170 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

TK514 wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The point was a person isn't malevolent simply because they used blood magic. Some Grey Warden mages use blood magic against the darkspawn; some apostates use blood magic because templars can nullify ordinary magic; it's not inherently evil. The Warden from the Circle and apostate Hawke can use blood magic for the same reasons. simply because some abuse this school of magic doesn't mean they it's evil.

Exactly part of what I'm trying to say. Also, the only suffering the Warden and Hawke inflicting on people were those who would do harm to him/her or others. This again drives home the point that evil is in the heart and mind of individuals, not in what they use. If people are made to suffer, it doesn't matter if it's a Priest, a Mage, a Warrior or a corrupt official that's causing it. No one with power is immune.

So Torture is ok, then.  I mean, as long as you only torture 'bad' people, it's totally fine, right?

There are exactly zero moral or ethical considerations regarding torture, as long as you only torture bad people.  This is what you're saying.

What about torturing good people, for a good end?  Is that good?  If you have to torture a innocent child to save a building full of other innocents, does that make the torture good?  Is that a good act?

I just want to be clear about your position here, so I have a proper understanding about what you consider good and evil.

I don't disagree with you that blood magic can be made all the more powerful by suffering and death, and thus it is a very dangerous tool to use, but I don't think it follows that this makes blood magic inherently evil, since blood, not suffering and death, is the requirement for its use, and I see nothing problematic about a person using their own blood to power a spell, or with people willingly volunteering their own blood, if the cause itself is just.  Yes, there are spells that can only be powered with blood, and some of those spells are unquestionably dark (which doesn't necessarily say that they don't have their justifiable uses, though it does get tricky), but it shouldn't be forgotten that blood can also simply be used as a power source for benign magic.

It's just not the case that someone who finds acceptable--or justifiable, if you'd rather--applications for blood magic, particularly if they are using it as a power source and not for spells only accessible through blood--would necessarily be cool with torture. 

I also question whether there is WoG saying that blood magic is only ever powered by suffering and death, as you are claiming.  Just because this comment is in the World of Thedas doesn't make it Word of God, if it it's presented as the opinion of a DA character.  I'll have to go and pull out my copy now.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 04:25 .

[TK514]

Silfren wrote...

I also question whether there is WoG saying that blood magic is only ever powered by suffering and death, as you are claiming.  Just because this comment is in the World of Thedas doesn't make it Word of God, if it it's presented as the opinion of a DA character.  I'll have to go and pull out my copy now.

Page 107, the first paragraph under the heading 'Blood Magic'.
Page 109, the caption next to the top illustration regarding violent pain or death, and the bottom caption regarding susceptibility to demonic spirits.

I have left out the 'in character' sections, such as those by 'First Enchanter Josephus' and the 'Responsible Blood Magic' letter by Magister Aesthia as potentially biased or anecdotal.

Modifié par TK514, 24 octobre 2013 - 04:34 .

[Silfren]

TK514 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I also question whether there is WoG saying that blood magic is only ever powered by suffering and death, as you are claiming.  Just because this comment is in the World of Thedas doesn't make it Word of God, if it it's presented as the opinion of a DA character.  I'll have to go and pull out my copy now.

Page 107, the first paragraph under the heading 'Blood Magic'.
Page 109, the caption next to the top illustration regarding violent pain or death, and the bottom caption regarding susceptibility to demonic spirits.

I have left out the 'in character' sections, such as those by 'First Enchanter Josephus' and the 'Responsible Blood Magic' letter by Magister Aesthia as potentially biased.

Yeah, I just found them, and I see what you mean, though I do think it's worth noting that the text in question does seem to be written from an in-universe viewpoint. 

I also find it interesting that, despite the explicit mention that blood magic is widely practiced in Tevinter--and this is no secret, obviously, in or outside of Tevinter--that at least some magisters find the practice problematic enough to teach against its use. 

