136 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Palidane wrote...
Oh my God. Would you peopkle stop saying that? That comparison makes zero sense, but I see people whip it out all the time, like they think it's some guaranteed arguement killer.

A lot of stuff has to go down in order for an Exalted March to happen. First, you have to get a Divine with the audacity to call one, then you have to make sure her advisors don't talk her down, then you have to make sure her advisors don't give up and replace her, then you have to make sure the other side doesn't hire some Antivan Crows to finish it.

You have to have Kings willing to give their soldiers to the Chantry. These soldiers have to be mustered, armed, trained, paid. They have to agree to serve the Divine instead of just deserting into the night. All these armies have to march Maker knows how many miles to the enemy, then they have to have enough force to beat the enemy. If the Divine orders them to slaughter some civillians, that order has to filter through the entire chain of command, where every person can stop it just by 'losing' some paperwork. A hell of a lot of stuff has to go right in order for any of the stuff you claim to happen.

Now what does it take for a mage to become an Abomination? One bad day. One blown will save. Do you see the disconnect in your analogy?

Even if you don't, consider this: There are about a dozen Kings in Thedas, and thousands of mages.

This! What exactly is hard to understand about this?

[Silfren]

Hainkpe wrote...

But what should the Templars be doing? They are limited and they are up against a force that has an easy out. Blood mages. Even Orsino turned to blood magic. It's too easy.

This is faulty logic.  Orsino didn't turn to blood magic for no reason.  It's hardly fair to threaten the mages very lives and then use their desperate last-resort measures as proof for why you threaten their lives in the first place.

I tend to reject the idea that that extremes are automatically bad and that the dead-center is always the fair, true, and equitable solution.  Yes, often there is a happy middle ground, but too often people tend to assume that this is an automatic given in any situation, and thus we have the middle ground logical fallacy. 

Anyway, I DO think that the mages have the moral high ground.  It is not morally acceptable to lock up a person for an accident of birth, for something they might do, ESPECIALLY when there is plenty of evidence that the Templars' default go-to answer is not the only possible means of protecting against magical abuse, we see examples of the powers that be acting in ways that contradict the Chantry's stated position on the matter and yet without diastrous results, and we also see that the lock 'em up for life solution actually creates many of the problems it purports to prevent.

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...

Hainkpe wrote...

But what should the Templars be doing? They are limited and they are up against a force that has an easy out. Blood mages. Even Orsino turned to blood magic. It's too easy.

This is faulty logic.  Orsino didn't turn to blood magic for no reason.  It's hardly fair to threaten the mages very lives and then use their desperate last-resort measures as proof for why you threaten their lives in the first place.

I tend to reject the idea that that extremes are automatically bad and that the dead-center is always the fair, true, and equitable solution.  Yes, often there is a happy middle ground, but too often people tend to assume that this is an automatic given in any situation, and thus we have the middle ground logical fallacy. 

Anyway, I DO think that the mages have the moral high ground.  It is not morally acceptable to lock up a person for an accident of birth, for something they might do, ESPECIALLY when there is plenty of evidence that the Templars' default go-to answer is not the only possible means of protecting against magical abuse, we see examples of the powers that be acting in ways that contradict the Chantry's stated position on the matter and yet without diastrous results, and we also see that the lock 'em up for life solution actually creates many of the problems it purports to prevent.

I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

[Rawgrim]

I can see both sides, really. Nothing is black or white in Thedas, and thats great. Playing pre-mage, pro-templar. Great for replayability.

[cjones91]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Hainkpe wrote...

But what should the Templars be doing? They are limited and they are up against a force that has an easy out. Blood mages. Even Orsino turned to blood magic. It's too easy.

This is faulty logic.  Orsino didn't turn to blood magic for no reason.  It's hardly fair to threaten the mages very lives and then use their desperate last-resort measures as proof for why you threaten their lives in the first place.

I tend to reject the idea that that extremes are automatically bad and that the dead-center is always the fair, true, and equitable solution.  Yes, often there is a happy middle ground, but too often people tend to assume that this is an automatic given in any situation, and thus we have the middle ground logical fallacy. 

Anyway, I DO think that the mages have the moral high ground.  It is not morally acceptable to lock up a person for an accident of birth, for something they might do, ESPECIALLY when there is plenty of evidence that the Templars' default go-to answer is not the only possible means of protecting against magical abuse, we see examples of the powers that be acting in ways that contradict the Chantry's stated position on the matter and yet without diastrous results, and we also see that the lock 'em up for life solution actually creates many of the problems it purports to prevent.

