270 réponses à ce sujet

[dduane o]

LTD wrote...

It is sad thing we live in times where mere idea of puzzles in RPG feels like some hostile insult to people playing RPGs. Single player experience in RPGs is very rarely challenging/difficult/competitive. Certainly not unless player wishes for it.

When was the last time you did not know what to do in your RPG?* Last time it was not immemdiately clear how to nudge the story next step onwards? Is it only a good thing these moments are usually completely non-existant in modern RPGs?

It is downright sad how few tools almost all modern RPGs have in store for challenging player;  If player insists on it, combat can be difficult. And..well that's pretty much it. Legend of Grimrock and The Secret World felt incredibly, beautifully fresh breaths of wind in this regard. They reminded me of how reality could be very different. And how good puzzle/riddle/mystery to solve or investigate can, in modern video games, be something so much more than some Tower of Hanoi variant.



*something simple and dismissable like failing to notice lever in wall at some SKyrim dungeon doesn't count!

right in the quad.

but dragon age hasn't been BIG of puzzles.  it's more battle startegy though. but yp you're right.

[Ecmoose]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Now, gate bashing would make sense if you had a really strong character, like Shale. After all, one of your dialogue options in Origins was to call Shale a portable battering-ram. Otherwise, you should have to bring a mage who's skilled in offensive magic. Or a good ol' fashioned sapper. If the darkspawn can make bombs, so can we.

Why is Shale any stronger than any other warrior on your group. Yes, she's a golem, so that gives her some inherent strength, but stat wise, Alistair, Sten, Dog, Oghren or anyone you dumbed strength stats into would have been on equal footing with her. All of your companions are exceptional individuals with attributes far exceeding the norm. Cassandra as a warrior focuses on strength and weakening armored enemies. Why shouldn't she be able to apply that same knowledge to an armored door?

[Nefla]

I thought it was weird that she could smash down a giant castle gate meant to keep out armies. A small wooden door I could see but...also I like riddles and puzzles, the harder the better My best friend and I would spend hours playing Myst and Riven when we were in middle school and put our heads together to solve the puzzles. More puzzles+problem solving+ investigations+ mystery solving+ riddles=better! IMO (though I don't really care if puzzles are used to open doors or not, as long as they exist)

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
For me personally, it's just a matter of it going beyond my personal willing suspension of disbelief.  It makes me wonder why anyone would even bother with a gate if someone can smash it down that easily.

I just don't engage in that reasoning. Like the Warden killing 2000 people by the end of DA:O. Find 40 people like that, send them into the Deep Roads, and you've allowed Orzammar to re-create an empire. 

Or something like storm of the century. If you had two mages on a bridge casting that spell, it would render the very idea of having an army at Ostagar redundant.

I'm glad to let things pass as long as I feel they make the game more fun. This just happens to be an instance where not only do I find no increase in fun from this mechanic, but rather a loss in fun. Actual offensive siege mechanics is something I've never encountered outside a strategy game, nd I think it would be neat to actually attack from a siege tower, or through a tunnel under the walls. It turns what seems like it could be a fun mechanic into a simple button press (and admittedly, apparently some build choices) and that bothers me, so my mind immediately goes looking for things to dislike about the mechanic. As I said, it's not a dealbreaker, but it turns what could have been a positive into a negative for me.

Anyway, thanks for sharing Vael! I'm looking forward to hearing more about level scaling... then we can open up a thread about it and have a debate with Sylvius like the good ol' days. Though I've got a more nuanced view that I wonder if you'd agree with. 

I look forward to it.

[Vaeliorin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
As it happens, I agree with Vael on this one.  My objection to mechanics such as this is based on exactly the same basis as my objection to level scaling (so I don't get how Vael and I can disagree so strongly on that point).  It damage's the setting's coherence.