[Tremere]

Silfren wrote...

Just an FYI for GabrielXL: Word of God doesn't refer to the Maker, but to official Bioware statements.  Here's the explanation at tvtropes.

Thanks for the clarification.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:30 .

[Tremere]

Silfren wrote...

I also find it interesting that, despite the explicit mention that blood magic is widely practiced in Tevinter--and this is no secret, obviously, in or outside of Tevinter--that at least some magisters find the practice problematic enough to teach against its use. 

In a place like Tevinter, this isn't hard to imagine at all. With it being the (unspoken) pre-requisite for advancement in their culture, I can imagine it's abuse being an ever present concern.

[Silfren]

GabrielXL wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I also find it interesting that, despite the explicit mention that blood magic is widely practiced in Tevinter--and this is no secret, obviously, in or outside of Tevinter--that at least some magisters find the practice problematic enough to teach against its use. 

In a place like Tevinter, this isn't hard to imagine at all. With it being the (unspoken) pre-requisite for advancement in their culture, I can imagine it's abuse being an ever present concern.

Well, I think it indicates that all Magisters aren't quite so blasé about blood magic as the outer world believes, is my point.  A lot of fans, especially, seem to think of Tevinter as this one-dimensionally evil place where mages practice blood magic from dawn to dusk with happy abandon. 

[Tremere]

Silfren wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I also find it interesting that, despite the explicit mention that blood magic is widely practiced in Tevinter--and this is no secret, obviously, in or outside of Tevinter--that at least some magisters find the practice problematic enough to teach against its use. 

In a place like Tevinter, this isn't hard to imagine at all. With it being the (unspoken) pre-requisite for advancement in their culture, I can imagine it's abuse being an ever present concern.

Well, I think it indicates that all Magisters aren't quite so blasé about blood magic as the outer world believes, is my point.  A lot of fans, especially, seem to think of Tevinter as this one-dimensionally evil place where mages practice blood magic from dawn to dusk with happy abandon. 

I think these kinds of things should be expressed in the game a lot more than they are. At least, I hope they will be in the future. Good and evil is where you find it.

What's more, it's not like children with magical ability are suddenly going to stop being born in Thedas. Now with DA-I, we see that the Chantry isn't really the answer.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:04 .

[Uccio]

TK514 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I also question whether there is WoG saying that blood magic is only ever powered by suffering and death, as you are claiming.  Just because this comment is in the World of Thedas doesn't make it Word of God, if it it's presented as the opinion of a DA character.  I'll have to go and pull out my copy now.

Page 107, the first paragraph under the heading 'Blood Magic'.
Page 109, the caption next to the top illustration regarding violent pain or death, and the bottom caption regarding susceptibility to demonic spirits.

I have left out the 'in character' sections, such as those by 'First Enchanter Josephus' and the 'Responsible Blood Magic' letter by Magister Aesthia as potentially biased or anecdotal.

I've heard on this forum that this 'suffering and death' was put in afterward to make blood magic more 'evil' .

Don't know if it is true, but if it is then that is a cheap way to try to install extra morality in the codex.

[Tremere]

Ukki wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I also question whether there is WoG saying that blood magic is only ever powered by suffering and death, as you are claiming.  Just because this comment is in the World of Thedas doesn't make it Word of God, if it it's presented as the opinion of a DA character.  I'll have to go and pull out my copy now.

Page 107, the first paragraph under the heading 'Blood Magic'.
Page 109, the caption next to the top illustration regarding violent pain or death, and the bottom caption regarding susceptibility to demonic spirits.

I have left out the 'in character' sections, such as those by 'First Enchanter Josephus' and the 'Responsible Blood Magic' letter by Magister Aesthia as potentially biased or anecdotal.

I've heard on this forum that this 'suffering and death' was put in afterward to make blood magic more 'evil' .

Don't know if it is true, but if it is then that is a cheap way to try to install extra morality in the codex.