I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

Why do Pro Templars always bring up Tevinter every single time as a argument for what will happen if mages live outside the Circle?You guys act like you can predict the future but here's the problem......you can't predict what every single mage will do.Most mages simply want to live their lives just like everyone else and they don't want to be anything like Tevinter.

[Uccio]

Tevinter was actually one of the most succeful civilizations in Thedas so that would be a good example of how mages can bring all the nations under one umbrella.

[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Hainkpe wrote...

But what should the Templars be doing? They are limited and they are up against a force that has an easy out. Blood mages. Even Orsino turned to blood magic. It's too easy.

This is faulty logic.  Orsino didn't turn to blood magic for no reason.  It's hardly fair to threaten the mages very lives and then use their desperate last-resort measures as proof for why you threaten their lives in the first place.

I tend to reject the idea that that extremes are automatically bad and that the dead-center is always the fair, true, and equitable solution.  Yes, often there is a happy middle ground, but too often people tend to assume that this is an automatic given in any situation, and thus we have the middle ground logical fallacy. 

Anyway, I DO think that the mages have the moral high ground.  It is not morally acceptable to lock up a person for an accident of birth, for something they might do, ESPECIALLY when there is plenty of evidence that the Templars' default go-to answer is not the only possible means of protecting against magical abuse, we see examples of the powers that be acting in ways that contradict the Chantry's stated position on the matter and yet without diastrous results, and we also see that the lock 'em up for life solution actually creates many of the problems it purports to prevent.

I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

I don't think it's a lesser evil, just evil of a different sort.  But even so, I don't think that it follows that free mages will automatically lead to Tevinter 2.0 as many insist.  There's no reason as yet to believe that mages can't live freely while not being permitted to abuse their powers.  We have evidence that the danger is not quite so apocalyptic as the Chantry has insisted, and also of possible means of countering magic sufficiently without locking mages in prisons.

[Palidane]

cjones91 wrote...
I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

Why do Pro Templars always bring up Tevinter every single time as a argument for what will happen if mages live outside the Circle?You guys act like you can predict the future but here's the problem......you can't predict what every single mage will do.Most mages simply want to live their lives just like everyone else and they don't want to be anything like Tevinter.

Why do you act like you can predict the future? We've seen what happens when mages go unchecked. Sure, it only happened once, and there's no guarantee it will happen again, but it is still a historical precedent. And Tevinter won't just go away, no matter how much you would like it to. 

Tevinter doesn't require every mage to be power hungry, only a few. Can you guarantee that no mages will seek power beyond moral limits?

Modifié par Palidane, 08 septembre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...
I don't think it's a lesser evil, just evil of a different sort.  But even so, I don't think that it follows that free mages will automatically lead to Tevinter 2.0 as many insist.  There's no reason as yet to believe that mages can't live freely while not being permitted to abuse their powers.  We have evidence that the danger is not quite so apocalyptic as the Chantry has insisted, and also of possible means of countering magic sufficiently without locking mages in prisons.

I would say it's a lesser evil, due to math. In Tevinter, the lives of most citizens suck because of the Magisters. In Ferelden, the lives of maybe 300 people suck because of Templars. 

But anyway, I agree. We do have the tools to re-form the Circle, and we should use them to find a more equitable solution. I just think that people who say "Mages should have the right to freedom like everybody else!!!1!" need to put down the Kool-Aid and open their eyes.

[lady_v23]

Both clearly have their faults.

But I always side with the mages. I can not support meredith in killing every mage in the circle because of what a individual did. And I will not allow the mages to continue being locked up with their abusers. Just because of the fear of what MIGHT happen.

If I remember correctly, Anders said that templars abuse the mages, physically, mentally and sexually. And if any of what he said is true, then no wonder they turn to blood magic.

[cjones91]

Palidane wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

Why do Pro Templars always bring up Tevinter every single time as a argument for what will happen if mages live outside the Circle?You guys act like you can predict the future but here's the problem......you can't predict what every single mage will do.Most mages simply want to live their lives just like everyone else and they don't want to be anything like Tevinter.

