341 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

As an aside, what's the betting that there'll be a whole bunch of totally normal doors that we'll have to pick up keys for?

[Rawgrim]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't quite see the problem as both warrior and rouges are superhuman in da. They were in da:o, da:a and da2. Combat have never pretended to be realistic. I think the video mentioned that Cassandra was specced to be able to break thing, which I think is a much more interesting aspect.

If you hit a metal door with such a force, you should be able to hit people with it too. This makes it overpowered.

If I can stun a dragon 5 time my size (which we could in da:o), yet people still survive when I hit them with the same problem. I do not see the problem.

Thedosdian are superhuman compared to us and made of something much studierer than real life humans. It has always been that way.

So why do they need gunpowder, siege engines and whatsnot if a single person can just bash a gate? And why bother with gates or walls at all?

[MerinTB]

immhey wrote...
That's where DA is at in my imo too but what bothers me is not Cassandra but the earthshattering move from the pc in the video.  Aragon never perform **** like that.

Aragorn, with a torch, held off a half-dozen unkillable ring wraiths...

And Legolas killed a howdah full of enemies before, with arrows, killing a gigantic oliphaunt, in the span of seconds.

Nope, no gate smashing quality stuff.


Wait, not, let me guess...

"magic torch" and "magic arrows", right?

Modifié par MerinTB, 08 septembre 2013 - 06:02 .

[Rawgrim]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Wich means it should also work against humans. Especially if they are wearing metal.

Not really, unless the humans are up against a wall. Humans tend to fly back before shattering.

It would still kill them. Unless the human body can take more damage in a single blow than a castle gate can.

The dragons in DAI can smash pillars of rock into pebbles without even trying. Anything they'd do to a melee fighter would kill them by your logic.

Yes. But aparantly Cassandra is just as strong as those dragons are. So she should kill anything with one blow too, no?

[immhey]

Zu Long wrote...

immhey wrote...

As I said earlier that it's not a problem with realism here. Yes, the sweep attack does more damage than real human would be able to but it's just a sweep attack. The ground doesn't splited apart, The people who got hit don't explode into pieces. There are different levels of unbelieveable stuff in fantasy.  I don't know how you couldn't tell the difference.  For example Final Fantasy and The Witcher.

See above where I state that Bioware hasn't not altered where they stand on this. People seem to want a Witcher level of combat realism from DA, but it's never been there. Ever. Your character, be they mage, warrior, or rogue has always been superhuman. Bioware has changed the application of that superhuman strength to be more interactable with the environment as befits the new engine, but it's always been there.

I am perfectly aware that DA is more high fantasy than The Witcher but in DA:O, it wasn't this flashy.   DA:O set the theme and expectation for the others to follow.  I think the developers should respect that.  DA2 didn't of course.

[Rawgrim]

MerinTB wrote...

immhey wrote...
That's where DA is at in my imo too but what bothers me is not Cassandra but the earthshattering move from the pc in the video.  Aragon never perform **** like that.

Aragorn, with a torch, held off a half-dozen unkillable ring wraiths...

And Legolas killed a howdah full of enemies before, with arrows, killing a gigantic oliphaunt, in the span of seconds.

Nope, no gate smashing quality stuff.

Legolas fired arrows as quickly as he could. It looked belivable when he did it as well. It doesn`t take much time to fire an arrow.

Aragorn held them off, yes. Didn`t defeat them.

No superhuman stuff involved.

[Uccio]

Rawgrim wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Mostly because it provides a choice for me as a gamer. It informs me that "some obstacles may be passable when it's not immediately obvious." It shows that how I spec a character can open up different paths for my party. These things are things I consider valuable in my RPGs.

If you're seeing this as some reason to toss out the "awesome button" pejorative, however, then it seems like the DA series has always contained the "awesome button" because this stuff has always existed in the game.

Don`t get me wrong, though. Pretty much everything you guys have revealed so far leads me to belive DA:I will be a great game. Possibly pushing BG2 off the pedestal as well. But I think this bit takes things too far in one direction. If we get a good explanation to how or why one can jab down a castle gate with a shield, by all means.

I found it to be a bummer. That kind of ability removes the requirement of battering ram. Or anything required in a castle siege actually. Just send Cassandra (or any other warrior with "break castle 1000" ability) to the gate and in you go. So out of the window goes any requirement of tactics. Just hack´n slass through anything.

Too bad.

[Face of Evil]

When Cassandra starts knocking down walls, I might be tempted to cry "Bulls***!" A barred gate that doesn't look like it was intended to withstand a battering ram is less jarring.

At any rate, wasn't the ability to bash things open always on the forum's wish list? Well, there it is.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 08 septembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Former_Fiend]

Wulfram wrote...

As an aside, what's the betting that there'll be a whole bunch of totally normal doors that we'll have to pick up keys for?

Oh that's a guarentee.

