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[ev76]

Rawgrim wrote...

Didn`t that archdemon in the trailer pop out of the veil? Maybe its Dumat and thats the reason why they couldn`t hear him.

that would be pretty cool if that was Dumat. 

[Sifr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Corypheus is dead, damn it!

I'm 100% convinced that line means nothing more than Corypheus exists on both sides of the Veil, referring to his being one of the original magisters who physically entered the Fade..

Well you might be 100% convinced, but the 99% of the rest of us can point to the multitude of clues that hinted that he's still alive and kicking, just wearing himself a new meat-suit.

On topic to the above, the possibility that Dumat or one of the other Old Gods might still be alive is intriguing. After all, how did Flemeth come up with the ritual to transfer the soul of the Archdemon via the Grey Warden? It's either been done before or she's been working on this plan for multiple Blights?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 08 septembre 2013 - 11:32 .

[Xewaka]

Well, they did say they were rescuing stuff from the scrapped Exalted March expansion for Dragon Age Inquisiton.

[In Exile]

Sifr1449 wrote..
On topic to the above, the possibility that Dumat or one of the other Old Gods might still be alive is intriguing. After all, how did Flemeth come up with the ritual to transfer the soul of the Archdemon via the Grey Warden? It's either been done before or she's been working on this plan for multiple Blights?

We know that Garahel died fighting the archdemon, and the implication is that Garahel did the US. There is that crackpot theory floating around that Andraste was Dumat. 

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote..
On topic to the above, the possibility that Dumat or one of the other Old Gods might still be alive is intriguing. After all, how did Flemeth come up with the ritual to transfer the soul of the Archdemon via the Grey Warden? It's either been done before or she's been working on this plan for multiple Blights?

We know that Garahel died fighting the archdemon, and the implication is that Garahel did the US. There is that crackpot theory floating around that Andraste was Dumat. 

And that Calenhad was Andoral.

And, for all we know, the Grey Wardens involved may have faked their own deaths (or the Wardens could have covered it up as well, so the penalty for killing the Archdemon would not be seen as a fluke). After all, if Flemeth was inventing and using this ritual for the first time, she wouldn't have trusted Morrigan to do it. It had to be something tested and proven before she would feel comfortable that she was passing on the correct knowledge instead of doing the work herself. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Andraste being Dumat sort of does fit with the unclear circumstantial evidence, but Calenhad was already 2 years old by the time Andoral was even awoken to start the Fourth Blight.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 septembre 2013 - 12:24 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And, for all we know, the Grey Wardens involved may have faked their own deaths (or the Wardens could have covered it up as well, so the penalty for killing the Archdemon would not be seen as a fluke). After all, if Flemeth was inventing and using this ritual for the first time, she wouldn't have trusted Morrigan to do it. It had to be something tested and proven before she would feel comfortable that she was passing on the correct knowledge instead of doing the work herself. 

Although to be fair, we are assuming that Morrigan is right and that Flemeth actually wanted an old god soul. It may be that Flemeth wanted something else entirely. We assume that the GWs are right and that a Warden killing an Archdemon might lead to that archdemon's soul being obliterated, but that might be wrong. 

The only authority we have on that is (i) Morrigan and (ii) Riordan, sort of . The Wardens love lying to their members - it's part of their rite of passage with the Joining - so it needn't be the case that archdemons actually die the way Riodan believed. 

[Navasha]

There was another line that just caught my attention the other day. It comes from that old Tevinter statue locked in the repository of the Ferelden Circle. It was in Witch Hunt, where you are going to ask it about the eluvians. When you enter, there are tears in the veil causing the guardians to go nuts.
If you try speaking to the statue before closing the tears, she screams out, "The prison is breached!"
So is she referring to the veil and the fade itself as a prison? Or is there a Prison inside the Fade that has been breached and the veil tears are simply amplifying her sensitivity to it?

[In Exile]

greengoron89 wrote...

That would bring up the question of whether not just Dumat, but Urthemiel and the other Archdemons are truly dead, then. If the Grey Wardens have been wrong and the Old Gods do not truly die, then they're all still out there in some form or another.

Which means that denying the Dark Ritual would not only be a wasted effort but could prove to be a mistake in the long run. An ill precedent, indeed.

Ill precedent? Why do you say that?

I don't think Bioware is obligated to give players complete information when they're asked to make a decision. Especially when it's about magic rituals beyond the players understanding, and when characters are refusing to help you understand them. 

[Sifr]

There was an interesting fanfiction I once read that had Flemeth aid Garahel and offer him the DR as a way out, only for him to refuse due to not trusting her, causing her to remark "I'll remember that for the next time".

It got me thinking that it would be interesting if we learnt that she had indeed tried this method before, but failed due to being inherently untrustworthy.

