know much of anything. 

Another possibility is that the Maker, Creators, and Ancestors do all exist.  But that by no means require that they all be Gods of the same type and power: in particular the Ancestors shouldn't be thought of as gods at all.  It bears repeating: our knowledge of each of these entities is incomplete, and the information we do have comes down to us filtered through the bias of religious belief. 

Finally, I don't generally speak of religion in real life in terms of "true," because there is a difference between the historical facts behind a religion, and any spiritual truths said religion teaches. The various fictional religions presented to us in DA seemingly follow the same rules--albeit I have some complaints with how the writers handled certain things pertaining to orthodox Andrastianism, which I'll not go into here. 

[Boycott Bioware]

What i mean is...if the demon saying "there is no Maker, there is only demon" is a lie as you try to suggest, then it makes the belief of the Maker exist is the truth

Now, the writer try to make that religion in DA always in question, the same way like real world religion in which you can argue to million of years as truth or not...but when the demon say "There is no Maker" and the character who hear it take it as a lie, means the character believe it as a lie, making the Maker existed, we as player take it as a lie, means we conform the Maker existed

That is only one sided, "the Maker" is Andrasterian belief, Dalish don't believe that, so Dalish Warden hear that, it means nothing...when the demon saying "There is no Maker", Dalish Warden may say "you speak the truth"...by that means the Dalish Warden may agree with a demon. But do we as player take it as the truth?

If it is the truth, then it prove that Chantry/Andrasterian belief is WRONG because the is no Maker, if it is a lie, then what about Creators and Ancestors that are also of divinity and worship as God by Dalish and Dwarves? They can't all be the same entity or share the same divinity. Religion don't work like that even in real life

Muslims, Christians and Jews will never take Hindu gods and goddesses as God, and Hindu will never take YHWH as God, never take Allah as God, Buddha never take Allah and YHWH as God...now i am not arguing which religion is the true religion, but Allah, Buddha, YHWH and Shiva are not the same...we can debate till death to prove which God existed..but what if a demon appear saying "There is no YHWH", that demon maybe lie and maybe speak the truth isn't it? Every religion believe the existence of demon..so the demon appear and say "there is no YHWH", you take it as the truth or as a lie?

That is what happen in DA:O Alienage when the demon say "There is no Maker"...if the demon speak the truth, then there is no Maker, if he lie, then it prove The Maker exist and all other religions are false

DA is not like TES where Aedra and Daedra are all existed and everyone are free worship what they want, it is the only religion in TES that is you are free to worship which deities you want because they all existed...well, except in Skyrim where Talos being contested as God, but it explains that according to Talos worshiper, Talos was human who being a god...in TES all those divine being directly influence the mortals

DA is not like that unless David Gaider said The Maker, Creators and Ancestors are all like Aedra and Daedra in TES...so if the demon is lying, Maker exist, if the demon speak the truth, then Maker don't exist

[clone wars]

we know that demons have intelligence

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

What i mean is...if the demon saying "there is no Maker, there is only demon" is a lie as you try to suggest, then it makes the belief of the Maker exist is the truth.

No, it doesn't.  As I said, it's not an either/or, all or nothing equation.  I did point out that the prospect that the demon is lying is only one possibility.  The bottom line is that the demon could simply be intruding on a person's thoughts and using that person's belief system against them, without facts or lies or truths having anything to do with it.

Now, the writer try to make that religion in DA always in question, the same way like real world religion in which you can argue to million of years as truth or not...but when the demon say "There is no Maker" and the character who hear it take it as a lie, means the character believe it as a lie, making the Maker existed, we as player take it as a lie, means we conform the Maker existed.

I can only guess that the language barrier here is preventing us from doing anything but going 'round and 'round in circles.  What a person believes to be true is not the same thing as what is true, and this also gets into the issue I mentioned before, about the difference between truth and fact.  You can't really have a cogent discussion without first acknowledging the difference, as tthey are non-synonymous terms.  This is especially the case with religion, because in any such discussion there will be a disparity between historical knowledge and mythical belief.

