180 réponses à ce sujet

[Ecmoose]

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Ya, this is getting off topic...

there was a topic? 

Yeah. "Cater to me instead of evil white cis males because oppression"

Because it would so terrible to cater to someone other than the white male population for once, right?


@Thief there's no need to keep yelling at N7_killswitch, especially when he's making every effort to understand what's got everyone so riled up.

[AppealToReason]

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Ya, this is getting off topic...

there was a topic? 

Yeah. "Cater to me instead of evil white cis males because oppression"

But I don't care about the generic dude! Why does that make me evil:crying:

[Ecmoose]

Cigne wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Representation in marketing is important. Representation is important, period. Generic White Males have had more than their fair share of representation over the years. It is time for a change.

I certainly agree that we need more equal representation, particularly in gaming... but why is the solution to simply pick another group to cater to as the marketing iconic?

The marketing should be inclusive, but that means showing that a protagonist could literally be anyone - skin colour, gender, fantasy race, whatever.  

In another, similar thread, it was suggested that Bioware do a cover like KotOR.

If they showcase the various companions to the Inquisitor on the cover instead of the pc, it would highlight one of Bioware's strength's and also be somewhat inclusive.

I'd be down for that. Even leaving the inquisitor as some sort of hooded blur with badass armor and weaponry could alleviate a lot of the issues that people feel come with defining a default protagonist.

[werewoof]

[killswitch423]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...
I see examples of racist or homophobic or sexist idiots being idiots, which really sucks.

However, can't you even begin to understand how calling me priviliged might be even a tad offensive, or how that last line was a bit needlessly antagonistic towards me, who is not even your enemy?


Edit:  On hair touching, it's not just "ethnic" hair that deals with that.  My spikes get touched randomly all the time by total strangers, and it sucks, and is kind of creepy, but it's not just a racial thing in my humble opinion.  It's just... people having a fascination with anything different than what they're used to kind of thing.  Just like ethnicity fetishes (is it wrong to be attracted to certain skin tones or facial structures?  Legitimate question here, never thought to ask it before.)

 
Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
You are doing it wrong. the LEARNING part. The one you asked for.
Here are people trying to teach you why people are upset and taking the time to educate you. Instead of listening, you are making the issue (marginalized people) and making it about you, and how you aren't possibly part of "the bad group".

This is not about you. This is not about your exeperiences, and definately not about your feelings of being offended.

That above statement is not about going out of my way to make you feel bad or guilty, it is about making you examine what the problem is and how you may or may not be contributing to it. Let it stew for a bit before posting.

Black people have really, really awesome hair. Often naturally, but sometimes aided with chemical relaxers and/or the addition of something called a weave. It is a beautiful thing but it is not ment to be touched by anyone other than the person who the hair is attached to. Many nonblack people do so anyway without any regard for the owner's personal space. It is a huge problem. Tumblr alone can provide with hundreds of examples, and i'm sure google could provide thousands.

and i'm done educating for the night. if you are actually serious about learning, you should take the initiative to find out the answers to your own questions instead of using a handful of poc as a walking dictionary. 

on a closing note, as part of the most privileged group, you do not get to make choices on what is or is not racist, what is or is not offensive. Only someone belonging to that particular marginalized group gets to say what is or is not offensive to them. if you don't live it and deal with the consequences, you don't get to call the shots. and yes, fetishes are very bad. 

editted for my wonky quoting

So... your point is that I should stop trying to relate?  Is that really your problem with me?  Because what I was doing with the hair thing was empathizing - or so I thought.  Is that somehow not allowed?  I said it sucks and is creepy.  What more do you want?

Also where did I try and claim anything was or wasn't racist?  Because that was never my intention. 

And I fail to see why having a 'type' is bad.  Is it bad that I have a thing for redheaded women?  Or is it only bad if I were to happen to have a thing for women with dark skin?  

[Thiefy]

Ecmoose wrote...

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Ya, this is getting off topic...

there was a topic? 

Yeah. "Cater to me instead of evil white cis males because oppression"

Because it would so terrible to cater to someone other than the white male population for once, right?