The reason why we disagree on level scaling and not on this is, as I said in my most recent response to In_Exile, that level scaling increases my enjoyment of a game (as I like challenging combat and think easy combat is a waste of my time) while the gate smashing mechanic has an, at best, neutral effect. I'm willing to accept a lot of damage to the setting's coherence if it makes the game more fun for me (I think this is largely because using a game's rules to completely break it is something of an unintentional hobby of mine, so pretty much every game system/setting seems fairly broken to me), whereas you've mentioned in the past that incoherence of the setting decreases your enjoyment, hence why we agree about the gate smashing, and disagree about level scaling.

If, as you've mentioned, there's more to being able to smash the gates than simply taking certain talents and pressing a button at the appropriate time, then it's entirely possible my stance on the subject couod change

[Uccio]

In Exile wrote...

I just don't engage in that reasoning. Like the Warden killing 2000 people by the end of DA:O. Find 40 people like that, send them into the Deep Roads, and you've allowed Orzammar to re-create an empire. 

It is still more believable than Hulk Cassandra smashing through the gate. In history there are people known to be deadly in the battlefield who killed a big bunch of enemies and lived to die old age. However, there has not been any person in history known to hulk smash through iron gates.

If you accept Hulk smash then you wouldn´t mind to have the option to have your team jump over the fortifications, grab a rainbow and kill garrison in one swing wouldn´t you? Fantasy right?

[In Exile]

Vaeliorin wrote...
I'm glad to let things pass as long as I feel they make the game more fun. This just happens to be an instance where not only do I find no increase in fun from this mechanic, but rather a loss in fun. Actual offensive siege mechanics is something I've never encountered outside a strategy game, and I think it would be neat to actually attack from a siege tower, or through a tunnel under the walls.  

I agree that it would be a fun mechanic, but I think that it would be costly to introduce in DA:I. I hope, however, that it would be something that Bioware could add if DA:I is as succesful as its looking like it will be. I can barely contain my excitement over playable Qunari. 

It turns what seems like it could be a fun mechanic into a simple button press (and admittedly, apparently some build choices) and that bothers me, so my mind immediately goes looking for things to dislike about the mechanic. As I said, it's not a dealbreaker, but it turns what could have been a positive into a negative for me.

Understandable, and I didn't think about it that way.

I look forward to it.

It'll be fun. It's one of those views that makes both sides unhappy, so you know it's great! 

[Lokiwithrope]

Ecmoose wrote...

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Now, gate bashing would make sense if you had a really strong character, like Shale. After all, one of your dialogue options in Origins was to call Shale a portable battering-ram. Otherwise, you should have to bring a mage who's skilled in offensive magic. Or a good ol' fashioned sapper. If the darkspawn can make bombs, so can we.

Why is Shale any stronger than any other warrior on your group. Yes, she's a golem, so that gives her some inherent strength, but stat wise, Alistair, Sten, Dog, Oghren or anyone you dumbed strength stats into would have been on equal footing with her. All of your companions are exceptional individuals with attributes far exceeding the norm. Cassandra as a warrior focuses on strength and weakening armored enemies. Why shouldn't she be able to apply that same knowledge to an armored door?

It's a castle gate. I just think it would take several exceptionally strong people to break it.

[Allan Schumacher]

StanojeZ wrote...

The demo would have been so much more exciting if the Inquisitor had opened the door by sitting down to do the Towers of Hanoi, right?



Right?

I laughed!

[In Exile]

Ukki wrote...
It is still more believable than Hulk Cassandra smashing through the gate. In history there are people known to be deadly in the battlefield who killed a big bunch of enemies and lived to die old age. However, there has not been any person in history known to hulk smash through iron gates.

Killing "a bunch" of enemies is not the same as killing 2000+ in a few months without injury. This is just an Achilles level feat, and stories like that have been part of our collective myth for centuries.

If you accept Hulk smash then you wouldn´t mind to have the option to have your team jump over the fortifications, grab a rainbow and kill garrison in one swing wouldn´t you? Fantasy right?

Like DMC? I wouldn't object to that. You're really not going to convince me that realism is good. I prefer coherent unrealism, i.e., unrealistic and fantastic combat that follows a predetermined set of rules and applies in cutscenes and out. 

[Morroian]

Ukki wrote...

