180 réponses à ce sujet

[Cigne]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Cigne wrote...


In another, similar thread, it was suggested that Bioware do a cover like KotOR.

If they showcase the various companions to the Inquisitor on the cover instead of the pc, it would highlight one of Bioware's strength's and also be somewhat inclusive.

Ya, there is a thread talking about the DA:I cover, this thread is supposedly about demos (the videos). Specifically, the PC in demos.

However, while asking to see more variety in demo videos this turned into.... well, this.

Yeah...I was going to suggest Bioware might have considered using the Blood Dragon armor in the demo, but I didn't see it really adding anything to the discussion.

And I really like the companion cover idea, so I thought I'd mention it.

[werewoof]

AppealToReason wrote...

tiktac wrote...

as far as the marketing issue goes it boils down to how much it is and is not warranted. that is their largest demographic, but the gap might be wider than it would have been had they been more inclusive in their advertising, thus bringing in other demographics rather than potentially putting them off. so its something of a chicken and egg concept i guess, how much of it is just the marketing team reacting to the statistics they're given and how much of it is the marketing starting to affect what its market actually is by creating an environment in which people who arent white males feel alienated.

which, if you ask me, i think what they've been doing kinda works. the demo i dont take too much to heart because ehhh it was a demo, not a trailer. the trailer however didnt even really show the player character, just a silhouette. so i think if bioware sticks with the ambiguity they might be able to shut the marketing division up without also excluding part of their fanbase.

basically i get it, i get that the bioware devs arent all powerful and they do have to answer to ea execs and marketing people and theres a lot of delightful red tape with that so i do see why theyve been a little restricted. but that being said the fans' desire for visibility is still a valid thing and all this "stop wanting the same amount of respect that i get, thats DEMANDING" is whats causing most of my irritation, not bioware.

I did an entire marketing research paper on this. The conclusion was basically inconclusive. For every chicken point, you could make out for the egg.

my point exactly. regardless of how i feel about it on a personal and socio-political level, when it comes to marketing and economics it tends to just go around in a big circle. white male is biggest demographic -> marketing caters mainly to white males -> white male marketing alienates other demographics -> white male is biggest demographic ad nauseam. 

so i'm still in the camp of just, do a nice ambiguous logo and avoid that mess.

[killswitch423]

tiktac wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

i like the title and ambiguous hand and sword stuff they've been doing with the promo poster things so far. i hope they stick with that. ideally we'd see a wide range of inquisitors in a nicer world but when it comes down to "how can we shut up the marketing dept without alienating part of the fanbase as well", the ambiguous designs that don't even show the protagonist work

Something along those lines exactly.  Though if they used that awesome sword people would eventually complain there's no staves, daggers, or bows on the cover.  

[Thiefy]

N7_killswitch wrote...

So... your point is that I should stop trying to relate?  Is that really your problem with me?  Because what I was doing with the hair thing was empathizing - or so I thought.  Is that somehow not allowed?  I said it sucks and is creepy.  What more do you want?

Also where did I try and claim anything was or wasn't racist?  Because that was never my intention. 

And I fail to see why having a 'type' is bad.  Is it bad that I have a thing for redheaded women?  Or is it only bad if I were to happen to have a thing for women with dark skin?  

Saying that people touching black people's hair isn't a problem because you also expereinced something similar isn't empathizing - it's trivalizing the problem. It's is a HUGE problem, one whose scope I'm fairly sure you don't realize judging by your reaction. It would do you really good right now to look it up and find out what I mean, rather than question someone who is attempting to help you out (Sabriel and Ecmoose).

"but it's not just a racial thing in my humble opinion" - this is where you said something wasn't racism.

And yes, fetishizing based on race is still problematic as many others have pointed out. I posted one link on page 2 or 3 for someone else but it lists a truckload of reasons why fetishes for PoC are bad (both male and female). 

[Ecmoose]

tiktac wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

i like the title and ambiguous hand and sword stuff they've been doing with the promo poster things so far. i hope they stick with that. ideally we'd see a wide range of inquisitors in a nicer world but when it comes down to "how can we shut up the marketing dept without alienating part of the fanbase as well", the ambiguous designs that don't even show the protagonist work

Agreed although it seems to be the popular theory that those figures are just handing the inquisitor his gear.