@Thief there's no need to keep yelling at N7_killswitch, especially when he's making every effort to understand what's got everyone so riled up.

 
Except that I wasn't yelling.   If not spoon feeding and hold hands with someone now equates to yelling then it's pretty clear that people (not even referring to N7) don't want or care to solve the real issue, just make it a punch line for crappy jokes because they don't get enough positive social interactions in real life.

[fiveforchaos]

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

Yep, I'm on Tumblr.

The fact that you've dealt with adversity in your life doesn't not mean
you understand systematic oppression/erasure/unrepresentation/etc.

Yeah ****lord, you need a degree in Wimmin's Studies to truly understand the literal oppression strong WOC have to go through on a daily basis.

Nah, if you were on Tumblr you'd be reading this rather amusing fan comic I found in the DA:I tag rather than watching the same debate rehash itself for the fifth time this week.

http://momochanners....s-if-cole-was-a

[Hi my name is Ryan]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
You are doing it wrong. the LEARNING part. The one you asked for.
Here are people trying to teach you why people are upset and taking the time to educate you. Instead of listening, you are making the issue (marginalized people) and making it about you, and how you aren't possibly part of "the bad group".

This is not about you. This is not about your exeperiences, and definately not about your feelings of being offended.

That above statement is not about going out of my way to make you feel bad or guilty, it is about making you examine what the problem is and how you may or may not be contributing to it. Let it stew for a bit before posting.

Black people have really, really awesome hair. Often naturally, but sometimes aided with chemical relaxers and/or the addition of something called a weave. It is a beautiful thing but it is not ment to be touched by anyone other than the person who the hair is attached to. Many nonblack people do so anyway without any regard for the owner's personal space. It is a huge problem. Tumblr alone can provide with hundreds of examples, and i'm sure google could provide thousands.

and i'm done educating for the night. if you are actually serious about learning, you should take the initiative to find out the answers to your own questions instead of using a handful of poc as a walking dictionary. 

on a closing note, as part of the most privileged group, you do not get to make choices on what is or is not racist, what is or is not offensive. Only someone belonging to that particular marginalized group gets to say what is or is not offensive to them. if you don't live it and deal with the consequences, you don't get to call the shots. and yes, fetishes are very bad. 

I would say that your "black people have awesome hair" generalization is racist but my white male privilege prevents me from doing so.

[AppealToReason]

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
You are doing it wrong. the LEARNING part. The one you asked for.
Here are people trying to teach you why people are upset and taking the time to educate you. Instead of listening, you are making the issue (marginalized people) and making it about you, and how you aren't possibly part of "the bad group".

This is not about you. This is not about your exeperiences, and definately not about your feelings of being offended.

That above statement is not about going out of my way to make you feel bad or guilty, it is about making you examine what the problem is and how you may or may not be contributing to it. Let it stew for a bit before posting.

Black people have really, really awesome hair. Often naturally, but sometimes aided with chemical relaxers and/or the addition of something called a weave. It is a beautiful thing but it is not ment to be touched by anyone other than the person who the hair is attached to. Many nonblack people do so anyway without any regard for the owner's personal space. It is a huge problem. Tumblr alone can provide with hundreds of examples, and i'm sure google could provide thousands.

and i'm done educating for the night. if you are actually serious about learning, you should take the initiative to find out the answers to your own questions instead of using a handful of poc as a walking dictionary. 

on a closing note, as part of the most privileged group, you do not get to make choices on what is or is not racist, what is or is not offensive. Only someone belonging to that particular marginalized group gets to say what is or is not offensive to them. if you don't live it and deal with the consequences, you don't get to call the shots. and yes, fetishes are very bad. 

I would say that your "black people have awesome hair" generalization is racist but my white male privilege prevents me from doing so.

Could I say its racist even though I'm not white or am I supposed to hate you?

