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[Lord Raijin]

andar91 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Rawgrim 25+ approval

I thought it was tad bit ridiculous myself to see her smashing down the steel gate with just her shield. It's stupid and illogical, and it will be the downfall of this game if BioWare allows to be in the final product.

Cassandra is NOT an Ogre.How can her shield possibly demolished a steel gate? Doesn't make any sense.

It's one thing that some people might not like. Don't you think it's a little silly to call it the "downfall of the game"?

Not really. People like myself don't want to be intellectually insulted when something like this happens. I was insulted plenty of times in DA2 by being sorrounded by imciles NPCs, especially ones like Knight-Captain Cullen who couldn't figure out if I was a mage.... even know I was holding up a mage staff and wore robes yet struggles to figure out if the rumors are true about me being a mage.

While it maybe badass to see Cassandara smashing down the metal gate with her uber strength of her sheld... the fact is their should be an intellectual process of doing it... possibly by putting explosives near the gate so it can explode. That is the most logical thing to do. After all you can now burn down boats. Why throw explosives at the gate to get it open?

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Rawgrim wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Archaven wrote...

Lol.. So it's ok you can shoot fire out of your hand or from a wooden staff because it's magic and you cant bash off a gate with brute strength and it's not logic?

Well if anything to make for realism cost more work. It can easily be reworked by better animations of Cassandra using her ability that shows a transparent battering ram crashing down the gates? Anyhow the results are the same. No point wasting too much effort on it where it can be spent elsewhere.

Again: Magic is explained and it is part of the lore. In Thedas mages can shoot fire out of their hands. Its in all the games. Nowhere in the codex or anyone else is it explained that people have superhuman strength.

My view on this is that if we can accept a world where people can call down fire from the heavens with a mere thought, why is it so hard to accept that some people can be exceptional in other ways? Just because the codex doesn't mention specific feats does not mean they aren't possible. And that's not even going I to how gameplay is often divorced from what we see in the story/cutscenes.

The codex doesn`t mention spaceships and submarines either. Would it be cool if those showed up?

Depends on how it were introduced, I suppose. Though considering this game doesn't belong to a genre that fits either I consider their appearance unlikely. However, since we are playing a fantasy game I do expect the occassional exceptional individual/feat.

[Rawgrim]

Aldandil wrote...

I agree that it seems over the top. However, I managed to overlook it in NWN, for instance, so I guess I can manage here too.

True, but in Neverwinter Nights it took quite some time to bash in a normal wooden door. Even longer if it was a metal door. In this case its a castle GATE in 2 slams with a shield. One handed. Looks like no effort at all is being used.

[andar91]

Archaven wrote...

Lol.. So it's ok you can shoot fire out of your hand or from a wooden staff because it's magic and you cant bash off a gate with brute strength and it's not logic?

Well if anything to make for realism cost more work. It can easily be reworked by better animations of Cassandra using her ability that shows a transparent battering ram crashing down the gates? Anyhow the results are the same. No point wasting too much effort on it where it can be spent elsewhere.

Though I don't agree with Rawgrim on this point (well, I agree it's a stretch, but I don't necessarily hate it), I have to admit that I have an issue with this argument whenever it's made. There is a big difference between magic and ordinary people doing something.

Picture X-Men, for instance (I dunno, it just came to mind). Colossus, while transformed, has super-strength. So Colossus smashing down a wall is not out of the question. However, Kitty Pryde doing it is because her powers are different. 

It's the same sort of thing in fantasy. Yes, mages can do extraordinary things. But Cassandra is a non-magical human being (as far as we know lol), so the rules of our world still presumably apply to her. 

My argument is that, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't really that big of a deal. If I could make any change I want, I would probably change this because it is a little silly. Or even better, make Cassandra's ability weaken the gate but not smash it to bits--I feel like that would be more belieavable. Then, maybe the battering ram you find has an easier time smashing it down or something.

[GDog89]

Yeah a Human even with a great Brute strength would not be able to break through thick steel gates even with a shield might dent but break gonna need serious blunt damage like cannon fire or something.

[Aolbain]

Rawgrim wrote...

Daissran wrote...

Jayne126 wrote...

No wonder the Keep was taken.

But we're talking about the girl who moves in heavy armor like a ninja.

I think you mean battle-trained warrior.

The current holder of the Mary-Sue of the century title.

Wuh?

