341 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Rawgrim wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
If its the shield she uses it should still be able to do the same amount of damage to humans as it does to the metal gate. Instant death.

Ok, look at what Vivienne is doing here.


Her spell is creating craters in the ground. And yet, I promise you that any sufficiently high leveled warrior would be able to just shrug being hit by one of those "meteors". NAKED.

Depends on how high up the meteros are falling from, doesn`t it? She is just summoning them out of thin air some place above the enemy.

They're forming craters. Anything that forms craters on a stone floor is perfectly capable og smashing someone. But that spell won't be an one hit kill anymore than Cassandra's shield will.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:02 .

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

The justifying of unrealistic stuff because of the presence of unrealistic stuff is annoying.  The inevitable conclusion of that logic is that all games should abandon all grounding in reality, because they all have some sort of seed of unreality that can be used as the excuse for the next bit and the next bit. 

Which is what it seems like has happened to the Warriors in DA:O.  Admittedly they were never the pinnacle of realism, but they've gone from something that was at least somewhat grounded to a class that seem like they'd be better off basically fluffed as a variety of mage. 

But there's no sliding scale here. Warrior combat, in DA:O, is just a middle finger to realism. The fact that there's no grappling, that the majority of the abilities we see being used in DA:O aren't 1-hit KOs, the fact that people never suffer burns, broken bones, physical exhaustion... 

The gameplay is just such a middle finger to what melee combat between humans looks like that complaining about some particular physical feat that warriors do is silly. Because everything they do is equally silly. 

The real complaint is that everyone has some arbitrary line that they feel stretches their ability to suspend disbelief, and they want their game to look fake only to a certain degree in certain areas. But that's at least an honest way of putting it,  instead of this talk about "realism" when nothing in an RPG's melee combat even comes close to realism. 

There's no video game out there that shows realistic combat when it has an HP bar that can handle multiple hits. 

[Teahuppoo]

They could use the freaking mage to summon one of those huge hands of stone and smash the gate.

why are they using a warrior? it makes no sense

[Rawgrim]

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Healing spells and healing potions heal the damage. If you don`t use those things warriors die from being electrocuted, stabbed, burned, frozen and whatsnot.

There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

It heals you while you are burning Anyway, nobody said DA:O was the pinnacle of realism either. But Cassandra shamsing a metal gate like that is just way out there. Its like introducing cellphones to the setting for no good reason other than having it replace the awsome button.

[Wissenschaft]

Teahuppoo wrote...

They could use the freaking mage to summon one of those huge hands of stone and smash the gate.

why are they using a warrior? it makes no sense

 

Because Bioware wants people to have a reason to use warriors and rogues, rather than just have a party of nothing but mages because the other classes suck in comparision. 

Anyway, Dragon Age has never claimed to have realistic combat so I'm always confused when people make these complaints. What made people think that Warriors and Rogues in DA: O were realistic?

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:04 .

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...
There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

All of this.

Some people clearly don't want Dragon Age to be Dragon Age.  They want it to be, I don't know, what's a medieval knights in armor sort setting where unrealistic physics doesn't exist?  I'm straining to think of one - is Game of Thrones devoid of magic and monsters?

The disconnect from two games establishing the "realism" of the setting, as well as a cartoon movie and several novels and comics, and yet the third game in the series gets hit for "gate busting" being "unrealistic."

Inside the rules of the Dragon Age setting?  Absolutely realistic.  If you have a problem with all the lack of "gritty realism" in Dragon Age, maybe fantasy fiction video games aren't really your cup of tea.

Modifié par MerinTB, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:04 .

[Vit246]

I kinda agree with the OP. But I'll get over it.

[Elhanan]

I was also a little concerned when I watched this for similar reasons. But as long as the ability can be restricted from spamming (eg; single object per 300 seconds), such a fantastical talent should be on par with some top Tier spells, IMO.