[Zu Long]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I think the OP has a point. It's not about realism, but about the illusion of a believable world. BW mentioned that the over the top combat would be reduced, but with scenes like the crushing of that gate, it seems to be back like never before.

I've looked around, but I haven't found the part where Bioware stated "realistic medieval combat" as one of their selling points for DA:I.

I never claimed that BW promised that ("realistic medieval combat"). I am even stating that it is not about realism. Read what you quoted before reversing my post.

You say it's not about realism but "believability" which as far as I can tell are interchangeable words in this discussion. You find gatesmashing unbelievable because its "over the top," ie unrealistic. So you say it's not about realism while making it about realism. Or am I missing something?

[FireAndBlood]

Wow people are really getting worked up over this.

[addiction21]

Ukki wrote...


I found it to be a bummer. That kind of ability removes the requirement of battering ram. Or anything required in a castle siege actually. Just send Cassandra (or any other warrior with "break castle 1000" ability) to the gate and in you go. So out of the window goes any requirement of tactics. Just hack´n slass through anything.

Too bad.

Awesome button, Hack and Slash are here will we be going for the trifecta and blame it on the CoD crowd next?

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes. But aparantly Cassandra is just as strong as those dragons are. So she should kill anything with one blow too, no?

This thread is dangerously close to being locked if people are just going to start using the arguments used against them as counter arguments back at the people (something that happens WAY too often on this forum as it is).

It's pretty evident that the poster is OKAY with the mechanic in Dragons, and your response conveys and impression that you're not actually understanding what they said. After getting snappy at people for "not reading your posts" this type of behaviour really frustrates me.

It gives the impression that you're just seeking to be argumentative, at this point.

[Savber100]

It's a game. That said, I do wish there was clearer explanation of how an armored knight just smashes a bunch of metal gates. Sure it's a game (hence why I don't mind as much) but I feel like it should be limited by the very lore rules you set.

Once again, the gate smash isn't the end of the world but it does stretch the believability and authenticity of the world you create. If it can be avoided, avoid it. Don't rely on the rule of cool to carry you through.

Personally, I will not be using this ability to break through and use other means to take the castle.

Modifié par Savber100, 08 septembre 2013 - 06:09 .

[esper]

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't quite see the problem as both warrior and rouges are superhuman in da. They were in da:o, da:a and da2. Combat have never pretended to be realistic. I think the video mentioned that Cassandra was specced to be able to break thing, which I think is a much more interesting aspect.

If you hit a metal door with such a force, you should be able to hit people with it too. This makes it overpowered.

If I can stun a dragon 5 time my size (which we could in da:o), yet people still survive when I hit them with the same problem. I do not see the problem.

Thedosdian are superhuman compared to us and made of something much studierer than real life humans. It has always been that way.

So why do they need gunpowder, siege engines and whatsnot if a single person can just bash a gate? And why bother with gates or walls at all?

They don't really need gunpowder, actually. Lyrium and/or mages have the same explosion effect. Qunari just don't like magic.

And have we ever seen a siege engines in game?  I do not remember a battering ramp, beyond the giant armbolt (don't remember the english name, but the once you can use against the archdemon) But if they have them it  must be for the same reason that we have cars even though we have legs that can walk. They are easier to use and can be made more powerfull without tiring a human out the same way.

As for walls. Protection against the weather, protections for you stuff, privacy or just slowing the enemy down. It might only take Cassandra two hit break the door down, but it is still two hit, which means time, which means that if you are a good commander you will be alerted and have more time to prepare for a counteracttack (such as getting the archers in place) something you would not have without the door.

[Topsider]

If a reinforced gate can be broken with ease, then a locked door or chest would be no problem. It looks impressive but I doubt the power demonstrated here will be usable anywhere else, outside of setpieces. A gimmick.

The Frostbite engine is good at destructible environments so I assume they want to show that off.

[Zu Long]

Wulfram wrote...

As an aside, what's the betting that there'll be a whole bunch of totally normal doors that we'll have to pick up keys for?

Or at least have a lockpick skill for. Not much different than people carrying rocket launchers needing keys to open doors in other games, but I'll grant you that Cassandra not being able to knock down anything but a heavily reinforced metal door will be irritating.

[Uccio]

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't quite see the problem as both warrior and rouges are superhuman in da. They were in da:o, da:a and da2. Combat have never pretended to be realistic. I think the video mentioned that Cassandra was specced to be able to break thing, which I think is a much more interesting aspect.

If you hit a metal door with such a force, you should be able to hit people with it too. This makes it overpowered.

If I can stun a dragon 5 time my size (which we could in da:o), yet people still survive when I hit them with the same problem. I do not see the problem.

Thedosdian are superhuman compared to us and made of something much studierer than real life humans. It has always been that way.

So why do they need gunpowder, siege engines and whatsnot if a single person can just bash a gate? And why bother with gates or walls at all?

They don't really need gunpowder, actually. Lyrium and/or mages have the same explosion effect. Qunari just don't like magic.