Why do you act like you can predict the future? We've seen what happens when mages go unchecked. Sure, it only happened once, and there's no guarantee it will happen again, but it is still a historical precedent. And Tevinter won't just go away, no matter how much you would like it to. 

Tevinter doesn't require every mage to be power hungry, only a few. Can you guarantee that no mages will seek power beyond moral limits?

You can say the same for the mundanes,Orlais is just like Tevinter except they don't have magic.Here's a list of things Orlais has done:enslaved the elves and stripped them of their culture,invaded other countries like Fereldan while raping and killing the women there,having a sport which involves things like screwing others over and murder just to get ahead.Orlais is like Tevinter's hypocritical brother who hides behind a smile while a bloody knife is behind their back.

Also I don't claim to predict the future since that's impossible,Pro Templars however claim every single mage wants to enslave the mundanes like they can actually predict that's going to happen.

[Reznore57]

I don't take faction side on principle.
Situations are usually complicated , and this sort of club thing is just a way to stay divided and war on each others without guilt.

In da2, act 3 was an exercice in frustration if you play neutral .
The act is short , and you miss a quest given by Orsino or Meredith...and in the end you're forced to make a choice .
I saved the mages not because I believe deeply in mages freedom , but because I think the right of Annulment is barbaric and in this particular event was totally uncalled for.
In the same game , when Merrill and Anders asked me to kill the templar , so the Starhaven mages could run free , I refused.

Anwyay I could go on and on but I hope in DAI , being neutral can be its own path .

[cjones91]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I don't think it's a lesser evil, just evil of a different sort.  But even so, I don't think that it follows that free mages will automatically lead to Tevinter 2.0 as many insist.  There's no reason as yet to believe that mages can't live freely while not being permitted to abuse their powers.  We have evidence that the danger is not quite so apocalyptic as the Chantry has insisted, and also of possible means of countering magic sufficiently without locking mages in prisons.

I would say it's a lesser evil, due to math. In Tevinter, the lives of most citizens suck because of the Magisters. In Ferelden, the lives of maybe 300 people suck because of Templars. 

But anyway, I agree. We do have the tools to re-form the Circle, and we should use them to find a more equitable solution. I just think that people who say "Mages should have the right to freedom like everybody else!!!1!" need to put down the Kool-Aid and open their eyes.

Orlais's history of invading countries while they are weakened during past Blights disagrees.

[Zu Long]

"Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither."

Mages are dangerous yes, but persecuting them only makes them more dangerous. Many of the mages in DA2 only turned to being demons for fear they would be killed or made Tranquil. They didn't ask to be given powers and imprisoning them for it is wrong.

Mages all the way.

[Palidane]

cjones91 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

Why do Pro Templars always bring up Tevinter every single time as a argument for what will happen if mages live outside the Circle?You guys act like you can predict the future but here's the problem......you can't predict what every single mage will do.Most mages simply want to live their lives just like everyone else and they don't want to be anything like Tevinter.

Why do you act like you can predict the future? We've seen what happens when mages go unchecked. Sure, it only happened once, and there's no guarantee it will happen again, but it is still a historical precedent. And Tevinter won't just go away, no matter how much you would like it to. 

Tevinter doesn't require every mage to be power hungry, only a few. Can you guarantee that no mages will seek power beyond moral limits?

You can say the same for the mundanes,Orlais is just like Tevinter except they don't have magic.Here's a list of things Orlais has done:enslaved the elves and stripped them of their culture,invaded other countries like Fereldan while raping and killing the women there,having a sport which involves things like screwing others over and murder just to get ahead.Orlais is like Tevinter's hypocritical brother who hides behind a smile while a bloody knife is behind their back.

Also I don't claim to predict the future since that's impossible,Pro Templars however claim every single mage wants to enslave the mundanes like they can actually predict that's going to happen.

I bet knocking down that strawman made you feel like a badass.

But anyway. I see what you mean about Orlais and Tevinter being equal. Remember that time when Orlais gathered two-thirds of the lyrium in Thedas, and used it along with the life-blood of 500 slaves to physically enter the veil, an expedition that resulted in the Darkspawn and is directly responsible for the death of millions of people from the Five Blights Thedas has weathered so far?

Oh wait. That never happened. Crap.