If you hear something and believe what you heard to be a lie, that remains what you BELIEVE, it does not MAKE it one thing or the other.  And I really don't know what the hell you mean by "we confirm the Maker existed", though, because we don't confirm anything.  Since you apparently are arguing from the standpoint that the Maker somehow can be empirically confirmed or refuted, I have to remind you, again, that simply believing something does not alter what the facts themselves may be--once something is proven, it is no longer part of a belief system, but confirmed knowledge, and nothing about the Maker is confirmed or refuted by the demon's words.

That is only one sided, "the Maker" is Andrasterian belief, Dalish don't believe that, so Dalish Warden hear that, it means nothing...when the demon saying "There is no Maker", Dalish Warden may say "you speak the truth"...by that means the Dalish Warden may agree with a demon. But do we as player take it as the truth?

I don't remember how this scene plays out, and while I'll apologize if I'm wrong, right now I'm not at all sure that this scene's dialogue goes as you say it does.  Anyway, what we players take as the truth is irrelevant, I don't understand why you keep bringing it up.

If it is the truth, then it prove that Chantry/Andrasterian belief is WRONG because the is no Maker, if it is a lie, then what about Creators and Ancestors that are also of divinity and worship as God by Dalish and Dwarves? They can't all be the same entity or share the same divinity. Religion don't work like that even in real life.

This is overly simplistic and assumes we already have all the information on the Maker, Creators, and Ancestors and exactly how these different beings pertain to one another, and this is not at all the case.  Absolutely NOTHING is proven or confirmed by one demon's statements. 

Yes, they COULD all be the same entity or share the same divinity.  You're forgetting one very important detail about religion:  NONE of us have all the facts.  Most religions teach doctrines which can only be confirmed in the afterlife, and that by definition makes those doctrines non-confirmable.  Based on the information we currently have of them, this is equally true of DA religions.

Referencing real world religion is one thing, but I would REALLY like to keep real world specifics out of this discussion, if you please, lest we get off-topic and end up getting the thread locked. 

Modifié par Silfren, 21 octobre 2013 - 01:56 .

[Dayze]

It should be pointed out....I think there are actually christian Buddhists, and religions over time have been known to take gods and other entities and either put them into their religions/mythologies or create new entities around them.

Your also not factoring in non-denominational Christians etc....or New Ager's, there is actually a pretty decent amount of people who have no problem taking from one religion or another and creating their own hybrid....or even TV portrayals of religion.

As for whether "all" religions could be true.....well to some extent in Dragonage they are, even if the Maker exists the old gods do exist as well in some form IE the Archdemons.

Or for that matter the dragon cults and their dragons....sure they aren't exactly Gods like they seem to believe or Kolgrim did anyways but they do exist and have great power and one of the central theme in DA seems to be that they don't really have "Gods" like we tend to generally see in fantasy settings.

[clone wars]

I bet we will find some good demons

[Vulpe]

Demons are just spirits that have gone rogue. The good demons you'll find are the benevolet spirits.

It's the same thing as with the angels and demons/fallen angels. Demons are just angels gone rogue .

The same thing goes for the DA demons.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Good demon! lol

[Trolldrool]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Demons are just spirits that have gone rogue. The good demons you'll find are the benevolet spirits.

It's the same thing as with the angels and demons/fallen angels. Demons are just angels gone rogue .

The same thing goes for the DA demons.

I have to disagree with this statement.  Gone rogue implies they made a conscious choice to be different from spirits like Valour or Justice. The thing is that spirits in the Fade have no choice to be anything other than what they are. Manifestations of emotions and principles that first in the mortal realm are put in categories like good and evil.  The spirits that embody (if that word can be used) traits that mortals consider beneficial and admirable are categorized as benevolent spirits.  Spirits that embody traits that mortals consider destructive and reprehensible are categorized as demons.

A spirit of rage has no more choice to not be angry than a spirit of valour can choose to not act bravely.  Mortals have many different goals and emotions that allow us to make individual choices and even contradictory ones. Mortals have gray areas.  Spirits don't because they can only be what they've always been and are forced to act from a black and white perspective. All things exist in absolute extremes and gray areas are obstacles. 