[Former_Fiend]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

While I have to agree with some that it is a fantasy setting. But this pretty much falls into the same category as DA2 gameplay. If Cassandra can do this then why couldn't Alistair or Avaline do this as well. And if she has that kind of power than it should be implemented all through out the rest of the game. Example: She should be able to outright kill an enemy with a single shield bash. Personally I hope they remove it and go back to using keys.

The Doylist answer is simple; different game engines. Frostbite allows for destructible environments, the old engine did not. 

And I thought the whole destroying a pillar to kill the archer moment in the demo was cool. More than cool it was plain awesome! I just don't like the whole destroying a metal gate with a a simple shield and as I said I can pretty much guarantee she won't have that same power when attacking an enemy.

I think the flaw in that logic is that by all apperances, people in the DA universe are apparently tougher than metal gates. Otherwise every fight with an ogre would boil down to what happened to Calien.

Highly dout that human bodies are tougher than metal. Why would warriors even bother wearing armor if that was the case.

Well, in case it wasn't obvious, I was joking.

That being said, whatever explaination you want to give it, be it game mechanics or what, the player characters in DA games have been surviving things that no human has the right to survive since origins. Getting puched by a golem should crush a person's skull and cave their chest in. Getting bit by a dragon should result in that person being in three pieces with one of those pieces being in the dragon's gullet. And it's not just heavily armored warriors, though they can obviously take more of a beating. Byt I've had mages walk away- hurting, but on their feet walking- from blows that should by all rights crippled them for life. 


My point is that you can complain about Cassandra' shield bash being more effective against metal gates than against people, which may or may not be true, but the pc's been displaying that same super human durability since origins. This isn't anything new.

[lady_v23]

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Healing spells and healing potions heal the damage. If you don`t use those things warriors die from being electrocuted, stabbed, burned, frozen and whatsnot.

There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

It heals you while you are burning Anyway, nobody said DA:O was the pinnacle of realism either. But Cassandra shamsing a metal gate like that is just way out there. Its like introducing cellphones to the setting for no good reason other than having it replace the awsome button.

...you're just going in circles now.

[slimgrin]

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Healing spells and healing potions heal the damage. If you don`t use those things warriors die from being electrocuted, stabbed, burned, frozen and whatsnot.

There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

That's not the argument he's making. Every game world has a degree of credulity. If Cassandra was able to leap 50 ft into the air and start tossing ogres around like they're kittens, most people would say it looks ridiculous. So does one warrior smashing through a steel gate. But then, it's not the most grevious error we've seen in the series as all of DA2 was more over the top than this. 

[Rawgrim]

MisterJB wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
If its the shield she uses it should still be able to do the same amount of damage to humans as it does to the metal gate. Instant death.

Ok, look at what Vivienne is doing here.


Her spell is creating craters in the ground. And yet, I promise you that any sufficiently high leveled warrior would be able to just shrug being hit by one of those "meteors". NAKED.

Depends on how high up the meteros are falling from, doesn`t it? She is just summoning them out of thin air some place above the enemy.

They're forming craters. Anything that forms craters on a stone floor is perfectly capable og smashing someone. But that spell won't be an one hit kill anymore than Cassandra's shield will.

Given that Cassandra can smash in a metal gate with her shield, it should logically cause one hit kills. You can`t make one of them make sense if it excludes the other.

[lady_v23]

In Exile wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The justifying of unrealistic stuff because of the presence of unrealistic stuff is annoying.  The inevitable conclusion of that logic is that all games should abandon all grounding in reality, because they all have some sort of seed of unreality that can be used as the excuse for the next bit and the next bit. 

Which is what it seems like has happened to the Warriors in DA:O.  Admittedly they were never the pinnacle of realism, but they've gone from something that was at least somewhat grounded to a class that seem like they'd be better off basically fluffed as a variety of mage. 

