270 réponses à ce sujet

[Teddie Sage]

Leave out puzzles of my RPGs, please... If I wanted to play puzzle games, I'd purchase puzzle games instead...

[Ianamus]

Bashing the gate open makes a lot more sense than completing the towers of hanoi or a jump-frog minigame to force the gate of a medieval fortress open.

[Rawgrim]

EJ107 wrote...

Bashing the gate open makes a lot more sense than completing the towers of hanoi or a jump-frog minigame to force the gate of a medieval fortress open.

Not when you bash a steel gate uising two swift jabs of a shield.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Pretty much sums it up.

[Rawgrim]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...



Pretty much sums it up.

Or "No consitancy or Lore to be followed".

[ArtemisMoons]

Ok, for those who hate the idea of gatesmashing, what kind of puzzle would you like to open a gate? I mean, it's not exactly like you can lockpick it (or is that ok versus smashing a gate)?
I saw someone mention throwing a fireball or shooting an arrow through the gate, but is the ridiculous level of accuracy that would take better?
I'm curious as to what better way people think they have.

[Rawgrim]

ArtemisMoons wrote...

Ok, for those who hate the idea of gatesmashing, what kind of puzzle would you like to open a gate? I mean, it's not exactly like you can lockpick it (or is that ok versus smashing a gate)?
I saw someone mention throwing a fireball or shooting an arrow through the gate, but is the ridiculous level of accuracy that would take better?
I'm curious as to what better way people think they have.

There are other optons in the game. You can sneak into the castle somehow an hngs like that. So the gate bashing is by no means game breaking.

How about being able to bluff yourself inside? Abt like how your companions can`t get inside the prison and free the warden in DA:O.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
I accept hitpoints as an abstraction.  I don't see what bashing down a door is an abstraction of, I can't see how to take it any way but literally.

You accept people being set on fire as an abstract of ... what, exactly? Because that's what I'm talking about. 

I can  - barely - accept HP as an abstraction when it comes to swords. But when you get into arrows, fire, dragons munching on your spine, etc, it gets hard to really buy into it as being an abstraction. 

edit:  Perhaps part of the issue is that I really don't see this as a matter of gameplay, even if it's not in a cutscene.  How you gain access to a fortress is story to me.  Maybe that's not really fair, but that's how it seems to me. 

I think it get it more now. I happen to dislike realism in games as a general thing, so it's hard to relate past a point, but generally speaking if I have control over it I tend to consider it "gameplay". 

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Rawgrim wrote...

Or "No consitancy or Lore to be followed".

If you want to fall on your sword over lore inconsistency, be my guest. That could even be a worthwhile endeavour. After all, without the lore, the whole thing falls apart, right?

But this? Come on, man. It's petty. You're complaining about an optional tactic in a video game about dragons and monsters and knights and wizards. I'm not one to normally call the "but it's a video game, bro" card, but at the end of the day there will always be discrepencies between lore and gameplay. It's the nature of the beast in this medium. Developers need to choose between yielding to the lore, or making something fun for players. In some cases, lore wins, in others, fun wins. Busting down a gate and invading a keep sounds like a fun decision. If you're looking for total tactical realism, I don't think you'll ever be satisfied with something like Dragon Age. Total War is pretty good, though. Check that out.

My point is, you can learn to either roll with it or grow ever flustered by it. My suggestion is to go with the flow and save your vigor. There are always more worthwhile hills to make your stand on.

[In Exile]

Vaeliorin wrote...
For me personally, it's just a matter of it going beyond my personal willing suspension of disbelief.  It makes me wonder why anyone would even bother with a gate if someone can smash it down that easily.

I just don't engage in that reasoning. Like the Warden killing 2000 people by the end of DA:O. Find 40 people like that, send them into the Deep Roads, and you've allowed Orzammar to re-create an empire. 

Or something like storm of the century. If you had two mages on a bridge casting that spell, it would render the very idea of having an army at Ostagar redundant.

Anyway, thanks for sharing Vael! I'm looking forward to hearing more about level scaling... then we can open up a thread about it and have a debate with Sylvius like the good ol' days. Though I've got a more nuanced view that I wonder if you'd agree with. 