However that could still be a decent marketing gimmick. Sticking with an armored helmeted Inquisitor for demos and trailors and making it so that those blurred figures are giving "you" (the player/inquisitor" the power to shape the world. It circumvents alienating anyone but I'd be curious to see what kind of statistics they have inf avor of a more visable protagonist.

[AppealToReason]

tiktac wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

i like the title and ambiguous hand and sword stuff they've been doing with the promo poster things so far. i hope they stick with that. ideally we'd see a wide range of inquisitors in a nicer world but when it comes down to "how can we shut up the marketing dept without alienating part of the fanbase as well", the ambiguous designs that don't even show the protagonist work

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they have the demo prepped for a Qunari. And the basic face models they released were all grey-scale. The trailer was all non descript. The promotional materials so far have been non descript. 

The cover will probably be something like Skyrim and other such covers if you look at the way a lot of games have been trending over the last while. The focus has shifted from character to the franchise for a lot of companies so the covers have become 'LOOK AT THE LOGO! THIS IS NOW AND ALWAYS ________" less than "Look at the person".

[Thiefy]

AppealToReason wrote...

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
You are doing it wrong. the LEARNING part. The one you asked for.
Here are people trying to teach you why people are upset and taking the time to educate you. Instead of listening, you are making the issue (marginalized people) and making it about you, and how you aren't possibly part of "the bad group".

This is not about you. This is not about your exeperiences, and definately not about your feelings of being offended.

That above statement is not about going out of my way to make you feel bad or guilty, it is about making you examine what the problem is and how you may or may not be contributing to it. Let it stew for a bit before posting.

Black people have really, really awesome hair. Often naturally, but sometimes aided with chemical relaxers and/or the addition of something called a weave. It is a beautiful thing but it is not ment to be touched by anyone other than the person who the hair is attached to. Many nonblack people do so anyway without any regard for the owner's personal space. It is a huge problem. Tumblr alone can provide with hundreds of examples, and i'm sure google could provide thousands.

and i'm done educating for the night. if you are actually serious about learning, you should take the initiative to find out the answers to your own questions instead of using a handful of poc as a walking dictionary. 

on a closing note, as part of the most privileged group, you do not get to make choices on what is or is not racist, what is or is not offensive. Only someone belonging to that particular marginalized group gets to say what is or is not offensive to them. if you don't live it and deal with the consequences, you don't get to call the shots. and yes, fetishes are very bad. 

I would say that your "black people have awesome hair" generalization is racist but my white male privilege prevents me from doing so.

Could I say its racist even though I'm not white or am I supposed to hate you?

 
Oh, you dudebros are starting to catch on. There's hope yet for this world  

You are actually correct on both terms, Ryan. My comment could be racist, easily, as I'm not black. The only person who could make that call though, is someone who is black. And if they call me out, I shall have to step down.

Simple as that. 

It's good to see you start to recognize your privilege and what you don't get to do with it. 

[killswitch423]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

So... your point is that I should stop trying to relate?  Is that really your problem with me?  Because what I was doing with the hair thing was empathizing - or so I thought.  Is that somehow not allowed?  I said it sucks and is creepy.  What more do you want?

Also where did I try and claim anything was or wasn't racist?  Because that was never my intention. 

And I fail to see why having a 'type' is bad.  Is it bad that I have a thing for redheaded women?  Or is it only bad if I were to happen to have a thing for women with dark skin?  

Saying that people touching black people's hair isn't a problem because you also expereinced something similar isn't empathizing - it's trivalizing the problem. It's is a HUGE problem, one whose scope I'm fairly sure you don't realize judging by your reaction. It would do you really good right now to look it up and find out what I mean, rather than question someone who is attempting to help you out (Sabriel and Ecmoose).

"but it's not just a racial thing in my humble opinion" - this is where you said something wasn't racism.

And yes, fetishizing based on race is still problematic as many others have pointed out. I posted one link on page 2 or 3 for someone else but it lists a truckload of reasons why fetishes for PoC are bad (both male and female). 