But there's no sliding scale here. Warrior combat, in DA:O, is just a middle finger to realism. The fact that there's no grappling, that the majority of the abilities we see being used in DA:O aren't 1-hit KOs, the fact that people never suffer burns, broken bones, physical exhaustion... 

The gameplay is just such a middle finger to what melee combat between humans looks like that complaining about some particular physical feat that warriors do is silly. Because everything they do is equally silly. 

The real complaint is that everyone has some arbitrary line that they feel stretches their ability to suspend disbelief, and they want their game to look fake only to a certain degree in certain areas. But that's at least an honest way of putting it,  instead of this talk about "realism" when nothing in an RPG's melee combat even comes close to realism. 

There's no video game out there that shows realistic combat when it has an HP bar that can handle multiple hits. 

this!

[Lord Raijin]

MerinTB wrote...

Also - Cassandra is a Seeker. That's a level above Templar, as far as I understand it.

Templars are men, not mages, resistant to magic and able to do clearly magical things.

"Because of lyrium!"

Who's to say that Seekers aren't equally endowed?

And - anyone who's taken the time to watch Dawn of the Seeker, and see Cassandra taking down, single-handedly, a half dozen adult dragons in one fight, shouldn't question her ability to defeat a gate.

Realism is not Dragon Age's watch-word.

Seekers aren't one giant army of these thats walking about.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:08 .

[Rawgrim]

lady_v23 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Healing spells and healing potions heal the damage. If you don`t use those things warriors die from being electrocuted, stabbed, burned, frozen and whatsnot.

There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

It heals you while you are burning Anyway, nobody said DA:O was the pinnacle of realism either. But Cassandra shamsing a metal gate like that is just way out there. Its like introducing cellphones to the setting for no good reason other than having it replace the awsome button.

...you're just going in circles now.

Not really. I did state flat out that there is stuff in the previous games that are lame too. Its not my fault that people ignore that I agree with them on that.

[Wissenschaft]

Elhanan wrote...

I was also a little concerned when I watched this for similar reasons. But as long as the ability can be restricted from spamming (eg; single object per 300 seconds), such a fantastical talent should be on par with some top Tier spells, IMO.

 

Considering its just one way to gain entrance to the keep, if you dislike the gate bashing then you can enter by a different method such as through the sewers. 

Rawgrim point appears to be that Warriors and Rogue should be restricted to be realistic when they have obviously never have been in the DA series. Why this insistance on a realism thats never been present in the series? I don't know.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:09 .

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
All of this.

Some people clearly don't want Dragon Age to be Dragon Age.  They want it to be, I don't know, what's a medieval knights in armor ort setting where unrealistic physics doesn't exist?  I'm straining to think of one - is Game of Thrones devoid of magic and monsters?

Game of Thrones tries for realistic combat - at least in the books - so I imagine that's what people want? 

Except that Game of Thrones is quite realistic about what the Others do to people with swords, which is typically "kill them all in very painfull ways quickly".  

No one wants to play a game where your character dies slowly after the first overwhlem, their guts ripped out and their throat torn open. 

Or dying the first time you're sorrounded by three darkspawn, since they rush you like animals, pull you down to the ground, and rip you apart. 

Inside the rules of the Dragon Age setting?  Absolutely realistic.  If you have a problem with all the lack of "gritty realism" in Dragon Age, maybe fantasy fiction video games aren't really your cup of tea.

I'm with you here. See? We do agree on things! 

[lady_v23]

Rawgrim wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Healing spells and healing potions heal the damage. If you don`t use those things warriors die from being electrocuted, stabbed, burned, frozen and whatsnot.

There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

It heals you while you are burning Anyway, nobody said DA:O was the pinnacle of realism either. But Cassandra shamsing a metal gate like that is just way out there. Its like introducing cellphones to the setting for no good reason other than having it replace the awsome button.

...you're just going in circles now.

Not really. I did state flat out that there is stuff in the previous games that are lame too. Its not my fault that people ignore that I agree with them on that.

but they always been there!  why are you complaining about something that has always existed!?