[werewoof]

in all due seriousness though while i see the validity in an argument about the marketing reasons behind generic white dude #47 nobody seems to be presenting them in a way that offers them as a reason for the problem. its mostly just, thinly-veiled excuses to cry about someone other than a white dude wanting recognition.

there are marketing reasons for the usual boxy stubbley white man in the majority of video games but that hardly means they're right, it just means, that's how marketing works and op was directing the thread at the marketing of the game anyways.

personally while the boring ass white guy in the demo is irritating, at least they're doing better with the concept art. it shows that bioware is making an effort to be more inclusive, even if their marketing department might not let them get away with it in the outright ads for the game.

[Daerog]

Cigne wrote...


In another, similar thread, it was suggested that Bioware do a cover like KotOR.

If they showcase the various companions to the Inquisitor on the cover instead of the pc, it would highlight one of Bioware's strength's and also be somewhat inclusive.

Ya, there is a thread talking about the DA:I cover, this thread is supposedly about demos (the videos). Specifically, the PC in demos.

However, while asking to see more variety in demo videos this turned into.... well, this.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 09 septembre 2013 - 06:54 .

[Sabariel]

Cigne wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Representation in marketing is important. Representation is important, period. Generic White Males have had more than their fair share of representation over the years. It is time for a change.

I certainly agree that we need more equal representation, particularly in gaming... but why is the solution to simply pick another group to cater to as the marketing iconic?

The marketing should be inclusive, but that means showing that a protagonist could literally be anyone - skin colour, gender, fantasy race, whatever.  

In another, similar thread, it was suggested that Bioware do a cover like KotOR.

If they showcase the various companions to the Inquisitor on the cover instead of the pc, it would highlight one of Bioware's strength's and also be somewhat inclusive.

If the white companions aren't front-and-center with PoC grouped around and behind them like accessories then, yes, I can get behind this...

Doesn't solve the marketing problem, however.

Modifié par Sabariel, 09 septembre 2013 - 06:54 .

[lady_v23]

I'm all for anything that is not the generic white male. Something unique, a cover than I can look at in the store and not think this game is targeted to heterosexual teenage boys.

And I mean, calling white people privileged is a little much. Not their fault that society suddenly made that desicion. You can't throw it in their face and expect them to be sorry about it.

And yea.. this is coming from a 100% Dominican/Amazonian XD

[Ecmoose]

N7_killswitch wrote...

So... your point is that I should stop trying to relate?  Is that really your problem with me?  Because what I was doing with the hair thing was empathizing - or so I thought.  Is that somehow not allowed?  I said it sucks and is creepy.  What more do you want?

Also where did I try and claim anything was or wasn't racist?  Because that was never my intention. 

And I fail to see why having a 'type' is bad.  Is it bad that I have a thing for redheaded women?  Or is it only bad if I were to happen to have a thing for women with dark skin?  

Re: having a "type": Having a thing for women with red hair, or a woman with a big nose, etc etc etc is fine. It's when that one feature becomes the only thing you care about that it becomes a fetish. Did you ask that girl out because she's cute and date her because she's smart and funny, or did you get her number so you could say to your friends "yo I found another hot asian/indian/black/hispanic/etc chick!" That's where it crosses the line. If you're with someone for more than their heritage no one is going to drop that fetishist bomb on you (well, maybe a few crazy zealots but no one who actually matters).

[Fredward]

If only some of you realized how hard you were making Marx and Gramsci cry right now. I can't even.

[thatguy212]

AppealToReason wrote...

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Ya, this is getting off topic...

there was a topic? 

Yeah. "Cater to me instead of evil white cis males because oppression"

But I don't care about the generic dude! Why does that make me evil:crying:

well first of all the genes that cause white skin are inherently evil, thats just plain science, secondly being comfortable in your own skin is lunacy, and finally males have this thing called a penis, which is similar in shape to a missile, and missiles kill people which is bad

Modifié par thatguy212, 09 septembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[phunx]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

If only some of you realized how hard you were making Marx and Gramsci cry right now. I can't even.

Oh yes, big time.

[Daerog]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

If only some of you realized how hard you were making Marx and Gramsci cry right now. I can't even.

Huh, I don't recall learning about this Gramsci fellow before. Quick Wikipedia search and I now know of his cultural hegemony theory. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, new food for thought.