It is still more believable than Hulk Cassandra smashing through the gate. In history there are people known to be deadly in the battlefield who killed a big bunch of enemies and lived to die old age. However, there has not been any person in history known to hulk smash through iron gates.

If you accept Hulk smash then you wouldn´t mind to have the option to have your team jump over the fortifications, grab a rainbow and kill garrison in one swing wouldn´t you? Fantasy right?

Given that Alan has already said that the scene plays out differently in the actual game (unless I misinterpreted him) why is there even a debate at this point given that it was just a gosh wow moment to get a panel audience excited, not something to be analysed endlessly and picked apart on an internet forum.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I've always been for gameplay/story segregation.

Something that I think not just inhibits, but actively prevents, roleplaying.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I prefer coherent unrealism, i.e., unrealistic and fantastic combat that follows a predetermined set of rules and applies in cutscenes and out.

I completely agree.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Yay ban's lifted!

Anyway from what I've seen the gate smash looks really naff. Not only is it ridiculous for a regular human to possess that kind of power, she would need to hit it with something much, much bigger to cause it to shatter into pieces like that. It just looks.. structurally wrong, you know? It looks like what happens in Battlefield 3 when you apply SEVERAL C4 charges to a building.

Aside from "realism", and how ugly it looks, there's also a consistency issue since if she can do that there's not much stopping her is there? I don't think there can be any locked items or obstacles for her short of mountains. But maybe, just maybe, that was an extremely shoddy gate.

As for puzzles, while I enjoy them in of itself, they tend not too make much sense in these games haha. The DAO "arrange your companions" thing was rather silly.

but I'm confused, what do puzzles have to do with gate smashing? Unless you mean the now universal "lockpick minigame"s

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Ukki wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I just don't engage in that reasoning. Like the Warden killing 2000 people by the end of DA:O. Find 40 people like that, send them into the Deep Roads, and you've allowed Orzammar to re-create an empire. 

It is still more believable than Hulk Cassandra smashing through the gate. In history there are people known to be deadly in the battlefield who killed a big bunch of enemies and lived to die old age. However, there has not been any person in history known to hulk smash through iron gates.

If you accept Hulk smash then you wouldn´t mind to have the option to have your team jump over the fortifications, grab a rainbow and kill garrison in one swing wouldn´t you? Fantasy right?

It's not just the believability when you analyse it, it just isn't as visually jarring. Maybe she could just whack open a crack wide enough to squeeze through. But that may be too much work for bioware.

[The Qun & the Damned]

Puzzles are nice, but if their as patronizing as Skyrim's, then I wouldn't even bother.

[Dubozz]

I wish there will be some Secret World level investigation missions and puzzles. Can't even explain how brilliant these missions are. The first time i solved one... it was like I closed the case of the century or something. Great feeling. The other day I tried to solve another one, i had to reconstruct demonic alphabet with a pen and paper sitting behind my computer for a couple of hours and it it was only the beginning. It was extremely immersive, fun and challenging.

I wish Bioware will implement something like this in DAI. Those quest were optional, but they sure were great part of the game.

Modifié par Dubozz, 09 septembre 2013 - 09:23 .

[Rawgrim]

What is this "Towers of Hanoi" everyone keeps reffering to?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Rawgrim wrote...

What is this "Towers of Hanoi" everyone keeps reffering to?

Shhht! Don't mention it! Before you know it BW will add it to DA:I aswell, like they did to most of their games.

Towers Of Hanoi.

And here a quote from a random site on the net about that puzzle:

Though developed in the 19th century, the Tower of Hanoi puzzle has maintained a degree of popularity in computer science. Because of its simple rule set, the Tower of Hanoi is taught to illustrate the core concept of recursive functions, a fundamental part of computer science. Because of its ubiquity in computer programming, the Tower of Hanoi puzzle has popped up in a number of video games, including the Bioware titles Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, during the Naga Sadow's Tomb on Korriban, and in Mass Effect, on the planet Noveria. Bioware even pokes fun of their predilection for the puzzle in Dragon Age: Origins. In the town of Haven, the location of the Gauntlet (a series of puzzles similar to, but not including, the Tower of Hanoi) a tombstone can be found with the inscription "T.O. Hanoi. Unloved, unmourned."