[ArtemisMoons]

Rawgrim wrote...

ArtemisMoons wrote...

Ok, for those who hate the idea of gatesmashing, what kind of puzzle would you like to open a gate? I mean, it's not exactly like you can lockpick it (or is that ok versus smashing a gate)?
I saw someone mention throwing a fireball or shooting an arrow through the gate, but is the ridiculous level of accuracy that would take better?
I'm curious as to what better way people think they have.

There are other optons in the game. You can sneak into the castle somehow an hngs like that. So the gate bashing is by no means game breaking.

How about being able to bluff yourself inside? Abt like how your companions can`t get inside the prison and free the warden in DA:O.

I'm aware. lol. I've posted before that there were other ways to the ones who didn't like it. xD

However, bluffing (or any use of persuade) wouldn't be a puzzle. It could be likely that it would be included, but not the point. lol

[Rawgrim]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Or "No consitancy or Lore to be followed".

If you want to fall on your sword over lore inconsistency, be my guest. That could even be a worthwhile endeavour. After all, without the lore, the whole thing falls apart, right?

But this? Come on, man. It's petty. You're complaining about an optional tactic in a video game about dragons and monsters and knights and wizards. I'm not one to normally call the "but it's a video game, bro" card, but at the end of the day there will always be discrepencies between lore and gameplay. It's the nature of the beast in this medium. Developers need to choose between yielding to the lore, or making something fun for players. In some cases, lore wins, in others, fun wins. Busting down a gate and invading a keep sounds like a fun decision. If you're looking for total tactical realism, I don't think you'll ever be satisfied with something like Dragon Age. Total War is pretty good, though. Check that out.

My point is, you can learn to either roll with it or grow ever flustered by it. My suggestion is to go with the flow and save your vigor. There are always more worthwhile hills to make your stand on.

Don`t worry. I do know ther are other options to get into the castle and whatsnot. And this bit, as I said, is not gamebreaking at all. There will never be complete realism in any rpg. Simple as that. Mostly I have been discussing the puzzle thing in the heading of this thread, though.

[Allan Schumacher]

Second. How is it not an acceptable solution to introduce a puzzle instead of gate smashing?

Third. I don't care about your logistics of creating a demo or your time slots, and I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion. What I am suggesting is having a puzzle to get through the castle gates, instead of just hammering away at it, like we were playing a God of War game.

Your inability to see how it's relevant to the discussion is on you.  You were wondering why we didn't show a puzzle instead, and I explained why.


We made a demo, for a fixed time slot, and wanted to show some things.  You may imagine that solving that sequence with a puzzle would have been superior for the 30-40 minutes of time slot we had, but given that a good puzzle can take pretty much that long to solve, is why we don't show something like a puzzle for that.

No, I for one second do not believe that you would have been okay with whatever trivial puzzle we would have had to put instead.  It would have been excessively easy, and peopel would have just chosen to slag on that instead of this, in their usual mocking way about how we're dumbing stuff down and so forth.


What you think would be appropriate and what actually works well for revealing some gameplay are not in alignment.  Yes, we tried.  Sorry you didn't like it, but when pretty much everyone goes "that doesn't show very well for a short demo" it's likely not going to be shown.



It's like some people that were very much "all I want is player races."  Now there are rumors such as "Wait I can only play a player race if it comes with a particular background? That's not what I want!"  Well yeah, I kinda knew that, but that person just kept telling me repeatedly that the only thing that mattered was having the choice.  No, they wanted the choice, and all the unspoken things that go along with it.

You want a puzzle.... but I am skeptical that you want a simple puzzle (which may or may not even make sense, given the context of breaking into a keep) and would have been perfectly okay with it.  It's easy to say that now, however, since you didn't get a puzzle and there's no way to actually validate whether or not your perspective would actually have been true.


EDIT: Rescinded my lock.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 09 septembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[Rawgrim]

ArtemisMoons wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

ArtemisMoons wrote...

