192 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

David7204 wrote...

Generally, it's a very bad idea to have the events of a story count for nothing.

Welcome to the conclusion of most mob/crime drama fills, where the characters typically either end up in jail or dead.

Especially if you're looking at the point of the Ozymandias poem, it's pretty clear why most of all Walt's efforts come out to nothing. Still, where all the characters are at the end of the narrative, I can't say everything was pointless.

Modifié par Il Divo, 30 septembre 2013 - 10:07 .

[Il Divo]

Han Shot First wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Overall, awesome resolution. I especially liked the Gretchen/Elliot bit.

Most of what happened in the finale I saw coming but that genuinely surprised me. When Walt appeared in their home I was expecting them to get murdered, and Walt threatening them into bankrolling his children was a clever twist.

Agreed. For the most part, the finale was within what I predicted could happen. It was just executed so damn well.

[Il Divo]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Two questions: Did Jesse forgive Walt? Or did he not kill him only because he knew he'd been hit? It seems hard not to be grateful in that situation, even if logically speaking he put him there.
How on earth do you put ricin in an intact pack of sweetener?

I was wondering about the ricin too. A few ideas: maybe Walt put a small amount in each pack, or having talked to Lydia so often in that diner, he knew exactly which pack she always took. That would seem to fit her need to have a perfect schedule all the time.

[stonbw1]

[Spoilers] To me, it was great. It provided closure to these two whirlwind years in the life of Walter. I thought the rigged machine gun was a bit goofy, but it didn't take away from the episode as a whole. IMO, in a way, this last episode was Walt removing the Heisenburg alter ego: humble, loyal, accepting of his demise.... It was his redemption, coming full circle for him.

Overall, this series has been one of the great joys for me over the last 5 years. It was brilliant and had such a poetic story. The evolution in Walt's story arc will be remembered for a long time..

[Han Shot First]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Two questions: Did Jesse forgive Walt? Or did he not kill him only because he knew he'd been hit? It seems hard not to be grateful in that situation, even if logically speaking he put him there.

I don't think Jesse forgave Walt, or ever could. Walt had let Jane die so he could better manipulate Jesse and he had both poisoned Brock and murdered Mike. Walt was also responsible for Jesse's imprisonment and indirectly caused Andrea's murder. I don't think there is anything Walt could have done to erase all of that.

That being said I do think Jesse was grateful that Walt had 'rescued' him. Without Walt he would have likely ended up in a shallow grave with a bullet in his skull as soon as he had outlived his usefulness to the Aryans. Jesse not killing Walt was a mixture of gratitude and defiance. He made Walt say that he wanted Jesse to kill them and then refused to do it. It was a final "Fvck you, I'm no longer doing what you tell me." When Jesse drives off and is euphoric I think he was celebrating his freedom from Walt as much as he was his freedom from the Aryans.

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

How on earth do you put ricin in an intact pack of sweetener?

It probably wouldn't be that hard to do if you think about it. He probably used a razor to open it and then glued it back together once he had replaced the sweetener with ricin. If he did it carefully it probably wouldn't be that noticeable, especially if a person was not closely inspecting the packet. And most people don't look very closely at packets of sugar or sweetener, they just take them out and tear them open.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 30 septembre 2013 - 04:04 .

[Addai]

I really don't think the end scenes were about Jesse forgiving Walt. It was about him not wanting to have another life on his conscience just out of revenge- except for Todd. lol He didn't need to kill him to be able to go on, since Walt's life was obviously over anyway, and he had his freedom.

As always, some really good images in this episode. Skyler and Walt Jr. living in that grey box was picturesque, showing that they were in prison even if they weren't in prison. We needed to see that just because Walt got to put some things right, he still caused a lot of devastation.

[Brockololly]

Fantastic finale to a fantastic show.

Just really, really well done from start to finish. For as much as Walt basically was able to wrap up a ton of loose ends, he didn't exactly get to ride off into the sunset or have much of a happy ending. He basically ****ed up and ruined the lives of those closest to him due to his pride and selfishness.

Its funny watching some of the earlier episodes when AMC was having the marathon prior to the finale and there is the one episode where Walt doesn't want to undergo treatment for his cancer and Walt JR asks why Walt doesn't just die already then. Contrast that to when Walt JR asks Walt on the phone in the second to last episode to just die already.