[AppealToReason]

phunx wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

If only some of you realized how hard you were making Marx and Gramsci cry right now. I can't even.

Oh yes, big time.

I've often wondered what George Orwell would think of the internet.

[killswitch423]

Ecmoose wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

So... your point is that I should stop trying to relate?  Is that really your problem with me?  Because what I was doing with the hair thing was empathizing - or so I thought.  Is that somehow not allowed?  I said it sucks and is creepy.  What more do you want?

Also where did I try and claim anything was or wasn't racist?  Because that was never my intention. 

And I fail to see why having a 'type' is bad.  Is it bad that I have a thing for redheaded women?  Or is it only bad if I were to happen to have a thing for women with dark skin?  

Re: having a "type": Having a thing for women with red hair, or a woman with a big nose, etc etc etc is fine. It's when that one feature becomes the only thing you care about that it becomes a fetish. Did you ask that girl out because she's cute and date her because she's smart and funny, or did you get her number so you could say to your friends "yo I found another hot asian/indian/black/hispanic/etc chick!" That's where it crosses the line. If you're with someone for more than their heritage no one is going to drop that fetishist bomb on you (well, maybe a few crazy zealots but no one who actually matters).

Ah, another simple case of the same word used for different, equally valid, things.  I've always taken the standard use of 'fetish' as simply a preference sexually, or something that is found attractive/appealing.  Ah, well.  The creepy and douchy stuff is... yeah, well, creepy and douchy.

[werewoof]

as far as the marketing issue goes it boils down to how much it is and is not warranted. that is their largest demographic, but the gap might be wider than it would have been had they been more inclusive in their advertising, thus bringing in other demographics rather than potentially putting them off. so its something of a chicken and egg concept i guess, how much of it is just the marketing team reacting to the statistics they're given and how much of it is the marketing starting to affect what its market actually is by creating an environment in which people who arent white males feel alienated.

which, if you ask me, i think what they've been doing kinda works. the demo i dont take too much to heart because ehhh it was a demo, not a trailer. the trailer however didnt even really show the player character, just a silhouette. so i think if bioware sticks with the ambiguity they might be able to shut the marketing division up without also excluding part of their fanbase.

basically i get it, i get that the bioware devs arent all powerful and they do have to answer to ea execs and marketing people and theres a lot of delightful red tape with that so i do see why theyve been a little restricted. but that being said the fans' desire for visibility is still a valid thing and all this "stop wanting the same amount of respect that i get, thats DEMANDING" is whats causing most of my irritation, not bioware.

[killswitch423]

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

[AppealToReason]

tiktac wrote...

as far as the marketing issue goes it boils down to how much it is and is not warranted. that is their largest demographic, but the gap might be wider than it would have been had they been more inclusive in their advertising, thus bringing in other demographics rather than potentially putting them off. so its something of a chicken and egg concept i guess, how much of it is just the marketing team reacting to the statistics they're given and how much of it is the marketing starting to affect what its market actually is by creating an environment in which people who arent white males feel alienated.

which, if you ask me, i think what they've been doing kinda works. the demo i dont take too much to heart because ehhh it was a demo, not a trailer. the trailer however didnt even really show the player character, just a silhouette. so i think if bioware sticks with the ambiguity they might be able to shut the marketing division up without also excluding part of their fanbase.

basically i get it, i get that the bioware devs arent all powerful and they do have to answer to ea execs and marketing people and theres a lot of delightful red tape with that so i do see why theyve been a little restricted. but that being said the fans' desire for visibility is still a valid thing and all this "stop wanting the same amount of respect that i get, thats DEMANDING" is whats causing most of my irritation, not bioware.

I did an entire marketing research paper on this. The conclusion was basically inconclusive. For every chicken point, you could make out for the egg.

[werewoof]

N7_killswitch wrote...

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

i like the title and ambiguous hand and sword stuff they've been doing with the promo poster things so far. i hope they stick with that. ideally we'd see a wide range of inquisitors in a nicer world but when it comes down to "how can we shut up the marketing dept without alienating part of the fanbase as well", the ambiguous designs that don't even show the protagonist work