That's why such a thing as a good demon cannot exist.  If it possessed a body and lived among mortals long enough to develop wants and emotions beyond its limitations in the Fade, it would no longer be a demon.

[Angrywolves]

demons are evil by definition, so there are no "good' demons.

[Fortlowe]

It's always demons that corrupt mages. Wouldn't it be interesting if it could work the other way too? A demon is turned into a benevolent spirit by an astonishingly good person or at least someone with the purest of intentions. My understanding is that Demons are the way they are because they wish to experience the mortal condition. It's not always vice that motivates us. Experiencing the love of a mother for her child or the righteousness of freeing ones people, and other honorable examples of profound emotion would, I believe, be equally rewarding for a demons appetites.

:blush::innocent:

Modifié par Fortlowe, 15 décembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[leaguer of one]

MR_PN wrote...

Cole...

[Vulpe]

Angrywolves wrote...

demons are evil by definition, so there are no "good' demons.

Demons are just spirits that assimilated negative human traits. The good demons would be the benevolent spirits.

Both are spirits after all, just that they assimilated a negative or positive aspect of the human character.

[leaguer of one]

Angrywolves wrote...

demons are evil by definition, so there are no "good' demons.

Not true. They are predators by nature. Not evil. Calling a demon evil is like calling a Tiger that eats people and other animals evil.

[leaguer of one]

clone wars wrote...

I bet we will find some good demons

Cole...

[leaguer of one]

Fortlowe wrote...

It's always demons that corrupt mages. Wouldn't it be interesting if it could work the other way too? A demon is turned into a benevolent spirit by an astonishingly good person or at least someone with the purest of intentions. My understanding is that Demons are the way they are because they wish to experience the mortal condition. It's not always vice that motivates us. Experiencing the love of a mother for her child or the righteousness of freeing ones people, and other honorable examples of profound emotion would, I believe, be equally rewarding for a demons appetites.

:blush::innocent:

....Again, Cole...

[Hellion Rex]

leaguer of one wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

demons are evil by definition, so there are no "good' demons.

Not true. They are predators by nature. Not evil. Calling a demon evil is like calling a Tiger that eats people and other animals evil.

Depends on your perspective. Do remember that most people are bringing their real world perspectives and beliefs into this game. Most would say that the word "demon" has an extremely negative connotation to it. So often times, we see demon in the game, and think "evil" in response.

[Hellion Rex]

leaguer of one wrote...

clone wars wrote...

I bet we will find some good demons

Cole...

Considering how Asunder ended, I would put Cole in the "I don't know" category. Heck, I honestly think he exists outside the normal spectrum of demons that we have come to know.

[TribolMan]

Fortlowe wrote...

It's always demons that corrupt mages. Wouldn't it be interesting if it could work the other way too? A demon is turned into a benevolent spirit by an astonishingly good person or at least someone with the purest of intentions. My understanding is that Demons are the way they are because they wish to experience the mortal condition. It's not always vice that motivates us. Experiencing the love of a mother for her child or the righteousness of freeing ones people, and other honorable examples of profound emotion would, I believe, be equally rewarding for a demons appetites.

:blush::innocent:

A demon that turns good after possessing is something I would like to see, it would be like a reverse Justice

[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

demons are evil by definition, so there are no "good' demons.

Not true. They are predators by nature. Not evil. Calling a demon evil is like calling a Tiger that eats people and other animals evil.

Depends on your perspective. Do remember that most people are bringing their real world perspectives and beliefs into this game. Most would say that the word "demon" has an extremely negative connotation to it. So often times, we see demon in the game, and think "evil" in response.

And that still would be wrong. It not a correct concept  if you beleive to be so. In stead at  looking at lables, they should look a actions. This is a moraly grey story. There is no true good or evil.

Remeber, this is a story hat show that both demons and spirits can be dangerous. Why can't bothdemons and spirits be benevolent?

We have harmful spirits like Justice and helpful demons like Cole in this story.