[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I don't think it's a lesser evil, just evil of a different sort.  But even so, I don't think that it follows that free mages will automatically lead to Tevinter 2.0 as many insist.  There's no reason as yet to believe that mages can't live freely while not being permitted to abuse their powers.  We have evidence that the danger is not quite so apocalyptic as the Chantry has insisted, and also of possible means of countering magic sufficiently without locking mages in prisons.

I would say it's a lesser evil, due to math. In Tevinter, the lives of most citizens suck because of the Magisters. In Ferelden, the lives of maybe 300 people suck because of Templars. 

But anyway, I agree. We do have the tools to re-form the Circle, and we should use them to find a more equitable solution. I just think that people who say "Mages should have the right to freedom like everybody else!!!1!" need to put down the Kool-Aid and open their eyes.

Eh, I don't reduce people to mathematical equations and frankly I find that practice abhorrent.  Slavery is slavery, regardless of how many people are affected by it, but if you want to play this game, I think that the harm of the Chantry-run Circles goes deeper than the total number of mages imprisoned.  One, the families of those mages are affected, too, but more than that, it's also about the toxic mage hatred that the practice encourages.  It doesn't just lead to people hating and fearing mages on principle, but it also creates mages like Keili who are one step away from suicide because they actually believe their very existence is an affront to their God.  There is nothing remotely okay about a system that engenders that kind of self-loathing.

I didn't drink any Flavor-Aid thank you very much, but arrived at my opinion that mages deserve the same basic right of freedom as others quite entirely on the strength of my own reason. 

You keep saying you agree with me, but you very clearly don't, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.  I don't think that it is necessary to lock up mages.  Some oversight is required, obviously, but what I have seen of the available lore tells me that it's quite possible to have that oversight while allowing mages to live freely, without being locked away.

[CELL55]

Palidane wrote...

I bet knocking down that strawman made you feel like a badass.

But anyway. I see what you mean about Orlais and Tevinter being equal. Remember that time when Orlais gathered two-thirds of the lyrium in Thedas, and used it along with the life-blood of 500 slaves to physically enter the veil, an expedition that resulted in the Darkspawn and is directly responsible for the death of millions of people from the Five Blights Thedas has weathered so far?

Oh wait. That never happened. Crap.

+1 Preach it, brother.

[cjones91]

Palidane wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
I agree with everything you said, 100%. The Circle system is toxic, and must be fixed. But even then, I think locking up mages is a lesser evil than Tevinter.

Why do Pro Templars always bring up Tevinter every single time as a argument for what will happen if mages live outside the Circle?You guys act like you can predict the future but here's the problem......you can't predict what every single mage will do.Most mages simply want to live their lives just like everyone else and they don't want to be anything like Tevinter.

Why do you act like you can predict the future? We've seen what happens when mages go unchecked. Sure, it only happened once, and there's no guarantee it will happen again, but it is still a historical precedent. And Tevinter won't just go away, no matter how much you would like it to. 

Tevinter doesn't require every mage to be power hungry, only a few. Can you guarantee that no mages will seek power beyond moral limits?

You can say the same for the mundanes,Orlais is just like Tevinter except they don't have magic.Here's a list of things Orlais has done:enslaved the elves and stripped them of their culture,invaded other countries like Fereldan while raping and killing the women there,having a sport which involves things like screwing others over and murder just to get ahead.Orlais is like Tevinter's hypocritical brother who hides behind a smile while a bloody knife is behind their back.

Also I don't claim to predict the future since that's impossible,Pro Templars however claim every single mage wants to enslave the mundanes like they can actually predict that's going to happen.

I bet knocking down that strawman made you feel like a badass.

But anyway. I see what you mean about Orlais and Tevinter being equal. Remember that time when Orlais gathered two-thirds of the lyrium in Thedas, and used it along with the life-blood of 500 slaves to physically enter the veil, an expedition that resulted in the Darkspawn and is directly responsible for the death of millions of people from the Five Blights Thedas has weathered so far?

Oh wait. That never happened. Crap.

Can you actually prove the Ancient Tevinter Magisters created and unleashed the Darkspawn?And don't give me that Chantry BS because they have every reason to demonize mages.Corypheus claims the Black City was already black by the time they got there so Tevinter did'nt create the Blight.

Of course keep blaming the currrent generation of mages for something that happened a thousand years ago because that's all you Pro Templars ever do, while ignoring the abuses commited by mundanes over the years.

Modifié par cjones91, 08 septembre 2013 - 07:13 .