[addiction21]

In Exile wrote...

I'm with you here. See? We do agree on things! 

I'm scared.

[Former_Fiend]

Wulfram wrote...

The justifying of unrealistic stuff because of the presence of unrealistic stuff is annoying.  The inevitable conclusion of that logic is that all games should abandon all grounding in reality, because they all have some sort of seed of unreality that can be used as the excuse for the next bit and the next bit.

Which is what it seems like has happened to the Warriors in DA:O.  Admittedly they were never the pinnacle of realism, but they've gone from something that was at least somewhat grounded to a class that seem like they'd be better off basically fluffed as a variety of mage.

I for one am not justifying a human performing an act of super human strength by pointing out that other humans in the setting can summon fire from their hands. I'm justifying it by pointing out that they've always been able to do things that are beyond what a normal human can do. 

And I think this thread is absurd because it's attacking a feature of the new engine(destructable enviornments) as being lore breaking over game mechanics, when something like this can be easily justified with, as others have pointed out, the gate being in poor repair. 

[Wissenschaft]

lady_v23 wrote...
but they always been there!  why are you complaining about something that has always existed!?

 

I kind of get the feeling that the OP just wants to start an arguement for the sake of arguement. Happens all the time on these forums.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 08 septembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[In Exile]

slimgrin wrote...
That's not the argument he's making. Every game world has a degree of credulity. If Cassandra was able to leap 50 ft into the air and start tossing ogres around like they're kittens, most people would say it looks ridiculous. So does one warrior smashing through a steel gate. But then, it's not the most grevious error we've seen in the series as all of DA2 was more over the top than this.  

People would, in a game that wants to pretend it's midly realistic in portraying physical combat. But that's not what Cass did. She smashed a game, which as JB points out, it's far more impressive than smashing a wood barricade in DA:O. It's badass normal, with the protagonist exception. 

[Zu Long]

*Sigh* People need to get over this notion that Dragon Age is some kind of Medieval Simulation. It's not. It's NEVER been that way. As people have pointed out, DA:O had plenty of completely unrealistic facets. My 100lbs soaking wet city elf warrior that you see in my profile picture ran around in heavy armor, and could fling whole groups of armored enemies through the air using a two-handed maul that was BIGGER THAN SHE WAS. She could stun Dragons and Ogres who outweighed her by orders of magnitude by pommel striking them.

To me? All of this was awesome. I deliberately played as a warrior elf in part for the hilarity of this tiny woman running around beating up fantasy monsters. I realize that isn't to everyone's taste, but don't pretend like this is some kind of shift on Bioware's part. They firmly set themselves here from the very beginning.

[Rawgrim]

lady_v23 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Healing spells and healing potions heal the damage. If you don`t use those things warriors die from being electrocuted, stabbed, burned, frozen and whatsnot.

There's no "heal spell" for being set on fire. You burn alive, your armour melts into your flesh, your hair catches fire, your skin roasts, and you roll on the ground begging to die after the first fireball that you're hit with. 

DA:O is very clear that you can be set on fre and get up like it's nothing. A dragon can crush you in its jaw, through you 20 feet and you can get up like it's nothing.

Hell, you can be turned into a pincussion by arrows without wearing any armour and still be fine. 

It heals you while you are burning Anyway, nobody said DA:O was the pinnacle of realism either. But Cassandra shamsing a metal gate like that is just way out there. Its like introducing cellphones to the setting for no good reason other than having it replace the awsome button.

...you're just going in circles now.

Not really. I did state flat out that there is stuff in the previous games that are lame too. Its not my fault that people ignore that I agree with them on that.

but they always been there!  why are you complaining about something that has always existed!?

As I explained 4-5 times earlier, things like these are way too much "out there". And is messes so much with the lore when a single human being can smash down a metal gate of a keep like it was made out of twigs.