Source: Towers Of Hanoi.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 septembre 2013 - 12:27 .

[Rawgrim]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

What is this "Towers of Hanoi" everyone keeps reffering to?

Shhht! Don't mention it! Before you know it BW will add it to DA:I aswell, like they did to most of their games.

Towers Of Hanoi.

And here a quote from a random site on the net about that puzzle:

Though developed in the 19th century, the Tower of Hanoi puzzle has maintained a degree of popularity in computer science. Because of its simple rule set, the Tower of Hanoi is taught to illustrate the core concept of recursive functions, a fundamental part of computer science. Because of its ubiquity in computer programming, the Tower of Hanoi puzzle has popped up in a number of video games, including the Bioware titles Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, during the Naga Sadow's Tomb on Korriban, and in Mass Effect, on the planet Noveria. Bioware even pokes fun of their predilection for the puzzle in Dragon Age: Origins. In the town of Haven, the location of the Gauntlet (a series of puzzles similar to, but not including, the Tower of Hanoi) a tombstone can be found with the inscription "T.O. Hanoi. Unloved, unmourned."

Source: Towers Of Hanoi.

Thanks. I thought it might be some quest in a game I didn`t know about

[Savber100]

There seems to be alternate choices based on classes when taking keeps:

CVG wrote...
There's greater variation outside of missions, too. Keeps are a bit like
Assassin's Creeds' outposts, and there are several ways in. Provided
your party contains a rogue, he can sneak past the gate and unlock it.
Or, if you've got a mage, she can blast it clean off the hinges instead
(it's slightly noisier).

Source
www.computerandvideogames.com/428051/previews/preview-dragon-age-inquisition-goes-after-skyrim/

[Uccio]

^ why would anyone need to use rogue or have mage to spend his mana if all you need is Cassandra and shield? That kind of drive-through just nullifies all other entry ways with it´s ridiculous simplicity.

Also, one more thing. Cassandra bashing items during the combat made me think of Mario. When that she Hulk broke some wood piles with with a gigantic blast I half expected a pile of shiny coins to pop up from the broken pile.

[Kaiser of Hearts]

Ukki wrote...

^ why would anyone need to use rogue or have mage to spend his mana if all you need is Cassandra and shield? That kind of drive-through just nullifies all other entry ways with it´s ridiculous simplicity.

Also, one more thing. Cassandra bashing items during the combat made me think of Mario. When that she Hulk broke some wood piles with with a gigantic blast I half expected a pile of shiny coins to pop up from the broken pile.

They said that smashing the gate open makes enemies aware of you while the alternative of Varric sneaking in would have been more time consuming but quieter. 

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

What is this "Towers of Hanoi" everyone keeps reffering to?

Shhht! Don't mention it! Before you know it BW will add it to DA:I aswell, like they did to most of their games.

Towers Of Hanoi.

And here a quote from a random site on the net about that puzzle:

Though developed in the 19th century, the Tower of Hanoi puzzle has maintained a degree of popularity in computer science. Because of its simple rule set, the Tower of Hanoi is taught to illustrate the core concept of recursive functions, a fundamental part of computer science. Because of its ubiquity in computer programming, the Tower of Hanoi puzzle has popped up in a number of video games, including the Bioware titles Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, during the Naga Sadow's Tomb on Korriban, and in Mass Effect, on the planet Noveria. Bioware even pokes fun of their predilection for the puzzle in Dragon Age: Origins. In the town of Haven, the location of the Gauntlet (a series of puzzles similar to, but not including, the Tower of Hanoi) a tombstone can be found with the inscription "T.O. Hanoi. Unloved, unmourned."

Source: Towers Of Hanoi.

I don't understand why everyone has a problem with this puzzle.  Maybe I just don't understand the reason behind the dislike, but it is not really that difficult of a puzzle to do.  Quite simple actually.

[Beerfish]

I always have to remember to save up my 10,000 credits or whatever it is to by pass hanoi on novaria