I agree... If true, it is pretty lame.

[Wulfram]

Ukki wrote...

I've heard on this forum that this 'suffering and death' was put in afterward to make blood magic more 'evil' .

Don't know if it is true, but if it is then that is a cheap way to try to install extra morality in the codex.

I think any comments on the likely motivation behind this are going to be nothing more than speculation.  All that can be said is that it's a setting detail that didn't seem to exist in the previous games.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Blood magic is corrupting. Not in a magical way, but in a natural way.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blood magic is corrupting. Not in a magical way, but in a natural way.

Not if it's used to protect onself from templars who would rape you or kill you without cause.

It can be just as easily said that the power and authority templars have over mages is equally a naturally corrupting influence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GabrielXL wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killing anyone should no matter what always be morally questionable. But there is an honesty to a sword that I can appreciate. It is more... honorable... For lack of a better word. Which means I would rank it closer to the acceptable.

My inner Mage agrees with the first part of your statement.

Honesty is always colored by perception, but I understand your position. Hypothetical situation... You, the honorable swordsman gets accosted by a group of bandits. You are badly outnumbered and as you're being backed into certain doom, all of a sudden, you watch the group in front of you convulse and begin to vomit blood, before collapsing dead. A moment later, your wounds begin to heal and your energy is restored, allowing you to continue the fight from which you emerge victorious. You may not like it... You may not approve, but that Mage saved your life and asked for nothing in return. Why? Because he just doesn't like to see honorable people suffer.

Herein lies the problem... and at least partially because you don't really know what kind of magic was being used. Sure, you could say Blood Magic, but you really don't know. What you do know is that you're able to continue your journey because another person provided aid in a time of need.

Well I wouldn't know no. But the mage would, and it would be him who would ahve to make moral choices of his own. We are not set on this earth to make moral choices on behalf of others, but we do judge them. But just because nobody is around to hear the tree fall, doesn't mean it didn't make a sound. So just because no one knew the amge used blood magic, doesn't mean that the action wasn't morally repugnant. It just means he got away with it.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Yay, we should all learn sinister sorcery, because some polices may abuse their authority and there is just this way to save ourselves. No matter the risks... *causes a demon to take control and terrorizes his area*

[dragonflight288]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Yay, we should all learn sinister sorcery, because some polices may abuse their authority and there is just this way to save ourselves. No matter the risks... *causes a demon to take control and terrorizes his area*

Like in the Denerim Alienage's orphanage, where magic wasn't used at all? Or the Brecilian Forest which was the result of a war? Or Rivain because of a Chantry's Exalted March against non-mage citizens who happened to be followers of the Qun?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Do you know the specifics of the war in the Brecillian Forest? Because I don't. I can't rule out that magics were used extensively there. Particularly not since we find an Artifcat in a ruin within said forest, that shows us a Flashback of people using magic extensively to fight some evil.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do you know the specifics of the war in the Brecillian Forest? Because I don't. I can't rule out that magics were used extensively there. Particularly not since we find an Artifcat in a ruin within said forest, that shows us a Flashback of people using magic extensively to fight some evil.

But we can rule magic out in the other two places, so there's still a pattern.

But you do have a point, especially since we can get the Arcane Warrior spec in the brecilian forest.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, we do know that magic was used in the Exalted March against the Qunari. So both yes and no on that one. We can't say for sure wether or not the magic used, played a part in weakening the veil enough for the massacres to break it entirely.

The Orphanage is however another case. But given that the purge went on in the entirety of the Alienage, however it is only the Orphanage which is affected, seems to show that only this particular kind of senseless violence, agaisnt innocent children no less, triggered the veil tear.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, we do know that magic was used in the Exalted March against the Qunari. So both yes and no on that one. We can't say for sure wether or not the magic used, played a part in weakening the veil enough for the massacres to break it entirely.

World of Thedas says that it was the slaughter that sundered the veil.

