518 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

I'll throw my 2 cents at the end here to the OP:

Indeed I thought the destruction of EDI and the Geth was not handled well. Honestly for such a heady act, I would have expected a scene with the anit-AI folks cheering at their destruction, and the non-anti-AI (I guess?) folks having a memorial at their sacrifice. Really, it was a missed opportunity for a comment on people of the Mass Effect universe.

[jakomocha]

Wow, I leave this post for a day and come back to see thirteen pages of posts . There are lots of interesting debates going on here.

First off, I'm gonna say that some of your guys views sadden me. EDI is not an AI. Her intelligence is not artificial, at least not if you are using artificial as a synonym for fake. She is fully self-aware and has the ability to learn and grow. I'm just wondering: to all of you EDI haters did you go through all (if any) of the conversations with her on the Normandy? She can be really philosophical at times and also asks you some very human questions. And if you play the Citadel DLC that is even moreso. If you ignore her overtly-sexualized appearance away you can find a truly amazing character (same goes for Miranda in some ways.)

Sure, she may not be alive in a physical way, as she cannot die in a typical sense, nor does she have genes nor the ability to give birth. Yet at the same time she is "mentally" alive and while that may be against her created purpose, you can't take that away from someone. Have you guys seen the Kara video by the Heavy Rain creator? That is a perfect example of what I'm saying right now.

As for geth, they have always confused me. I am part of the Tali fanbase I guess, however I've always liked the geth. The one thing that confused me was that some acted like they were sentient and others acted like they were not. Either way, when Legion dies he starts referring to himself as "I", showing he has become aware of himself. I thought most people liked the geth based upon older forum posts and youtube comments but I guess I was incorrect.

Modifié par jakomocha, 10 septembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[naes1984]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm still wondering why it even matters whether she's alive or not. This all assumes we're supposed to have an unquestioning respect for "life".

I don't. Even if I wanted to say I did, and wanted to aspire to that, I'd be full of ****. I literally kill and eat living creatures for my own selfish pleasure. I kill bugs on sight simply for invading my space. AI would just be one other notch on the belt of things I'd be willing to kill to be comfortable. To me, being this way is just another part of "life". This whole premise about respecting AIs because you must respect life would only apply to a very small subset of people - most of whom are Zen and Jainest monks, and the occassional suburban college kid who lives off brussel sprout sandwiches.

And those folks still murder millions of helpless bacteria evertime they wash their hands. Won't somebody please think of the ecoli? Such respect eventually breaks down for everybody. 

[Br3admax]

jakomocha wrote...
First off, I'm gonna say that some of your guys views sadden me. EDI is not an AI. Her intelligence is not artificial, at least not if you are using artificial as a synonym for fake. She is fully self-aware and has the ability to learn and grow. I'm just wondering: to all of you EDI haters did you go through all (if any) of the conversations with her on the Normandy? She can be really philosophical at times and also asks you some very human questions. And if you play the Citadel DLC that is even moreso. If you ignore her overtly-sexualized appearance away you can find a truly amazing character (same goes for Miranda in some ways.)

That is the very definition of an AI. She is a machine that mimics life.

 
Sure, she may not be alive in a physical way, as she cannot die in a typical sense, nor does she have genes nor the ability to give birth. Yet at the same time she is "mentally" alive and while that may be against her created purpose, you can't take that away from someone. Have you guys seen the Kara video by the Heavy Rain creator? That is a perfect example of what I'm saying right now.

Not it isn't. And we can definitely take away. All you you just said is that, "Well she says that she can think so she's just like you and me." She isn't. We are human, and EDI is not. She never will be. She is a tool, and like any tool, she only serves her purspose. I don't care about something thinking, and I certainly won't use that as the basis in my decisions. It will always be humanity first when I decide things, because I care about my own people more, not just "We can think. We're just like you." 

Modifié par Br3ad, 10 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[Iakus]

In which case there is nothing separating her from a VI, so the whole synthetics vs organics debate is moot.

[KaiserShep]

Reaper nannies? No dice.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Ones and zeroes, baby--ones and zeros.

[eye basher]

Even if that crappy AI told me that destroy would kill everything in the galaxy i'd still choose it the reapers need to die.

[jakomocha]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm still wondering why it even matters whether she's alive or not. This all assumes we're supposed to have an unquestioning respect for "life".