And have we ever seen a siege engines in game?  I do not remember a battering ramp, beyond the giant armbolt (don't remember the english name, but the once you can use against the archdemon) But if they have them it  must be for the same reason that we have cars even though we have legs that can walk. They are easier to use and can be made more powerfull without tiring a human out the same way.

As for walls. Protection against the weather, protections for you stuff, privacy or just slowing the enemy down. It might only take Cassandra two hit break the door down, but it is still two hit, which means time, which means that if you are a good commander you will be alerted and have more time to prepare for a counteracttack (such as getting the archers in place) something you would not have without the door.

No, the archers are still scrathing their arses in the guard room when Cassandra is in the yard already.

[Sejborg]

It could have been an opportunity to switch up the gameplay a bit. Introduce a little puzzle were you would have to stop and think for a bit.

But nope. Just hammer away at every problem you face, because that's more fun.

[aries1001]

If the steel gate has rusted a great deal, I think it should be made more clear. Normally a rusted steel gate would either spots of rust on it or it would be -ehm- hinging on it hinges. Let me explain:
A door is normally attached to hinges, when these hinges rust the door or part of it will start to fall down a bit. (I hope you get what I'm saying as English isn't my first language).

A steelgate which hadn't been well maintained should/ought to show the wear and to it e.g you can look at some or many rust spots? (I mean where the rust is) maybe especially on the crossbeams going from side to side on the door and maybe also when they meet the length beams. (I really hope you understand me...)

On topic:
I'm fine with Cassandra smashing down the gates of this keep, if it is made clear that the gates are old and rusty and could easily be broken down with a shield bash or something similar. I don't think it is necessary to have her break down the whole gate, though. I would be fine is she broke down a portion of it, say the middle section on one of the gates or both. (This not happening may very well be a engine, FB3, thing, though).
I'm also fine with Cass smashing down steelgate door/steelgates like this if we in the game learns a) her shield is magical shield
her strength need to be equal or greater to X (where can be a random number i.e. 22 or 26 or even 32)

To me, at least, it doesn't make sense that Cass is able to smash a steelgate door maybe two times as tall as her, rusted or not, the door, I mean. A portion of the door(s), maybe, but then again, this could be an engine thing.

ps:
what's happened to the whole find the key thingy, which I personally like. Or as other have suggested, fine some crates of oil in a nearby cave. And throw them at the door. Or if if can use fire to set wooden boats on fire why can't se use it here as well. (sorry, if we can, but I haven't seen it mentioned as of yet). Steel will melt if the fire temperature is high enough...

[Savber100]

Topsider wrote...

If a reinforced gate can be broken with ease, then a locked door or chest would be no problem. It looks impressive but I doubt the power demonstrated here will be usable anywhere else, outside of setpieces. A gimmick.

The Frostbite engine is good at destructible environments so I assume they want to show that off.

If that turns out to be so, I will be concerned. 

As I stated, lets not sacrifice authenticity for the rule of cool. 

Keep it real. Look at other great RPGs that work well within their world without sacrificing the spectacle. 

[Ecmoose]

Rawgrim wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

immhey wrote...
That's where DA is at in my imo too but what bothers me is not Cassandra but the earthshattering move from the pc in the video.  Aragon never perform **** like that.

Aragorn, with a torch, held off a half-dozen unkillable ring wraiths...

And Legolas killed a howdah full of enemies before, with arrows, killing a gigantic oliphaunt, in the span of seconds.

Nope, no gate smashing quality stuff.

Legolas fired arrows as quickly as he could. It looked belivable when he did it as well. It doesn`t take much time to fire an arrow.

Aragorn held them off, yes. Didn`t defeat them.

No superhuman stuff involved.

No it doesn't take much time to shoot an arrow, not if you aren't trying to kill something or ward off an attacker anyway. It actually takes quite a bit of precision and strength to shoot many arrows in quick succession.

Why is it any more believable when Legolas shoots arrows at impossible speeds then it is for Cassandra to take down a gate with impossible strength?

[Savber100]

Sejborg wrote...

It could have been an opportunity to switch up the gameplay a bit. Introduce a little puzzle were you would have to stop and think for a bit.

But nope. Just hammer away at every problem you face, because that's more fun.

Definitely... but Bioware mentioned that they are other ways to take the keep. 

If so, there's definitely options rather than the CassSMASH option. 

[Allan Schumacher]

It could have been an opportunity to switch up the gameplay a bit. Introduce a little puzzle were you would have to stop and think for a bit.

Welcome to demo land. RPGs in and of themselves don't lend well to demos because a lot of what people like about them are driving the narrative in their own way. We had a finite timeslot to do the presentation in, and any puzzle that wouldn't be dismissed as trite and easy within the allotted time probably doesn't exist.

[crimzontearz]

the squees are a little much

aside for that I am pretty much sold on this game I just need NG+ dammit