Thus she came upon the idea of having a string of disposable daughters while she awaited the next Blight, so that one of them might acquire the OGB where she previously failed. Plus, it gave her a supply of free bodies to use.

[In Exile]

greengoron89 wrote...

Not what I meant. That nifty little twist of events would actually be quite brilliant. I mean it sets an ill precedent for the Wardens as well as players who did not go through with the Dark Ritual.

Ah, I see. It's bad for both sides, because not everyone actually had an issue with the DR. Personally, I subscribed to the Varric in Legacy theory of "we can just kill it later anyway". 

[OLDIRTYBARON]

While the musings on whether or not the Archdemons are dead or just banished to the Fade and why or why not the Warden dies are interesting, I think it's best to remember what happens to the Warden if they stab the Archdemon in the dome.

They done die, yo.

The fact that you survive if you agree to the Dark Ritual speaks well of Riordan's point. That since the soul of the Archdemon seeks the nearest tainted creature, it meets the Warden, and since the Warden is occupied by a living soul, the two go kablooey. It may not, in actuality go exactly like that. I'm sure there are other metaphysical components we're just not aware of, for instance, but I think Riordan wasn't lying to you when he told you what the deal was. Why would he? He'd have no reason to lie considering there were only three Wardens in all of Ferelden and the Blight was knocking on their door.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice bit of speculation, but I guess I dislike it mainly because it cheapens the sacrifice of the Wardens. It was interesting to find out that they're not an order of heroes to begin with, better still that they're rather amoral about life unless a Blight is involved, but taking away the one truly decent thing they can do just says "what's the point then?" to me.

That and it would mean Loghain was right. And like Saren, that should never be the case.

[Sifr]

An elegant solution to this would be that those who went through with the DR, are rewarded by the OGB doing something truly awful, by either intent or accident in the fourth game, yet later prove vital in solving an even worse crisis in the fifth.

Those who did not are saved having the bad event happen in the fourth, but now left with no way out for a terrible situation in the fifth. Something akin to curing the genophage in ME3, but with Wreav in charge and no Eve to stop him going on the warpath later.

It's so morally ambiguous what the "correct" option was, Bioware could wear it as a coat.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 09 septembre 2013 - 12:59 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

greengoron89 wrote...

The Wardens might not be lying per se. They might honestly believe that the soul of the Archdemon dies with the Warden who strikes the final blow, and so far there is no proof to the contrary.

But that doesn't mean they're necessarily right. The revelation that the soul of an Old God being more resilient than what was previously believed would come as no shock to me.

I agree. Perhaps when the Archdemon is slain, the Old God Soul attempts to take the Warden, but can't, and that giant white light we see over Fort Drakon is the Old God being punched through the Veil?

I always wondered why that whole bit was there, honestly. It was far too bombastic to just be simple cinematic flare.

But then why does the Warden die? That part still doesn't make sense even with my half-baked theory.

Modifié par OLDIRTYBARON, 09 septembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[Ozzy]

I suppose an Old God soul, or really any soul for that matter, falls in a metaphysical category that allows Bioware to literally come up with anything regarding what happens without it sounding totally contrived. I agree that it would cheapen the sacrifice of the Grey Wardens but although it's stated that the soul of the Old God is destroyed alongside the Warden's, they both can ultimately end up in the Fade and get respun out after x years. That's assuming that reincarnation occurs in Thedas.

I guess it comes down to what the Old Gods really are. Are they just dragons, or were they once Flemeth like figures that had multiple forms? I'd assume it's more the latter since distinctions were made among them (god of beauty etc) but this is all purely conjecture and I doubt we'll get real answers. Well, not in DAI at least.

Honestly, this is the stuff that I find truly interesting. While the Mage/Templar fight does bring a more human element in terms of the themes it explores, I love the mystery of the wider world.

[andrew252]

How do you pierce the sky?

[Eveangaline]

Maybe the gray warden in your party brings you information about him?

[Ziggeh]

Sifr1449 wrote...
Well you might be 100% convinced, but the 99% of the rest of us can point to the multitude of clues that hinted that he's still alive and kicking, just wearing himself a new meat-suit.

That was not what they were 100% convinced about.

[Ieldra]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Corypheus is dead, damn it!

I'm 100% convinced that line means nothing more than Corypheus exists on both sides of the Veil, referring to his being one of the original magisters who physically entered the Fade..

Well you might be 100% convinced, but the 99% of the rest of us can point to the multitude of clues that hinted that he's still alive and kicking, just wearing himself a new meat-suit.

That's what ITists said about ME3's ending. Including that it would be "brilliant". I find your "multitude of clues" about that convincing (i.e. not at all), and the idea about as appealing.

As for 99%, it's always the conspiracy theorists who shout the loudest and proclaim how obvious their claims are. They make.....99% of the noise, that's for sure.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 septembre 2013 - 10:44 .