I don't. Even if I wanted to say I did, and wanted to aspire to that, I'd be full of ****. I literally kill and eat living creatures for my own selfish pleasure. I kill bugs on sight simply for invading my space. AI would just be one other notch on the belt of things I'd be willing to kill to be comfortable. To me, being this way is just another part of "life". This whole premise about respecting AIs because you must respect life would only apply to a very small subset of people - most of whom are Zen and Jainest monks, and the occassional suburban college kid who lives off brussel sprout sandwiches.

Yes, but the difference between bugs and EDI is that one is self-aware and the other isn't. A bug or most animals don't know anything outside of themselves and all of their motives are boiled down to survival, and that is it. They feel no emotion, can't learn anything, nor can they show any respect for others.

Br3ad wrote...
Not it isn't. And we can definitely take away. All you you just said is that, "Well she says that she can think so she's just like you and me." She isn't. We are human, and EDI is not. She never will be. She is a tool, and like any tool, she only serves her purspose. I don't care about something thinking, and I certainly won't use that as the basis in my decisions. It will always be humanity first when I decide things, because I care about my own people more, not just "We can think. We're just like you." 

By "can't" I meant it wasn't right to, not that we are unable to.
As well as that I'm guessing in your playhtrough you didn't stand up for any of the other alien species since for you as humanity comes first. Also, EDI isn't an AI. She has actual intelligence, with actual feelings. She isn't mimmicking life based on code because if that was true she wouldn't be able to hold real conversations. She'd run into dead ends all the time and repeat the same lines over and over. Of course in reality technology like this may not ever be possible but Mass Effect is a work of fiction. Turians, Quarians, Batarians, etc. aren't real either. 


I know this is a really stupid hypothetical question, but if one day your shovel started talking and asked you kindly to not use him/her as a shovel, would you really continue to do so even if they started crying in pain? And then would you throw them away/return them? 


Also, a lot of people are thinking I made this article to be anti-destroy. That's incorrect. I'm for destroy, I was just wanted to know all of your feelings on Edi's death in the destroy ending. Anyways, this is an interesting discussion/debate. I hope none of you guys think I'm trying to start a huge argument or anything.

[Br3admax]

jakomocha wrote...

I know this is a really stupid hypothetical question, but if one day your shovel started talking and asked you kindly to not use him/her as a shovel, would you really continue to do so even if they started crying in pain? And then would you throw them away/return them? 

No, I would seek psychiatric help. 

[jakomocha]

Br3ad wrote...

No, I would seek psychiatric help. 

Yeah, I know, it was a pretty stupid hypothetical question .

[KaiserShep]

If my shovel started talking and begged me not to use it, I'd be sure to give it to a man that deals manure.

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

If my shovel started talking and begged me not to use it, I'd be sure to give it to a man that deals manure.

If your shovel started talking to you, you either discovered a new form of life, or you need to lay off the drugs 

[wolfhowwl]

Necanor wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Necanor wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Yeah. Making her a naked fem-bot for fan service was a disservice to the character. Wait, what are we talking about?

Was it really fan service? I don't think any fan ever suggested something this far fetched, out of character and generally ridiculous.

Nobody wanted a naked EDI. Nobody wanted an EDI with a body at all. No one with a good reason, anyway. 

Exactly. Whoever had this idea needs to get a girlfriend.

After seeing EDI and Joker interact, Javik recommends that Joker receive a mental examination.

I agree and would extend that recommendation to whoever thought that abomination was a good idea to put in the game.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 10 septembre 2013 - 04:50 .

[jakomocha]

StreetMagic wrote...

I wouldn't know if it's "most" animals. I haven't been in all of their heads - or any of their heads for that matter. Just like I can't experience things as an AI would. There are animals that think beyond survival though. Our most basic/reptillian brain is concerned with survival and territorialism, but that's just what it is... basic. The story of the brain's evolution is how much is built upon those basics. After a certain point, they have higher functions that can override those base impulses. It's just easy to rely on them - even many humans end up relying on them more than they should. Even I do. But that doesn't mean that's all they're capable of.

It is most animals. Look up the mirror test (it is a test to see how self-aware an animal is).  Only a few types of apes and 4-5 other animals are self-aware. 

And yes, I am aware that a lot of the things we do boil down to survival. If you look at things scientifically, some people think the only reason we make friends is because it makes us feel more powerful, or more in control of things (and this may very well be true). However, our minds are much more capable than that. EDI is self-aware and she knows who she is and starts having aspirations, wishes, friends, and goals. The geth eventually grow to that as well, however in a different way.

[Xplode441]

EDI was annoying in ME3, should have kept her as a hologram who didn't want to bang Joker.

[Kataphrut94]

Br3ad wrote...