[TheCharmedOne]

its a video game, and they sacrificed a little realism for a fun factor...oh maker alert the templars...i like the function, it looks fun and entertaining. i have no problems with it

[Former_Fiend]

andar91 wrote...

Archaven wrote...

Lol.. So it's ok you can shoot fire out of your hand or from a wooden staff because it's magic and you cant bash off a gate with brute strength and it's not logic?

Well if anything to make for realism cost more work. It can easily be reworked by better animations of Cassandra using her ability that shows a transparent battering ram crashing down the gates? Anyhow the results are the same. No point wasting too much effort on it where it can be spent elsewhere.

Though I don't agree with Rawgrim on this point (well, I agree it's a stretch, but I don't necessarily hate it), I have to admit that I have an issue with this argument whenever it's made. There is a big difference between magic and ordinary people doing something.

Picture X-Men, for instance (I dunno, it just came to mind). Colossus, while transformed, has super-strength. So Colossus smashing down a wall is not out of the question. However, Kitty Pryde doing it is because her powers are different. 

It's the same sort of thing in fantasy. Yes, mages can do extraordinary things. But Cassandra is a non-magical human being (as far as we know lol), so the rules of our world still presumably apply to her. 

My argument is that, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't really that big of a deal. If I could make any change I want, I would probably change this because it is a little silly. Or even better, make Cassandra's ability weaken the gate but not smash it to bits--I feel like that would be more belieavable. Then, maybe the battering ram you find has an easier time smashing it down or something.

Whenever a warrior fights a golem with a sword and manages to beat it, they are performing a superhuman feat. Whenever a warrior manages to stagger an ogre, they're doing something superhuman. Whenever they manage to not get crushed into a fine paste by a dragon, they're doing something superhuman.

This series has never been built on realism. Just because it's not so over the top as other fantasy games doesn't mean it's bound by the laws of physics.

[Rawgrim]

Former_Fiend wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Archaven wrote...

Lol.. So it's ok you can shoot fire out of your hand or from a wooden staff because it's magic and you cant bash off a gate with brute strength and it's not logic?

Well if anything to make for realism cost more work. It can easily be reworked by better animations of Cassandra using her ability that shows a transparent battering ram crashing down the gates? Anyhow the results are the same. No point wasting too much effort on it where it can be spent elsewhere.

Though I don't agree with Rawgrim on this point (well, I agree it's a stretch, but I don't necessarily hate it), I have to admit that I have an issue with this argument whenever it's made. There is a big difference between magic and ordinary people doing something.

Picture X-Men, for instance (I dunno, it just came to mind). Colossus, while transformed, has super-strength. So Colossus smashing down a wall is not out of the question. However, Kitty Pryde doing it is because her powers are different. 

It's the same sort of thing in fantasy. Yes, mages can do extraordinary things. But Cassandra is a non-magical human being (as far as we know lol), so the rules of our world still presumably apply to her. 

My argument is that, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't really that big of a deal. If I could make any change I want, I would probably change this because it is a little silly. Or even better, make Cassandra's ability weaken the gate but not smash it to bits--I feel like that would be more belieavable. Then, maybe the battering ram you find has an easier time smashing it down or something.

Whenever a warrior fights a golem with a sword and manages to beat it, they are performing a superhuman feat. Whenever a warrior manages to stagger an ogre, they're doing something superhuman. Whenever they manage to not get crushed into a fine paste by a dragon, they're doing something superhuman.

This series has never been built on realism. Just because it's not so over the top as other fantasy games doesn't mean it's bound by the laws of physics.

Nowhere is it stated thet the laws of physics are different in Thedas.

[andar91]

Former_Fiend wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Archaven wrote...

Lol.. So it's ok you can shoot fire out of your hand or from a wooden staff because it's magic and you cant bash off a gate with brute strength and it's not logic?

Well if anything to make for realism cost more work. It can easily be reworked by better animations of Cassandra using her ability that shows a transparent battering ram crashing down the gates? Anyhow the results are the same. No point wasting too much effort on it where it can be spent elsewhere.

Though I don't agree with Rawgrim on this point (well, I agree it's a stretch, but I don't necessarily hate it), I have to admit that I have an issue with this argument whenever it's made. There is a big difference between magic and ordinary people doing something.

Picture X-Men, for instance (I dunno, it just came to mind). Colossus, while transformed, has super-strength. So Colossus smashing down a wall is not out of the question. However, Kitty Pryde doing it is because her powers are different. 

