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[Br3admax]

[quote]Barquiel wrote...

[quote]Forst1999 wrote...

[quote]Br3ad wrote...

[/quote]
The Codex and the Councilor's themselves say otherwise. Especially the Salarian one, at least he was elected. 

[/quote]

I don't remember that. I'll search the codex, but could you elaborate when a councilor said that?

[/quote]

We know the Asari councilor is elected. According to the ME1 codex, she is the sole elected official of the Republics.

[/quote]
Read Liara's terminal, the Shadow Broker one of course, and you'll see the Salarian Councilor say that he will forgo reelection to help people escape the Reapers. 
Scratch that, I don't get ME3's point there. This became more confusing for me. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 10 septembre 2013 - 05:49 .

[Han Shot First]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

All governments are hypocritical. The Asari Republics aren't exactly unique in that. The Asari are more deserving of a seat because after the Turians and the Alliance, they played the largest role in the Reapers' defeat.

As for the Morning War, that was no one's fault except the Quarians. It also wasn't the job of every other faction to lose blood and treasure in a war on the Quarians' behalf, particularly when it was Quarian circumvention of intergalactic law regarding artificial intelligences that led to the conflict in the first place.

The Geth still wiped out billions of Quarian men, women and children and not just Quarians as mentioned in ME2 members of other species died to during the uprising.

Plus you don't punish the son for the sins of the father nor do you do that for nearly 10 generations, In my opinion every Quarian death after the uprising is on the Councils hands.

The Asari didn't do anything they were threatened directly by the Reapers. And in my playthroughs the Quarians contribute to ther war effort after all the Geth are wiped out and Legion is full of holes.

The Asari Councilor was right, and it was Udina who was being unreasonable. The unpleasant truth was that Earth was buying time for the rest of the galaxy to prepare a better defense. Had the Asari simply acquiesced to Udina's demand, the Asari fleet would have been committed in a foolish battle to retake Earth that would have failed spectacularly, and it would only served to accelerate the extinction cycle.

After the Turians and the Alliance they also play the largest role in the Reaper's defeat. They are no danger of losing a seat.

I do think Council policy was a bit flawed regarding the Quarians after the Morning War. They should have been allowed to settle a suitable colony world, even if it meant diplomatically strong-arming some other faction. But the Council isn't to blame for Rannoch being lost and for the deaths of billions of Quarians. The blame for that lies entirely with the Quarians, both for creating artificial intelligences to serve as a labor force and for sparking the Morning War entirely without provocation.

[dublin omega 223]

Han Shot First wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

All governments are hypocritical. The Asari Republics aren't exactly unique in that. The Asari are more deserving of a seat because after the Turians and the Alliance, they played the largest role in the Reapers' defeat.

As for the Morning War, that was no one's fault except the Quarians. It also wasn't the job of every other faction to lose blood and treasure in a war on the Quarians' behalf, particularly when it was Quarian circumvention of intergalactic law regarding artificial intelligences that led to the conflict in the first place.

The Geth still wiped out billions of Quarian men, women and children and not just Quarians as mentioned in ME2 members of other species died to during the uprising.

Plus you don't punish the son for the sins of the father nor do you do that for nearly 10 generations, In my opinion every Quarian death after the uprising is on the Councils hands.

The Asari didn't do anything they were threatened directly by the Reapers. And in my playthroughs the Quarians contribute to ther war effort after all the Geth are wiped out and Legion is full of holes.

The Asari Councilor was right, and it was Udina who was being unreasonable. The unpleasant truth was that Earth was buying time for the rest of the galaxy to prepare a better defense. Had the Asari simply acquiesced to Udina's demand, the Asari fleet would have been committed in a foolish battle to retake Earth that would have failed spectacularly, and it would only served to accelerate the extinction cycle.

After the Turians and the Alliance they also play the largest role in the Reaper's defeat. They are no danger of losing a seat.

I do think Council policy was a bit flawed regarding the Quarians after the Morning War. They should have been allowed to settle a suitable colony world, even if it meant diplomatically strong-arming some other faction. But the Council isn't to blame for Rannoch being lost and for the deaths of billions of Quarians. The blame for that lies entirely with the Quarians, both for creating artificial intelligences to serve as a labor force and for sparking the Morning War entirely without provocation.