The Orphanage is however another case. But given that the purge went on in the entirety of the Alienage, however it is only the Orphanage which is affected, seems to show that only this particular kind of senseless violence, agaisnt innocent children no less, triggered the veil tear.

Which is a non-magical source of demons entering the world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It can be just as easily said that the power and authority templars have over mages is equally a naturally corrupting influence.

All power has a corrupting influence.
It differes depending on the specifics of what kind of power it is, how tempting it is to use and it's abusability.

And nothing is more abusable and tempting than blood magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, we do know that magic was used in the Exalted March against the Qunari. So both yes and no on that one. We can't say for sure wether or not the magic used, played a part in weakening the veil enough for the massacres to break it entirely.

World of Thedas says that it was the slaughter that sundered the veil.

The Orphanage is however another case. But given that the purge went on in the entirety of the Alienage, however it is only the Orphanage which is affected, seems to show that only this particular kind of senseless violence, agaisnt innocent children no less, triggered the veil tear.

Which is a non-magical source of demons entering the world.

Yes. And? It wasn't achieved on a lazy sunday. An extreme case of violence had to prelude it. A single mundane can probably never hope to achieve to tear the veil on his own. He simply doesn't have the capacity for the amount of violence needed. A single mage, no matter how weak, can tear the veil apart and create an uninhabitable region for generations.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, we do know that magic was used in the Exalted March against the Qunari. So both yes and no on that one. We can't say for sure wether or not the magic used, played a part in weakening the veil enough for the massacres to break it entirely.

World of Thedas says that it was the slaughter that sundered the veil.

The Orphanage is however another case. But given that the purge went on in the entirety of the Alienage, however it is only the Orphanage which is affected, seems to show that only this particular kind of senseless violence, agaisnt innocent children no less, triggered the veil tear.

Which is a non-magical source of demons entering the world.

Yes. And? It wasn't achieved on a lazy sunday. An extreme case of violence had to prelude it. A single mundane can probably never hope to achieve to tear the veil on his own. He simply doesn't have the capacity for the amount of violence needed. A single mage, no matter how weak, can tear the veil apart and create an uninhabitable region for generations.

Overall, the point is that magic isn't required to bring demons into the world, and once demons are in the world, they'll often possess the first thing they come across, and won't care if it's a mage or not.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Agreed. I'm just saying that it is exceptionally uncommon (is that just "rare"?), that magic is not involved in the scenario at all. And that magic is by far the usual culprit, when it comes to veil tears.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Agreed. I'm just saying that it is exceptionally uncommon (is that just "rare"?), that magic is not involved in the scenario at all. And that magic is by far the usual culprit, when it comes to veil tears.

True, but magic is often the solution to fixing veil tears as well.

Although in some cases, it is considered impossible.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do you know the specifics of the war in the Brecillian Forest? Because I don't. I can't rule out that magics were used extensively there. Particularly not since we find an Artifcat in a ruin within said forest, that shows us a Flashback of people using magic extensively to fight some evil.

It needs to be pointed out though that blood magic is NOT necessary for that to happen.  The lore plainly says that the Veil becomes thin anywhere that there is massive bloodshed, i.e. war.  Nothing about that requires blood magic. 

What exactly are you suggesting here?  That sure, mundanes do have the capacity for that kind of veil-thinning violence, but that it doesn't matter because they don't have the same capacity for it as mages?  Or are you simply saying that all available examples either do use magic or can't be said not to, so it's not likely to be a problem without magic?

For me, the simple fact is that magic is NOT the only means of making the Veil thin enough to allow demons to roam freely into the world.  Large-scale bloodshed will do the trick just fine, so says the lore, which means that the Veil stands a likelihood of being thinned each and everytime someone goes to war, with or without mages.  I always thought the lore was plain enough on this that nobody should ever hear of a place where the Veil has been torn or thinned, and say "must've been blood mages."

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 04:06 .