You think about it and Walt could have spared his family a hell of a lot of grief if he just refused treatment and died of cancer. Wouldn't have much of a show that way though, I suppose.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Brockololly wrote...
Just really, really well done from start to finish. For as much as Walt basically was able to wrap up a ton of loose ends, he didn't exactly get to ride off into the sunset or have much of a happy ending. He basically ****ed up and ruined the lives of those closest to him due to his pride and selfishness.

The thing is, I agree with this in the sense of realism - a lot of people are dead because of Walt, and those closest to him are going to be forever scarred by this. Marie has lost Hank (though she does at least seem to be taking care of herself in the brief scene we saw of her). Walt Jr. is absolutely shattered when he learns the truth, and this is probably always going to haunt him. Holly is young enough that she'll probably retain no memory of these events, but she's certainly going to hear about it growing up - Walt's crimes have apparently become national news, after all. Skyler broke bad on her own, but I don't think she would have if Walt hadn't, and I think she is genuinely troubled by her complicity beyond just regretting getting caught. (Though I'd have liked to see her show some repentance specifically for wanting Jesse killed, which has to be her lowest moment - I assume it's there in her general guilt and depression, but it doesn't come up again.)

The problem I have is more with the artistic choices of what the episode focused on and how it was presented. I'm still not sure if Walt's self-delusion is completely pierced at the end - he may have lessened the net-negative consequences of his actions, but he did so only through more criminal activity (the neo-N*zis are scumbags, but that doesn't legally or morally entitle somebody to just summarily splatter their innards with a machine gun). And, of course, this situation only exists because of Walter's choices in the first place. But he still gets to die seemingly at peace with himself, having "succeeded" in his plan. We can sit here and say he's wrong, but by making that the final scene with "Baby Blue" playing in the background, the episode does kind of let him have the last word.

If it were up to me, I actually wouldn't have Walter die at the end. Instead of having his cancer come back, I'd have him remain cured but eventually get captured and imprisoned, so that he's faced with a life sentence and the prospect of having to live with everything he's done. But even if they wanted him to die at the end, a better final scene might have been, for example, Skyler, Walt Jr., and Marie being called in to identify or claim the body, making it clear from their demeanor that none of them are "okay" now and that they won't be for a long time.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 30 septembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[Addai]

Yeah I think it shows there are worse things than death. A lot of literature can be summed up by man's fear of death causing him to do horrible things.

I think Lydia got the worst end. Death by stevia. I sympathize for her daughter but her "just kill them all" attitude didn't make her sympathetic by the end. The humidifier blasting in the background as she's dying of ricin is just... lol

The acting was what really shined, especially Bryan Cranston and Anna Gunn. She doesn't get enough credit for her work on the show. Even if Walt is the protagonist, he wouldn't have someone to play off of without Skyler. The fact that she got death threats over her role, and a lot of online hate in general, is disgusting.

[stonbw1]

^ The acting AND the writing shined. The writing was brilliant in that they made an unimaginable sequence of events over two years seem believable. It was a masterpiece. Ironically, the only far-fetched piece of writing in the series that I recall now was in the goofy mechanical machine gun massacre last night. That was a stretch, but everything else was soooo spot-on. As off the wall as some of the scenarios were, it made sense in context.

[Il Divo]

greengoron89 wrote...

Anna Gunn was the voice of Ariel in the Legacy of Kain games. That makes her awesome by default.

No way? How the hell did I not know this? Anne Gunn just jumped ten levels on my respect meter.

I'm sure she just can't wait for this Nosgoth MMO being released.

[Fishy]

Brockololly wrote...

Fantastic finale to a fantastic show.

Just really, really well done from start to finish. For as much as Walt basically was able to wrap up a ton of loose ends, he didn't exactly get to ride off into the sunset or have much of a happy ending. He basically ****ed up and ruined the lives of those closest to him due to his pride and selfishness.

Its funny watching some of the earlier episodes when AMC was having the marathon prior to the finale and there is the one episode where Walt doesn't want to undergo treatment for his cancer and Walt JR asks why Walt doesn't just die already then. Contrast that to when Walt JR asks Walt on the phone in the second to last episode to just die already.

You think about it and Walt could have spared his family a hell of a lot of grief if he just refused treatment and died of cancer. Wouldn't have much of a show that way though, I suppose.

Walt also did try to kill himself in the first episode . Remember ? He failed and than he realize it was firemen and not the cops lol.

I loved it when he said - I did it for myself. I was Alive. It a half-verity. A part was for his family and the other part for himself. He unsheeped himself, but did it the wrong way. In a very destructive way. He was very angry. Too much angry. At the end he was not anymore. He accepted his fate.