The Asari still kept the beacon for themselves. For breaking Citadel Law in regars for that they'd lose a seat. If the Quarians lost the embassy due to brekaing Citadel Law and the Asari werent punished it show the Council has a double standard.

I say myself that the Asari Councillor was wrong, from what we saw at that moment Earth was bearing the brunt of the Reapers invasion. As I said before in his shoes I'd have done the same thing but I wouldn't have gone to Cerberus for help.

Maybe the Quarians are to blame but the Geth stll wiped out innocent Quarian men, women and children, even if it was in self defence. That is in no way justifable.

[Forst1999]

If you remove the Asari (one of the greatest military forces and the biggest economy) from the Council, the Council loses strength and becomes less effective. That's like removing the US, Russia or China from the UN security council: it would immediatly lose it's weight.
Almost every species screwed up during this war or acted egoistical. But in the end, they succeeded together. If you immediatly start playing the blame game after the war, and punish the species whose behavior doesn't suit you, you waste a great chance for galactic politics.

[Sir DeLoria]

dublin omega 223 wrote...
The Asari still kept the beacon for themselves. For breaking Citadel Law in regars for that they'd lose a seat. If the Quarians lost the embassy due to brekaing Citadel Law and the Asari werent punished it show the Council has a double standard.

I say myself that the Asari Councillor was wrong, from what we saw at that moment Earth was bearing the brunt of the Reapers invasion. As I said before in his shoes I'd have done the same thing but I wouldn't have gone to Cerberus for help.

Maybe the Quarians are to blame but the Geth stll wiped out innocent Quarian men, women and children, even if it was in self defence. That is in no way justifable.

It wasn't self defence. Sure, killing attacking soldiers was, but slaughtering civilians was murder. Driving the Quarians from their homeworld was cultural genocide. 

[dublin omega 223]

Necanor wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...
The Asari still kept the beacon for themselves. For breaking Citadel Law in regars for that they'd lose a seat. If the Quarians lost the embassy due to brekaing Citadel Law and the Asari werent punished it show the Council has a double standard.

I say myself that the Asari Councillor was wrong, from what we saw at that moment Earth was bearing the brunt of the Reapers invasion. As I said before in his shoes I'd have done the same thing but I wouldn't have gone to Cerberus for help.

Maybe the Quarians are to blame but the Geth stll wiped out innocent Quarian men, women and children, even if it was in self defence. That is in no way justifable.

It wasn't self defence. Sure, killing attacking soldiers was, but slaughtering civilians was murder. Driving the Quarians from their homeworld was cultural genocide. 

And the Council not helping the Quarians for 300 years was not right at all.

[dublin omega 223]

Forst1999 wrote...

If you remove the Asari (one of the greatest military forces and the biggest economy) from the Council, the Council loses strength and becomes less effective. That's like removing the US, Russia or China from the UN security council: it would immediatly lose it's weight.
Almost every species screwed up during this war or acted egoistical. But in the end, they succeeded together. If you immediatly start playing the blame game after the war, and punish the species whose behavior doesn't suit you, you waste a great chance for galactic politics.

I'd still kick the Asari off the Council. Karma for keeping the Beacon for themselves.

[Barquiel]

Representation on the council needs to reflect the reality of power/population figures. Major powers like the Turians or the Asari aren't going to let themselves be outvoted by the Hanar or the Quarians. And without Turian and Asari backing, the council is pretty much meaningless. They police council space (the Asari outer council space, the Turians inner council space)...other races simply don't have the military to do that. Apart from that, the epilogue shows Asari, Turians and Humans as active members of the galactic community, these three races are definitely council races (only the Salarians are absent for one reason or another, but that could also be a design oversight).

Modifié par Barquiel, 10 septembre 2013 - 06:58 .

[Br3admax]

I wouldn't say the salarians are unimportant to the Council, considering that they helped make the Council and the Spectres.

[The Night Mammoth]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

If you remove the Asari (one of the greatest military forces and the biggest economy) from the Council, the Council loses strength and becomes less effective. That's like removing the US, Russia or China from the UN security council: it would immediatly lose it's weight.
Almost every species screwed up during this war or acted egoistical. But in the end, they succeeded together. If you immediatly start playing the blame game after the war, and punish the species whose behavior doesn't suit you, you waste a great chance for galactic politics.