I know what you said, no read what I said. We don't need neutralized Reapers, we need dead Reapers, and we don't need the Reapers to rebuild anything for us. If anything, that is reinforcing their point that we can't think for ourselves and decide our own futures. And Joker...Joker needs help. Emotional attachment to a piece of metal is not healthy. 

Why do we need dead Reapers, exactly? What, apart from meaningless principle, makes Reapers who are alive and capable of helping us less necessary than Reapers who are dead and useless? So long as they're not killing us, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that by not picking Destroy, we save one good race, one good ally and render our enemy non-hostile.

[shodiswe]

jakomocha wrote...

Wow, I leave this post for a day and come back to see thirteen pages of posts . There are lots of interesting debates going on here.

First off, I'm gonna say that some of your guys views sadden me. EDI is not an AI. Her intelligence is not artificial, at least not if you are using artificial as a synonym for fake. She is fully self-aware and has the ability to learn and grow. I'm just wondering: to all of you EDI haters did you go through all (if any) of the conversations with her on the Normandy? She can be really philosophical at times and also asks you some very human questions. And if you play the Citadel DLC that is even moreso. If you ignore her overtly-sexualized appearance away you can find a truly amazing character (same goes for Miranda in some ways.)

Sure, she may not be alive in a physical way, as she cannot die in a typical sense, nor does she have genes nor the ability to give birth. Yet at the same time she is "mentally" alive and while that may be against her created purpose, you can't take that away from someone. Have you guys seen the Kara video by the Heavy Rain creator? That is a perfect example of what I'm saying right now.

As for geth, they have always confused me. I am part of the Tali fanbase I guess, however I've always liked the geth. The one thing that confused me was that some acted like they were sentient and others acted like they were not. Either way, when Legion dies he starts referring to himself as "I", showing he has become aware of himself. I thought most people liked the geth based upon older forum posts and youtube comments but I guess I was incorrect.

In fact, according to Biowares statistics most people saved the Geth from the Quarians, letting the Quarians get decimated in their spiteful, hateful war.
Then there was the group that made peace.

The least amount of people killed the Geth and saved the Quarians helping them complete their hostile takeover and genocide.

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 septembre 2013 - 09:10 .

[shodiswe]

jakomocha wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm still wondering why it even matters whether she's alive or not. This all assumes we're supposed to have an unquestioning respect for "life".

I don't. Even if I wanted to say I did, and wanted to aspire to that, I'd be full of ****. I literally kill and eat living creatures for my own selfish pleasure. I kill bugs on sight simply for invading my space. AI would just be one other notch on the belt of things I'd be willing to kill to be comfortable. To me, being this way is just another part of "life". This whole premise about respecting AIs because you must respect life would only apply to a very small subset of people - most of whom are Zen and Jainest monks, and the occassional suburban college kid who lives off brussel sprout sandwiches.

Yes, but the difference between bugs and EDI is that one is self-aware and the other isn't. A bug or most animals don't know anything outside of themselves and all of their motives are boiled down to survival, and that is it. They feel no emotion, can't learn anything, nor can they show any respect for others.

Br3ad wrote...
Not it isn't. And we can definitely take away. All you you just said is that, "Well she says that she can think so she's just like you and me." She isn't. We are human, and EDI is not. She never will be. She is a tool, and like any tool, she only serves her purspose. I don't care about something thinking, and I certainly won't use that as the basis in my decisions. It will always be humanity first when I decide things, because I care about my own people more, not just "We can think. We're just like you." 

By "can't" I meant it wasn't right to, not that we are unable to.
As well as that I'm guessing in your playhtrough you didn't stand up for any of the other alien species since for you as humanity comes first. Also, EDI isn't an AI. She has actual intelligence, with actual feelings. She isn't mimmicking life based on code because if that was true she wouldn't be able to hold real conversations. She'd run into dead ends all the time and repeat the same lines over and over. Of course in reality technology like this may not ever be possible but Mass Effect is a work of fiction. Turians, Quarians, Batarians, etc. aren't real either. 


I know this is a really stupid hypothetical question, but if one day your shovel started talking and asked you kindly to not use him/her as a shovel, would you really continue to do so even if they started crying in pain? And then would you throw them away/return them? 


Also, a lot of people are thinking I made this article to be anti-destroy. That's incorrect. I'm for destroy, I was just wanted to know all of your feelings on Edi's death in the destroy ending. Anyways, this is an interesting discussion/debate. I hope none of you guys think I'm trying to start a huge argument or anything.