Ok, for those who hate the idea of gatesmashing, what kind of puzzle would you like to open a gate? I mean, it's not exactly like you can lockpick it (or is that ok versus smashing a gate)?
I saw someone mention throwing a fireball or shooting an arrow through the gate, but is the ridiculous level of accuracy that would take better?
I'm curious as to what better way people think they have.

There are other optons in the game. You can sneak into the castle somehow an hngs like that. So the gate bashing is by no means game breaking.

How about being able to bluff yourself inside? Abt like how your companions can`t get inside the prison and free the warden in DA:O.

I'm aware. lol. I've posted before that there were other ways to the ones who didn't like it. xD

However, bluffing (or any use of persuade) wouldn't be a puzzle. It could be likely that it would be included, but not the point. lol

Yeah, I can`t really see how a puzzle would make sense when getting into a castle either. Unlocking the door of a tomb or an old thaig, sure. For a manned castle its pretty much hammer it in, sneak in, or bluff. Intimidate might work, I suppose.

[Allan Schumacher]

lol, missing the point. Poor Allan was simply pointing out that there will be alternatives to just knocking down the gate and there may well be puzzles in the game. However, don't expect them to demonstrate puzzles in a demo because 1) lack of time 2) it would ruin the any good puzzle of they showed if off.

Thank you!

[AresKeith]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

lol, missing the point. Poor Allan was simply pointing out that there will be alternatives to just knocking down the gate and there may well be puzzles in the game. However, don't expect them to demonstrate puzzles in a demo because 1) lack of time 2) it would ruin the any good puzzle of they showed if off.

Thank you!

Didn't they state this at the demo too by saying there were other ways than just knocking the gate down?

[ArtemisMoons]

AresKeith wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

lol, missing the point. Poor Allan was simply pointing out that there will be alternatives to just knocking down the gate and there may well be puzzles in the game. However, don't expect them to demonstrate puzzles in a demo because 1) lack of time 2) it would ruin the any good puzzle of they showed if off.

Thank you!

Didn't they state this at the demo too by saying there were other ways than just knocking the gate down?

Yes. There are possibly tunnels to sneak into or walls to climb over. lol

[Maria Caliban]

For years, people have complained that the needed rogues to unlock doors. 'Why can't fighters bash them down?' they'd ask. Bioware gives us the ability to use fighters to bash down doors and gates, and people now complain they can do it.

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

For years, people have complained that the needed rogues to unlock doors. 'Why can't fighters bash them down?' they'd ask. Bioware gives us the ability to use fighters to bash down doors and gates, and people now complain they can do it.

It's different people? 

[crimzontearz]

some food for thought for those who dismiss the difficulty and risks of making demos

[Allan Schumacher]

Filament wrote...

I just felt a little disappointed that the concept in the trailer of busting into a fort with an actual battering ram appears to have been reduced to using a "battering ram" ie Cassandra.

At the risk of spoiler...


That scene is different.

[ArtemisMoons]

Rawgrim wrote...
Yeah, I can`t really see how a puzzle would make sense when getting into a castle either. Unlocking the door of a tomb or an old thaig, sure. For a manned castle its pretty much hammer it in, sneak in, or bluff. Intimidate might work, I suppose.

I'm just not sure what people are wanting as a puzzle option. I figure if the problem is simply with gate smashing, they can choose one of the multiple other ways to infiltrate the keep? 
I guess I'm just the type to wait and see more information before I start saying too much positive or negative. 

[ArtemisMoons]

Maria Caliban wrote...

For years, people have complained that the needed rogues to unlock doors. 'Why can't fighters bash them down?' they'd ask. Bioware gives us the ability to use fighters to bash down doors and gates, and people now complain they can do it.

The thing to note is that there are people that will always be unhappy. xD

[Valdrane78]

Maria Caliban wrote...

For years, people have complained that the needed rogues to unlock doors. 'Why can't fighters bash them down?' they'd ask. Bioware gives us the ability to use fighters to bash down doors and gates, and people now complain they can do it.

Thoase are the people who are not happy unless everything goes their way.  I call them douchebags.