I'd still kick the Asari off the Council. Karma for keeping the Beacon for themselves.

Why? It's not like every asari ever knew about the beacon, only certain members of their government. The whole species doesn't deserve punishment for the actions of a tiny fraction of it.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 10 septembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Oni Changas]

Wrex or another Krogan, Dominic Osoba for the humans, and maybe Admiral Koris. I can totally see the Quarians and possibly a remilitarized Krogan getting a seat in the near future.

[Barquiel]

Br3ad wrote...

I wouldn't say the salarians are unimportant to the Council, considering that they helped make the Council and the Spectres.

Hackett says the Salarians are fully committed to the war effort if you sabotaged the cure, and that's still laughable compared to what the Turians and Asari bring to the table by the end of the game (sabotaging the genophage cure is worth 150 salarian war assets iirc). I think their military is rather small, but very well trained and equipped.

[Wulfram]

Barquiel wrote...

Hackett says the Salarians are fully committed to the war effort if you sabotaged the cure, and that's still laughable compared to what the Turians and Asari bring to the table by the end of the game (sabotaging the genophage cure is worth 150 salarian war assets iirc). I think their military is rather small, but very well trained and equipped.

There's no Salarian scientists asset.  There obviously should be a Salarian scientists asset, that's what they're good at.  So I really wouldn't pay much attention to the war assets.

Their military is surely smaller than the Turians, but it's still pretty sizable.  They've got 16 dreadnoughts, after all.

[Forst1999]

Br3ad wrote...

Read Liara's terminal, the Shadow Broker one of course, and you'll see the Salarian Councilor say that he will forgo reelection to help people escape the Reapers. 
Scratch that, I don't get ME3's point there. This became more confusing for me. 

I think the entry you're refferring to had nothing to do with the Citadel Council. That was some other council. The guy was named Goujir, or something like that.

[Sir DeLoria]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

The Quarians only have a population the size of the Netherlands, at the most they should get an embassy.

True, but population isn't all that matters when it comes to council status. Otherwise a lot of species would loose their positions following ME3.

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

The Quarians only have a population the size of the Netherlands, at the most they should get an embassy.

True, but population isn't all that matters when it comes to council status. Otherwise a lot of species would loose their positions following ME3.

No Necanor.

The quarians will at best be on a long path to galactic relevence.  For now they might get an embassy.

[wolfhowwl]

Wulfram wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Hackett says the Salarians are fully committed to the war effort if you sabotaged the cure, and that's still laughable compared to what the Turians and Asari bring to the table by the end of the game (sabotaging the genophage cure is worth 150 salarian war assets iirc). I think their military is rather small, but very well trained and equipped.

There's no Salarian scientists asset.  There obviously should be a Salarian scientists asset, that's what they're good at.  So I really wouldn't pay much attention to the war assets.

Their military is surely smaller than the Turians, but it's still pretty sizable.  They've got 16 dreadnoughts, after all.

Bioware wants people to cure the genophage. The low war assets the Salarians give you is just a slap to the players who didn't play the way the writers wanted. Nevermind that their navy is twice as big as that of the Alliance.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 10 septembre 2013 - 07:54 .

[Han Shot First]

Dublin omega 223 wrote...

The Asari still kept the beacon for themselves. For breaking Citadel Law in regars for that they'd lose a seat. If the Quarians lost the embassy due to brekaing Citadel Law and the Asari werent punished it show the Council has a double standard.

Breaking intergalactic law isn't necessarily grounds for losing Council status. After all the Alliance got caught red-handed conducting illegal A.I. research, and they didn't get the boot. It may have been a major diplomatic SNAFU but it didn't prevent a human from getting tapped for Spectre status nor did it prevent humanity from gaining a Council seat.

The difference between the Alliance and the Quarians is in scale. The Quarians created an entire Synthetic race numbering in the billions, and subsequently threatened the entire galaxy with the prospect of a technological singularity. It was the scale of what the Quarians did that brought about sanctions.