LOL @Todd

Todd - Jesus ... Mr.White ...

Also can't really his son for hating his father, but it show that we will never truly understand each others. Often that because of the societal conscience.

Modifié par Suprez30, 30 septembre 2013 - 06:40 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
The acting was what really shined, especially Bryan Cranston and Anna Gunn. She doesn't get enough credit for her work on the show. Even if Walt is the protagonist, he wouldn't have someone to play off of without Skyler. The fact that she got death threats over her role, and a lot of online hate in general, is disgusting.

Well, she did just win an Emmy for it, so its not like she hasn't gotten any recognition.

[KaiserShep]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
(the neo-N*zis are scumbags, but that doesn't legally or morally entitle somebody to just summarily splatter their innards with a machine gun).

Perhaps not, but I have to say, this scene put the biggest smile on my face. It was made even more satisfying by punctuating it with Todd's strangulation, and Lydia's final moments learning that Walt slipped her ricin. Everyone got their comeuppance, and it was pretty glorious.

[Kalas747]

He wrapped that up just about perfectly, I agree with gilligan that an ending left open to ****** fan interpretation would have been terrible for that show.

Instead of an automated machine gun to take out the **** guys he should have had Huell jump out of the trunk with a rocket launcher.

And the scene with elliot and gretchen was pretty funny. Really don't like those two characters.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

^ it's always fun watching Walt's Macgyverisms, and it was a good twist from him just gunning everyone down. Apart from everyone congregating neatly in the arc, anyone know how plausible it is that an M60 can kill everyone through a wall with suppressing fire? You'd think violent gangbangers would get down at the first sign of gunfire
Him shooting Jack in midst of offering his money was another badass moment

Addai67 wrote...
The acting was what really shined, especially Bryan Cranston and Anna Gunn. She doesn't get enough credit for her work on the show. Even if Walt is the protagonist, he wouldn't have someone to play off of without Skyler. The fact that she got death threats over her role, and a lot of online hate in general, is disgusting.

Yes but I feel her emmy was somewhat of a consolation for all the grief she got. I mean Bryan didn't even win and I personally thought Betsy Brandt was a better supporting actress. Aaron Paul is by far my favourite though, he mostly sticks to expressing pain and suffering lol, but my god is he the absolute best at that.

Han Shot First wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

How on earth do you put ricin in an intact pack of sweetener?

It probably wouldn't be that hard to do if you think about it. He probably used a razor to open it and then glued it back together once he had replaced the sweetener with ricin. If he did it carefully it probably wouldn't be that noticeable, especially if a person was not closely inspecting the packet. And most people don't look very closely at packets of sugar or sweetener, they just take them out and tear them open.

I guess that makes sense. It's just that they show lots of closeups of it and I thought it was just foreshadowing what he'll do next.


Other things I haven't mentioned: Literally laughed out loud at the hitmen being Pete and Badger. I knew it was a bluff, but thought it was some contraption he rigged. Turns out he does do that, only with the next plan.

His final Heisenberg manipulation of insulting Jack was brilliant. I also just read someone else suggest that Walt only decided to save Jesse after he saw meth-gimp-jesse and felt reeeeeeeallly bad. I think it's possible, but he also asked about jesse way before.

Modifié par fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:25 .

[JewelsWinnfield]

Kalas747 wrote...

And the scene with elliot and gretchen was pretty funny. Really don't like those two characters.

Yeah, I had a good laugh out of that scene. It was good to see Skinny Pete and Badger for one last time.

btw the very beginning of this episode remindend me of this minisode with Walt and Badger trying to break into a house. If you haven't seen it yet, it's hilarious.

Modifié par Hendrix137, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[Fishy]

Kalas747 wrote...

He wrapped that up just about perfectly, I agree with gilligan that an ending left open to ****** fan interpretation would have been terrible for that show.

Instead of an automated machine gun to take out the **** guys he should have had Huell jump out of the trunk with a rocket launcher.

And the scene with elliot and gretchen was pretty funny. Really don't like those two characters.

Yes .. Theey're wayy too much ''perfect'' and ''preppy''. They have a stick soo much deep into their bunghole has it they think they poop gold brick. The whole ''We're the victim and we have nothing to blame ourself for'' get on my nerve. These kind of people get on my nerve. They way they try to purchase their conscience with money. When they offered Walt a job because he was dying of cancer. That kind of pity disgust me. The way they talk, dress and walk. They're so deep into their own little perfect and superficial world. Living their little fantasies, but clearly lacking any personality. Especialy huge ear man. I knew Walt did not really hire a professional hitman, but they're the kind of idiot to believe anything.