It's the same sort of thing in fantasy. Yes, mages can do extraordinary things. But Cassandra is a non-magical human being (as far as we know lol), so the rules of our world still presumably apply to her. 

My argument is that, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't really that big of a deal. If I could make any change I want, I would probably change this because it is a little silly. Or even better, make Cassandra's ability weaken the gate but not smash it to bits--I feel like that would be more belieavable. Then, maybe the battering ram you find has an easier time smashing it down or something.

Whenever a warrior fights a golem with a sword and manages to beat it, they are performing a superhuman feat. Whenever a warrior manages to stagger an ogre, they're doing something superhuman. Whenever they manage to not get crushed into a fine paste by a dragon, they're doing something superhuman.

This series has never been built on realism. Just because it's not so over the top as other fantasy games doesn't mean it's bound by the laws of physics.

I agree with you, I just don't think the argument that "magic happens so X must happen as well" is a very good one. I agree completely with the point that this is a game, so things aren't going to be realistic. I mean, realistically, being hit even once or twice by an arrow would disable or outright kill you. So would being frozen solid. Games (including pen-n-paper, which are usually more grounded in reality by a slim margin) have always dealt with things in abstraction.

I think the gate smash situation is just a bit of a bigger stretch than some things, but like I said, I don't think it's a big deal.

[The Six Path of Pain]

While I have to agree with some that it is a fantasy setting. But this pretty much falls into the same category as DA2 gameplay. If Cassandra can do this then why couldn't Alistair or Avaline do this as well. And if she has that kind of power than it should be implemented all through out the rest of the game. Example: She should be able to outright kill an enemy with a single shield bash. Personally I hope they remove it and go back to using keys.

[Daissran]

Former_Fiend wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Archaven wrote...

Lol.. So it's ok you can shoot fire out of your hand or from a wooden staff because it's magic and you cant bash off a gate with brute strength and it's not logic?

Well if anything to make for realism cost more work. It can easily be reworked by better animations of Cassandra using her ability that shows a transparent battering ram crashing down the gates? Anyhow the results are the same. No point wasting too much effort on it where it can be spent elsewhere.

Though I don't agree with Rawgrim on this point (well, I agree it's a stretch, but I don't necessarily hate it), I have to admit that I have an issue with this argument whenever it's made. There is a big difference between magic and ordinary people doing something.

Picture X-Men, for instance (I dunno, it just came to mind). Colossus, while transformed, has super-strength. So Colossus smashing down a wall is not out of the question. However, Kitty Pryde doing it is because her powers are different. 

It's the same sort of thing in fantasy. Yes, mages can do extraordinary things. But Cassandra is a non-magical human being (as far as we know lol), so the rules of our world still presumably apply to her. 

My argument is that, in the grand scheme of things, this isn't really that big of a deal. If I could make any change I want, I would probably change this because it is a little silly. Or even better, make Cassandra's ability weaken the gate but not smash it to bits--I feel like that would be more belieavable. Then, maybe the battering ram you find has an easier time smashing it down or something.

Whenever a warrior fights a golem with a sword and manages to beat it, they are performing a superhuman feat. Whenever a warrior manages to stagger an ogre, they're doing something superhuman. Whenever they manage to not get crushed into a fine paste by a dragon, they're doing something superhuman.

This series has never been built on realism. Just because it's not so over the top as other fantasy games doesn't mean it's bound by the laws of physics.

Which is what makes the game so much fun. We need that 'superhuman' edge, otherwise our dear warden probably wouldn't have even survived Ostagar and Hawke would have been minced by an ogre.

[Thunderfox]

don't like it, use the tunnels or go around the back wall like they said in the demo.

[Rawgrim]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

While I have to agree with some that it is a fantasy setting. But this pretty much falls into the same category as DA2 gameplay. If Cassandra can do this then why couldn't Alistair or Avaline do this as well. And if she has that kind of power than it should be implemented all through out the rest of the game. Example: She should be able to outright kill an enemy with a single shield bash. Personally I hope they remove it and go back to using keys.

Exactly. It causes ripples through the story and the lore.

[Lord Raijin]

MasterScribe wrote...

Here's the moment in question, for objective analysis

It pains to me to hear people screaming out like if they just saw Justin Bieber naked body after Cassandra just crumbled that metal gate. It was embarrassing to see them approving this kind of behavior.