Simply hording artificacts is hardly cause for ejection, and it is counter-balanced by the fact that along with the Turians and the Alliance, the Asari Republics played one of the largest roles in defeating the Reapers. In evaluating whether or not a faction deserves a Council seat their failures and their successes would have to be taken into consideration.

Also, who is going to eject the Asari? Non-members like the Quarians or the Hanar?

The Asari created the Council and it would take a vote by other Council members to strip them of that status. Assuming for a moment that both the Turians and the Alliance would even support that motion (highly unlikely), all the Asari would need in order to defeat it is a 'nay' vote by the Salarians. And that nay vote would be ridiculously easy to obtain. After all if the Council races started playing the blame game, the Salarians contributed least to the victory over the Reapers and even potentially obstructed the war effort in a temper tantrum over the genophage cure. That would put the Salarians in a precarious position if the Asari were ejected as it would leave the Salarian Union politically isolated. The Asari would merely have to offer the Salarians a carrot (the Asari voting against motions that were counter to Salarian interests) and that 'nay' vote would be guaranteed.

The Asari would also have a means of diplomatically strong-arming the Turians. They could put forward their own motion to grant the Volus a Council seat. This would threaten the Turians in a number of ways. First it would jeopardize the hegemony the Turians have over the Vol Protectorate, and it would raise the prospect of creating an Asari-Volus-Salarian polticial bloc that would not be friendly to Turian interests. As such the Turians might be forced into accepting a Quid-Pro-Quo. The Turians support the Asari maintaining a Council seat in return for the Asari shelving any attempt to grant the Volus Council status.

Any motion to strip the Asari of a Council seat is doomed to fail. Its just not politically viable.

Dublin omega 223 wrote...


I say myself that the Asari Councillor was wrong, from what we saw at that moment Earth was bearing the brunt of the Reapers invasion. As I said before in his shoes I'd have done the same thing but I wouldn't have gone to Cerberus for help.

Udina's response was based on emotion rather than reason. What could he have done if the Asari had placed their fleet at Hackett's disposal? A counter-offensive at that stage in the war would have been doomed to be defeated in detail. Earth could not be retaken even if all of the Big 3 (Turians, Asari, Salarians) had supplied their entire remaining fleets for the effort.

Dublin omega 223 wrote...

Maybe the Quarians are to blame but the Geth stll wiped out innocent Quarian men, women and children, even if it was in self defence. That is in no way justifable.

The Geth were fighting for their survival and did what any organic species would have done in their place. In the end the Morning War may have been a war with no true 'good guys,' but the Quarians come out of it looking worse. It was a war entirely of their own making.

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Seeing as Council Law basically says 'shoot all Synthetics on sight', they don't really have the right to complain if the Quarians try to uphold that law but get their asses kicked in the process, do they?

No, but they also had no duty to intervene on the Quarian's behalf.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 septembre 2013 - 08:31 .

[Fixers0]

As far as I'm concerend the new council rules with one voice only: Humanity!

[TheMyron]

A galactic Republic with a basic Constitution would be better than a democracy.

With the exception of Udina, none of the Councilors seem to be "bought out", they're just more concerned with the fate of their own species first. The Volus, on the other hand, have only one obvious interest, Money. Would it really be wise to give them a spot on the Council?

While you guys are all concerned with the Asari and their hiding of a Prothean beacon, isn't anyone concerned with the Salarians and their plans to uplift the Yahg? And upgrade the Varren into a makeshift bio-weapon?

[The Night Mammoth]

Fixers0 wrote...

As far as I'm concerend the new council rules with one voice only: Humanity!

That's a truly frightening prospect.

[RZIBARA]

Br3ad wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Geth.. Well, they would have both the military, population and financial assets with their strong economy if they want to be part of the greater galactic community.

Becomming an imporant partner in the galactic community would be strategicaly beneficial and ensure their future survival should the others allow it.

No. A  galaxy where the geth have more power than most species is not a galaxy that I want to live in. It sounds awful. 

Javik needs a seat on the Counil. Javik needs to be the Council.

YES

[RZIBARA]

OT: None.

The council should remain the way it was.

[Fixers0]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
That's a truly frightening prospect.

But it is his will.