I knew Jesse would not  kill Walt and that he would kill Todd. I knew it. It kind of suck for Walt dying, but he was almost dead anywayé His cancer would not go away..

It sadden me for his sons seeing his father has a monster. He was not really a monster. Just a sad man living a boring life with a cancer who had nothing left, but try to live a little before dying. Even if he did it the wrong way.

[Kalas747]

Hendrix137 wrote...


btw the very beginning of this episode remindend me of this minisode with Walt and Badger trying to break into a house. If you haven't seen it yet, it's hilarious.

LOL!  Laughing so hard right now, never seen it before.  Stuff like that should never be cut from the main show, hilarious.

One of my favorite moments from season 5:

Kuby says he’s already caught up with Badger and Skinny Pete, and he even bugged one of their houses. “For three hours straight, all he talked about was something called Babylon 5.”

[FlyingSquirrel]

KaiserShep wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
(the neo-N*zis are scumbags, but that doesn't legally or morally entitle somebody to just summarily splatter their innards with a machine gun).

Perhaps not, but I have to say, this scene put the biggest smile on my face. It was made even more satisfying by punctuating it with Todd's strangulation, and Lydia's final moments learning that Walt slipped her ricin. Everyone got their comeuppance, and it was pretty glorious.

Well, I don't think revenge is a morally justifiable goal in and of itself, however loathsome the target of revenge might be. But that aside, while Breaking Bad allowed Walter some sympathy, it never actually embraced his morality or his view of the world. His arguments for why he does what he does often seemed weak and self-serving, and he even finally admits to Skyler that serving his own ego was what drove him more than anything.

From that perspective, I think having the final moments of the show depicting Walter carrying out a revenge fantasy against a somewhat one-dimensional group of villains is the wrong choice. We see events from Walter's perspective throughout the show, but then there is always something to undermine his perspective and show it to be wrong-headed - his bad influence on Jesse, Skyler's fear and sense of feeling trapped, Hank's injuries in Season 3, Jane's death, etc. The final act of this episode, however, gives us the end of Walter's life from his own perspective without anything to counter it.

I read a quote somewhere that Gilligan thought ending the show with Walter still alive and everything he cared about destroyed would be a little too much of a kick in the teeth to the audience, but I have to ask, why, exactly? Part of what really made this show work was its willingness to kick us in the teeth by juxtaposing Walter's rationalizations for his behavior with the horrific consequences - he even admits that his own ego was what really drove him in this episode. I don't think this ending redeems Walter, and I don't think the writers did either, but they did leave the door open to an interpretation along those lines by fading to black straight off of Walter's death.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 30 septembre 2013 - 10:01 .

[Addai]

I don't think the writers intended to redeem Walt, rather to make his arc complete which is different. To show things coming full circle. The shootout is no different than Gus shooting random cartel or Jack taking out Declan and his crew- the point is not the individual thugs, it's that this kind of violence will always accompany high-level greed. There will always be a strongman who steps into the vacuum. You live by the sword, you die by it.

People are being hard on Gretchen and Eliot. What did they do? Their charity wasn't real charity, it was an attempt to shield their business from blowback, but it's still 1000% better than Walt's legacy. It was good TV, but they certainly didn't deserve Walt terrorizing them. He's still the bad guy in that scenario, albeit not as bad as he could have been.

[Costin_Razvan]

Actually what Gilligan himself stated was that Heisenberg took some steps towards redemption there, but only a few steps and that he did not achieve it.

As for Elliot and Gretchen, I think it's likely that Gretchen who was Walt's girlfriend, maybe even fiancee if I recall correctly, cheated on Walt with Elliot. That is why Walt left Grey Matter.

Also they were lying out of their asses when they said Walt only was responsible for the name. Yes Walt is far worse then that, but they are no innocents and this episode is about justice being found for every single person.

With regards to an Emmy, I would have given that to either Mike ( since it was 5a and not 5b for the awards ) or Lydia or even Todd's actor. Skyler's actress, while good, just doesn't match their performance for me.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 septembre 2013 - 11:58 .

[Isichar]

The minisode with Badger was awesome. I watched the other episodes and I got to say... I dont think I will ever look at hank the same way again