I'm sorry if it read as if I was saying it wsn't a problem, it is.  Just that it's not a problem ONLY for ethnicities.  That doesn't mean it's any less of a problem for ethnicities.  This is 2am typing here, man.  Sorry if things aren't coming across as I mean them or you see me saying things in between lines that aren't there, I don't know.  The "just" part was the focus of that sentence for me.

I think we are using the word fetish in two different ways here, the way you seem to think I mean I have already stated is creepy and douchy.  I was simply referring to having a sexual preference in regards to appearance, not the crazy obsessive stuff.  Confusion of semantics, really, that doesn't need to go any further I don't think because I agree with you in your terms of fetishism.

This thread really doesn't need to be locked now, so you think we can leave this line of conversation for now? 


....So yeah.  White background on the cover with red text would be schweet.

Edit:  Man, it really makes it hard to have a conversation in seriousness with you about this when you keep throwing around "dudebro."

Modifié par N7_killswitch, 09 septembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[werewoof]

AppealToReason wrote...

tiktac wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

i like the title and ambiguous hand and sword stuff they've been doing with the promo poster things so far. i hope they stick with that. ideally we'd see a wide range of inquisitors in a nicer world but when it comes down to "how can we shut up the marketing dept without alienating part of the fanbase as well", the ambiguous designs that don't even show the protagonist work

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they have the demo prepped for a Qunari. And the basic face models they released were all grey-scale. The trailer was all non descript. The promotional materials so far have been non descript. 

The cover will probably be something like Skyrim and other such covers if you look at the way a lot of games have been trending over the last while. The focus has shifted from character to the franchise for a lot of companies so the covers have become 'LOOK AT THE LOGO! THIS IS NOW AND ALWAYS ________" less than "Look at the person".

so far i've actually been pleased with bioware's handling of this. my irritation is mostly at bsn's general "woe is me the white guy"...thing but that's for another thread i suppose. 

they've been trying to make things either varied (concept art featuring all sorts of inquisitors) or ambiguous (trailer and promo posters, and hell, even the demo put the inquisitor in a helmet at least) which is a good way to work within the boundaries they're probably being given by the higher ups. 

Ecmoose wrote...

tiktac wrote...

N7_killswitch wrote...

Anywho, to get to my actual opinion on the topic and not all of this semantic crap that's been going on...

I'd prefer no protagonist on the cover. Maybe a nice, pretty landscape or something.

i like the title and ambiguous hand and sword stuff they've been doing with the promo poster things so far. i hope they stick with that. ideally we'd see a wide range of inquisitors in a nicer world but when it comes down to "how can we shut up the marketing dept without alienating part of the fanbase as well", the ambiguous designs that don't even show the protagonist work

Agreed although it seems to be the popular theory that those figures are just handing the inquisitor his gear.

However that could still be a decent marketing gimmick. Sticking with an armored helmeted Inquisitor for demos and trailors and making it so that those blurred figures are giving "you" (the player/inquisitor" the power to shape the world. It circumvents alienating anyone but I'd be curious to see what kind of statistics they have inf avor of a more visable protagonist.

i am def a fan of that. it keeps to the whole non-descript thing while also being pretty clever marketing since they're trying to really push the player agency thing after how people reacted to how linear da2 was. they probably want to get as far away from "this is Default Hawke and you play the game like a grocery list" 

[Daerog]

greengoron89 wrote...

*snip*

And if not, they're...

...privileged.

*image removed*

Hey, you've been using the wrong pics there greengoron89.

Should be:

"And if not, they're...

... privileged.



Edit: Sorry, just had to make an excuse, this thread seemed to be missing these strange pony creatures that I've been noticing on the internet.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 09 septembre 2013 - 07:21 .

[AntiChri5]

I present to you, ladies and gentleman, the dangers of making everything about your crusade.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd prefer the cover of the game, or at least the CE edition, be black with the Inquisition's symbol on it.

As for the demos, I'd like to see something other than yet another white dude from Ferelden.