[Former_Fiend]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

While I have to agree with some that it is a fantasy setting. But this pretty much falls into the same category as DA2 gameplay. If Cassandra can do this then why couldn't Alistair or Avaline do this as well. And if she has that kind of power than it should be implemented all through out the rest of the game. Example: She should be able to outright kill an enemy with a single shield bash. Personally I hope they remove it and go back to using keys.

The Doylist answer is simple; different game engines. Frostbite allows for destructible environments, the old engine did not. 

[AresKeith]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Here's the moment in question, for objective analysis

It pains to me to hear people screaming out like if they just saw Justin Bieber naked body after Cassandra just crumbled that metal gate. It was embarrassing to see them approving this kind of behavior.

I know your not the one talking about behavior

[Rawgrim]

ThunderfoxF wrote...

don't like it, use the tunnels or go around the back wall like they said in the demo.

It renders those two choices mute, when it is clearly so easy to just smash metal gates.

[andar91]

Rawgrim wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...

don't like it, use the tunnels or go around the back wall like they said in the demo.

It renders those two choices mute, when it is clearly so easy to just smash metal gates.

I wouldn't say the choices are moot. This is a roleplaying game, right? So if you think smashing through the gate strains credulity, then use the other options.

[Teahuppoo]

I dont like ir either

they should bring agents with cannons for these moments

[Thunderfox]

Rawgrim wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...

don't like it, use the tunnels or go around the back wall like they said in the demo.

It renders those two choices mute, when it is clearly so easy to just smash metal gates.

They also said that you have to spec Cassandra or another warrior to do it, so spend the points elsewhere. Its a roleplaying game, you don't have to be min-max munchkin you can just play the way you want to.

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 08 septembre 2013 - 04:16 .

[Rawgrim]

andar91 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...

don't like it, use the tunnels or go around the back wall like they said in the demo.

It renders those two choices mute, when it is clearly so easy to just smash metal gates.

I wouldn't say the choices are moot. This is a roleplaying game, right? So if you think smashing through the gate strains credulity, then use the other options.

It would make no sense to spend 15 minutes sneaking into a place, when you have a loaded tank standing right outside the door.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rawgrim wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

While I have to agree with some that it is a fantasy setting. But this pretty much falls into the same category as DA2 gameplay. If Cassandra can do this then why couldn't Alistair or Avaline do this as well. And if she has that kind of power than it should be implemented all through out the rest of the game. Example: She should be able to outright kill an enemy with a single shield bash. Personally I hope they remove it and go back to using keys.

Exactly. It causes ripples through the story and the lore.

I, personally, roll my eyes at the "but there's dragons and magic" argument.

Look, let's look at it from another angle of realism. Would it make sense for Templars to see Apostates, let alone Blood Mages, and not comment on them, let alone attempt to kill them on sight? Would it make sense that if you demeaned and violated nearly every principle a person based their entire viewpoint in life on, that they would fall madly in love with you? Would it make sense that if you killed a character, they suddenly would be able to magically appear again without any explanation or reason?

These are all examples of story behaving in ways that don't at all make sense. No one sees these things and says "well, there's dragons, so all of the above examples of ludicrous narrative should be given a free pass. After all... MAGIC!"

I mean... if a game tried to pull off that kind of story nonsense AS WELL as gameplay contrivances and tried to hide behind the "fantasy setting" argument to handwave it all... man, that would be a pretty terrible game. 

[darkblueglass]

In the video, it says a warrior could break a gate unless it is reinforced so we won't be able to break all the doors. Who knows? The keep wasn't maintinaed very well (most likely if you think of the keep's history) so the gate was all rusty and weakened.
If you try to find the logic, you can easily find it.
You can think the Venatories inside didn't have time to reinforce the door.

Update: actually it wan't mentined in the video about the reinforcement. I think I heard that from a bioware panel video. If I find it, I will update the link.

Modifié par darkblueglass, 08 septembre 2013 - 04:21 .

[Rawgrim]

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...

don't like it, use the tunnels or go around the back wall like they said in the demo.

It renders those two choices mute, when it is clearly so easy to just smash metal gates.

They also said that you have to spec Cassandra or another warrior to do it, so spend the points elsewhere. Its a roleplaying game, you don't have to be min-max munchkin you can just play the way you want to.

Its the fact that it is there. Ruins immersion like there was no tomorrow. Doesn`t matter if it requires leveling up. That is not the point at all. Its the awsome button all over again.