[AutumnWitch]

Yes.... any group that is afraid of or hates another group just because someone is born that way is a lot of insecure, scared, irrational, fools. Since the Templars beginning if they had worked with the Mages as equals Orlais would now own Thedas. Instead they take their strongest assets and lock them away just for being born because some dusty old religion feels threatened by them.

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

Can you actually prove the Ancient Tevinter Magisters created and unleashed the Darkspawn?And don't give me that Chantry BS because they have every reason to demonize mages.Corypheus claims the Black City was already black by the time they got there so Tevinter did'nt create the Blight.

Of course keep blaming the currrent generation of mages for something that happened a thousand years ago because that's all you Pro Templars ever do, while ignoring the abuses commited by mundanes over the years.

The darkspawn only appeared after Corypheus' and crew's Fade trip. If the darkspawn predated the magisters trip a few Old Gods should've been tainted by then.

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...
Eh, I don't reduce people to mathematical equations and frankly I find that practice abhorrent.  Slavery is slavery, regardless of how many people are affected by it, but if you want to play this game, I think that the harm of the Chantry-run Circles goes deeper than the total number of mages imprisoned.  One, the families of those mages are affected, too, but more than that, it's also about the toxic mage hatred that the practice encourages.  It doesn't just lead to people hating and fearing mages on principle, but it also creates mages like Keili who are one step away from suicide because they actually believe their very existence is an affront to their God.  There is nothing remotely okay about a system that engenders that kind of self-loathing.

I didn't drink any Flavor-Aid thank you very much, but arrived at my opinion that mages deserve the same basic right of freedom as others quite entirely on the strength of my own reason. 

You keep saying you agree with me, but you very clearly don't, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.  I don't think that it is necessary to lock up mages.  Some oversight is required, obviously, but what I have seen of the available lore tells me that it's quite possible to have that oversight while allowing mages to live freely, without being locked away.

Slavery is slavery, but when my options are two different kinds of slavery, I'm going to pick the one that has less potential slaves. I would also argue that the "mage-hate" the Chant of Light teaches is not terribly far off the mark (which isn't neccessarily what the Templars teach, I admit). And besides, what do you think engenders more "mage-hate", a Revered Mother teaching about how magic should serve man and never rule over him, or a Magister dropping by the kitchens and slaughtering your entire family so he can get a minor power-up before a duel?

When I made the Kool-Aid remark, I wasn't referring to you. I may have misinterpreted your posts, but I have agreed with most of your sentiments so far. I don't think the current system works, and I don't think a prison is strictly neccessary either.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Can you actually prove the Ancient Tevinter Magisters created and unleashed the Darkspawn?And don't give me that Chantry BS because they have every reason to demonize mages.Corypheus claims the Black City was already black by the time they got there so Tevinter did'nt create the Blight.

Of course keep blaming the currrent generation of mages for something that happened a thousand years ago because that's all you Pro Templars ever do, while ignoring the abuses commited by mundanes over the years.

The darkspawn only appeared after Corypheus' and crew's Fade trip. If the darkspawn predated the magisters trip a few Old Gods should've been tainted by then.

There are also dwarven records that claim the darkspawn appeared from underground one day which would contradict the Chantry's story of mages unleashing the Blight &Darkspawn upon the world.The thing is nobody knows how the darkspawn came to be,but the Chantry spreads it's story around like it's actual fact when it's more than likely BS used to keep mages under the Chantry's control.

[cjones91]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Eh, I don't reduce people to mathematical equations and frankly I find that practice abhorrent.  Slavery is slavery, regardless of how many people are affected by it, but if you want to play this game, I think that the harm of the Chantry-run Circles goes deeper than the total number of mages imprisoned.  One, the families of those mages are affected, too, but more than that, it's also about the toxic mage hatred that the practice encourages.  It doesn't just lead to people hating and fearing mages on principle, but it also creates mages like Keili who are one step away from suicide because they actually believe their very existence is an affront to their God.  There is nothing remotely okay about a system that engenders that kind of self-loathing.

I didn't drink any Flavor-Aid thank you very much, but arrived at my opinion that mages deserve the same basic right of freedom as others quite entirely on the strength of my own reason. 