[Ecmoose]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I present to you, ladies and gentleman, the dangers of making everything about your crusade.

All things considered, this thread has been relatively civilized and much less hostile than I anticipated. It even somehow found its way back on topic.

[werewoof]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd prefer the cover of the game, or at least the CE edition, be black with the Inquisition's symbol on it.

As for the demos, I'd like to see something other than yet another white dude from Ferelden.

hey, minimalism is in these days, it could totally work. 

i think the demos will prove less dull later on at least. no doubt they'll show more races and classes, since everyone's all excited about that. the boring fereldan dude thing sucked but it was also probably pretty early work, i bet you later on we'll see better demos. no doubt we'll get a qunari one at least, since everyones all excited about that.

[Ecmoose]

I'd even be willing to bet that we'll see some demos based on those other game saves from the PAX demo.

[AppealToReason]

tiktac wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd prefer the cover of the game, or at least the CE edition, be black with the Inquisition's symbol on it.

As for the demos, I'd like to see something other than yet another white dude from Ferelden.

hey, minimalism is in these days, it could totally work. 

i think the demos will prove less dull later on at least. no doubt they'll show more races and classes, since everyone's all excited about that. the boring fereldan dude thing sucked but it was also probably pretty early work, i bet you later on we'll see better demos. no doubt we'll get a qunari one at least, since everyones all excited about that.

You gotta remember that Bioware was only planning on having human PC's for a while so they were probably months/weeks ahead on properly programming the game to fit and interact with a human PC compared to other races.

[werewoof]

AppealToReason wrote...

tiktac wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd prefer the cover of the game, or at least the CE edition, be black with the Inquisition's symbol on it.

As for the demos, I'd like to see something other than yet another white dude from Ferelden.

hey, minimalism is in these days, it could totally work. 

i think the demos will prove less dull later on at least. no doubt they'll show more races and classes, since everyone's all excited about that. the boring fereldan dude thing sucked but it was also probably pretty early work, i bet you later on we'll see better demos. no doubt we'll get a qunari one at least, since everyones all excited about that.

You gotta remember that Bioware was only planning on having human PC's for a while so they were probably months/weeks ahead on properly programming the game to fit and interact with a human PC compared to other races.

that too. even that trailer at e3 they had to scrape together with what was ready. pax was only a few months later, presumably the other ones werent ready to be shown off just yet. 

[ObserverStatus]

DA:I would be far from the first RPG with a WoC on the cover though, just look at Star Paladin Cross on the cover of Fallout 3.

Modifié par bobobo878, 09 septembre 2013 - 07:28 .

[AntiChri5]

Ecmoose wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I present to you, ladies and gentleman, the dangers of making everything about your crusade.

All things considered, this thread has been relatively civilized and much less hostile than I anticipated. It even somehow found its way back on topic.

"Relatively civilised" by the standards of internet debate of race issues is not exactly a hard target to hit.

[Kira_Sadi]

tiktac wrote...

omg I lol'ed soo hard

[Hi my name is Ryan]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
Oh, you dudebros are starting to catch on. There's hope yet for this world

I'm such a hardcore dudebro that I'm taking time off from my usual schedule of playing football (American of course), doing keg stands, and ****ing ****s to post on the forum of a developer that makes games about dragons.

. My comment is racist, easily,  The only person who could make that call though, is someone who is black anyone. And if they call me out, I shall have to step down.

FTFY

It's good to see you start to recognize your privilege and what you don't get to do with it. 

So if I outstep the boundaries of my privilege are the Privilege Police going to arrest me and force me to take a 30 day rehabilitory Sociology course in order to understand the trials of the beautiful POC and why I should be ashamed of being white?

[Ophir147]

Just sitting back watching this all unfold here, but could someone clarify -- 

WoC = woman of color? is there a reason that we're using alphabet soup while arguing about such a... "charged" topic?

@AntiChri5

I don't know, we at the BSN are pretty good at crusading in moderation. LPPrince's hand thing and thats1evildude's geist companion spring to mind. Oh, and "that hat."

EDIT: semicolon cancer

Modifié par Ophir147, 09 septembre 2013 - 07:34 .