Animals can learn and they can feel empaty.
My parrot can learn, not just words and how to speak but other things, like turning on the TV, music, other things.
She has a lot of empaty, when a small bird crashed into out window she got really concerned and wanted me to go out and help it. If that isn't concern or empaty for others then I don't know.

But it's part of being human to think you are more special or better than anything else. But yeah, I got a few smaller parrots, love birds they are called. They seem far less empatic when it commes to others.
I guess it differs from species to species.

But on the other hand humans arn't always empathic or nice people, some are even psychopaths and fairly extreme when there is no need for it or gain.

If we were to create life then there is no telling what it will behave like, it's an unknown and unpredictable.
The problem isn't that they are guaranteed to be bad, but that it's an unknowable and that the risk of it being bad or going bad is big. Also, I don't know if it would be worth it to create a true inteligence. Why create something that isn't "us" or an extension to us.

There are a lot of people talking about the Iphones and stuff like that, but it isn't anywhere near being alive, it's not even anywhere close to the Mass Effect VI's.
This might also be a problem like someone said earlier, that people go no personal realworld refence.

It's something for the future. Or maybe Synthesis will happen, just not in the way it was portrayed in ME3..

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 septembre 2013 - 09:25 .

[NeonFlux117]

Nah, I don't feel bad for things made with/out of Reaper Tech. i.e TIM, Cerberus Shock troops, The Catalyst, Harbinger, The Collectors. Pullin' the ole' proverbial plug on EDI wasn't a difficult decision. Far less than killing the Geth, but Legion was already dead, so really my only connection with them was just allegiance and if one race has to 'die' to rid the galaxy of monstrous, genocidal killing machines. Then that's a price I'll pay. Gladly.

[Br3admax]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I know what you said, no read what I said. We don't need neutralized Reapers, we need dead Reapers, and we don't need the Reapers to rebuild anything for us. If anything, that is reinforcing their point that we can't think for ourselves and decide our own futures. And Joker...Joker needs help. Emotional attachment to a piece of metal is not healthy. 

Why do we need dead Reapers, exactly? What, apart from meaningless principle, makes Reapers who are alive and capable of helping us less necessary than Reapers who are dead and useless? So long as they're not killing us, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that by not picking Destroy, we save one good race, one good ally and render our enemy non-hostile.

You assume because in the next few moths that the REapers are nonhostile. You assusme that the race that was just making you kill cyborg zombies of your best friend/brother/mother/lover are now your friends all of a sudden. you assume that we should take the help of the beings that have been planning our extermination since we stopped crawling in the dirt. And you assume that the geth are good.

All of those are the most far fetched assumptions that I have seeen in awhile.

The geth became allies out of necessity. Every race will soon go back to every man for himself. They are not your best friends. In fact, a few minutes ago before upgrading them, they weere shooting at your best friends. Though I suppose if you think the Reapers can suddenly become your friends, why not their lapdogs too? 

Second, we don't need the Reapers help. Their "help" is what lead the enitre galaxy being burned down, starting on Eden Prime. If anyone, even for a second, believes that we should suddenly ask the robots that have been killing us for the past three years simply because they see a blue or green light, I would ask them to examine their frontal lobe. It's simple idiociy. 

Dead Reapers are my favorite kind of Reaper. They can no longer give the "help", that they so disire to give. The mission from Day One is accomplished. There is no chance that they can turn back on their word, and the species that were genetically raped into squids can be at peace. I don't need robots made out of corpses, I'm doing just fine on my own, and the dead deserve justice.



But no, we should go on living in that dillusional world where we suddenly gain the ability to trust the things that are exterminating us because a giant bulp lit up. That makes perfect sense, and they are suddenly trustworthy because of it. 

[Kataphrut94]

Not only is your view on this matter pathetically cynical, you are ignoring actual in-game evidence in favor of what you want to think. Re-watch the Control epilogue speech, the geth prime speech on Rannoch and the London FOB and any of EDIs own conversations (if you can tear yourself away from "I would render myself nonfunctional", the only thing about her that haters like because yay, guilt-free assurances) and you will see that none of these synthetics are secretly trying to steal our jobs and take our brittle-boned women.

The fact of the matter is, 'turning on the giant light bulb' does get them to stop exterminating us. And I believe it, because we've all met their leader and we know he's not all there. The fact of the matter is that the Reapers amoral- not evil, not immoral, amoral. Respect for the dead, vengeance, justice, etc. are all meaningless terms when applied to them. What they do is horrific to us, and the desire to pay unto them is perfectly understandable. But, when you would knowingly sacrifice innocents to destroy them when you are quite capable of accomplishing the mission without doing so, how does that make you any better?