You keep saying you agree with me, but you very clearly don't, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.  I don't think that it is necessary to lock up mages.  Some oversight is required, obviously, but what I have seen of the available lore tells me that it's quite possible to have that oversight while allowing mages to live freely, without being locked away.

Slavery is slavery, but when my options are two different kinds of slavery, I'm going to pick the one that has less potential slaves. I would also argue that the "mage-hate" the Chant of Light teaches is not terribly far off the mark (which isn't neccessarily what the Templars teach, I admit). And besides, what do you think engenders more "mage-hate", a Revered Mother teaching about how magic should serve man and never rule over him, or a Magister dropping by the kitchens and slaughtering your entire family so he can get a minor power-up before a duel?

When I made the Kool-Aid remark, I wasn't referring to you. I may have misinterpreted your posts, but I have agreed with most of your sentiments so far. I don't think the current system works, and I don't think a prison is strictly neccessary either.

Not all mages are the same.

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Eh, I don't reduce people to mathematical equations and frankly I find that practice abhorrent.  Slavery is slavery, regardless of how many people are affected by it, but if you want to play this game, I think that the harm of the Chantry-run Circles goes deeper than the total number of mages imprisoned.  One, the families of those mages are affected, too, but more than that, it's also about the toxic mage hatred that the practice encourages.  It doesn't just lead to people hating and fearing mages on principle, but it also creates mages like Keili who are one step away from suicide because they actually believe their very existence is an affront to their God.  There is nothing remotely okay about a system that engenders that kind of self-loathing.

I didn't drink any Flavor-Aid thank you very much, but arrived at my opinion that mages deserve the same basic right of freedom as others quite entirely on the strength of my own reason. 

You keep saying you agree with me, but you very clearly don't, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.  I don't think that it is necessary to lock up mages.  Some oversight is required, obviously, but what I have seen of the available lore tells me that it's quite possible to have that oversight while allowing mages to live freely, without being locked away.

Slavery is slavery, but when my options are two different kinds of slavery, I'm going to pick the one that has less potential slaves. I would also argue that the "mage-hate" the Chant of Light teaches is not terribly far off the mark (which isn't neccessarily what the Templars teach, I admit). And besides, what do you think engenders more "mage-hate", a Revered Mother teaching about how magic should serve man and never rule over him, or a Magister dropping by the kitchens and slaughtering your entire family so he can get a minor power-up before a duel?

When I made the Kool-Aid remark, I wasn't referring to you. I may have misinterpreted your posts, but I have agreed with most of your sentiments so far. I don't think the current system works, and I don't think a prison is strictly neccessary either.

Not all mages are the same.

after da 2 i would argue

[cjones91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Eh, I don't reduce people to mathematical equations and frankly I find that practice abhorrent.  Slavery is slavery, regardless of how many people are affected by it, but if you want to play this game, I think that the harm of the Chantry-run Circles goes deeper than the total number of mages imprisoned.  One, the families of those mages are affected, too, but more than that, it's also about the toxic mage hatred that the practice encourages.  It doesn't just lead to people hating and fearing mages on principle, but it also creates mages like Keili who are one step away from suicide because they actually believe their very existence is an affront to their God.  There is nothing remotely okay about a system that engenders that kind of self-loathing.

I didn't drink any Flavor-Aid thank you very much, but arrived at my opinion that mages deserve the same basic right of freedom as others quite entirely on the strength of my own reason. 

You keep saying you agree with me, but you very clearly don't, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.  I don't think that it is necessary to lock up mages.  Some oversight is required, obviously, but what I have seen of the available lore tells me that it's quite possible to have that oversight while allowing mages to live freely, without being locked away.

Slavery is slavery, but when my options are two different kinds of slavery, I'm going to pick the one that has less potential slaves. I would also argue that the "mage-hate" the Chant of Light teaches is not terribly far off the mark (which isn't neccessarily what the Templars teach, I admit). And besides, what do you think engenders more "mage-hate", a Revered Mother teaching about how magic should serve man and never rule over him, or a Magister dropping by the kitchens and slaughtering your entire family so he can get a minor power-up before a duel?

When I made the Kool-Aid remark, I wasn't referring to you. I may have misinterpreted your posts, but I have agreed with most of your sentiments so far. I don't think the current system works, and I don't think a prison is strictly neccessary either.

Not all mages are the same.

after da 2 i would argue

Kirkwall was a completely special circumstance.I don't judge all mages&templars based on what happened there.