516 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

I'm not here to start another Templars vs Mages war, I see boths sides and their reasons. My main issue here is the way of storytelling.
It seems to me that ever since DA2 the Bioware have forgotten how to draw conflicts in grey shades. Mind you, they were never really good at it but in ME they did manage to make conflicts such as the Krogan Rebellions, Geth vs Quarians and even the Reapers (eh, to some extent) more or less difficult. In DA:O there were the dwarf king choosing part, the elves vs werewolves, demons vs spirits etc.
But ever since DA2 I've kind of given up on any well-written conflict in DA universe. The Asunder only made it worse.

The biggest problem and my biggest worry with DA:I is how they will handle this conflict further.
Now, this is not time to angrily write here that teh templars are eeeeviiiil and one thousand reasons you hate them. I don't care, it doesn't matter. Im' talking about the way this conflict was presented, not who's right or wrong. If they ever make any side purely evil, they'll pretty much fail at wiriting a complex, realistic conflict. No best-story-award for them no matter how pretty nugs will look.

Remember the blind templar who sacrified himself to destroy the evil spirits, Gregor, who was strict but just for the most part, the Lotherings templars who were the only force keeping order and peace in the forgotten village? Remember them being just guys who followed rules and did their job? Nope, they are no more. Now they are Bad Guys and Bioware seems to be keen on making them even more eeeviiil. For what sake so much retcon I wonder? If they were always like this I'd understand, but they weren't. Do we really need A Bad Evil Force in such a game anyway? Even the darkspawn got some interesting interpretation in DA:A. And these guys are classic Evil Monsters.
Did we have a difficult choice in DA2? No, we either chose side of a bunch of mages screwed up by Anders and Meredith, or a side of red lyrium addicted flying tyrant. This is not a choice, this is bs. This is not a conflict, only one side is shown as a sympathetic, the other one was pretty much turned crazy up to eleven. This is not how you write good conflicts.
The conflict was so unbalanced. so obviously good/bad, black/white it hurt, no self-respecting writer would be proud of this. Even frigging Voldemort, Archdemon, Corpheus, even demons and darkspawn have reasons to be "evil", to do what they do. Their nature, their past, their beliefs etc. And unlike DA2 emplars, they are not mere people yet they feel alive. 
I hope they don't repeat it in DA:I and manage to balance the conflict so the game will deserve AAA rating not just for pretty picture and gameplay, but also because of the dialogues, plot. storytelling and difficult morals choices.
And not lack of these.

[thats1evildude]

People sure worry a lot about the depiction of fictional organizations.

[Maria Caliban]

This isn't the best way to present criticism.

That said, I expect DA:I will be as 'morally grey' as DA:O when it comes to most humanoid factions.

[Cainhurst Crow]

How about we wait a little bit and find out?

[Magdalena11]

The templars aren't in and of themselves evil. When they perform actions like letting a mage die of neglect and covering it up afterward or threatening mages with tranquility for speaking up they become that way. There are some templars who are appalled at the abuses their cohorts have inflicted. I'll wait and see where this goes.

[Potato Cat]

I'm hoping the reasons and motivations behind the Red Templars is properly explored. Not just "Dwarves say no lyrium! Let's just get some of that crazy red stuff from Kirkwall. LOL". Personally, I want the faction to only appear if we as the Inquisitor force their hand. We block off their lyrium supply, we take major holdings and start to turn the public against them. But I don't think that'll happen.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Chari wrote...
The conflict was so unbalanced. so obviously good/bad, black/white it hurt, no self-respecting writer would be proud of this

What how that was black vs white that was black vs black because i want remind you that 99 % mages was crazy psychos or abominations when we seen very little what templars did. 

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Well in my opinion the DA2 mages pretty much went on the froop loop end of the sanity spectrum by the end of it, but they were the oppressed group so naturally get a lot more sympathy.

I'm going to guess... I doubt it. The fact that the bad guy templars in the demo were a subsect called the Red Templars who had themselves REALLY gone down the evil end suggests that there are more sympathetic templars as well.

There were good templars in DA2, Cullen, Thrask and even Carver are the ones that came to mind, it was just that the Kirkwall Templars as an organisation were seen as mage-hating villains. Given the fact that rising tensions between the two sides is no longer a problem in DAI since tensions... have risen... erm... we'll see sympathetic templars as well.

[Maria Caliban]

Elfman wrote...

I'm hoping the reasons and motivations behind the Red Templars is properly explored. Not just "Dwarves say no lyrium! Let's just get some of that crazy red stuff from Kirkwall. LOL". Personally, I want the faction to only appear if we as the Inquisitor force their hand. We block off their lyrium supply, we take major holdings and start to turn the public against them. But I don't think that'll happen.

We've known for two games now that lyrium is addictive. If the Templars can't get any through the Chantry, it's not surprising they'd seek an alternate source.

What's odd is the sudden preponderance of it and that they know exactly where to find it. Perhaps it's calling to them.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 septembre 2013 - 06:48 .

[Chari]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Chari wrote...
The conflict was so unbalanced. so obviously good/bad, black/white it hurt, no self-respecting writer would be proud of this

What how that was black vs white that was black vs black because i want remind you that 99 % mages was crazy psychos or abominations when we seen very little what templars did. 

Who according to DA2 all were driven to such ways by Templars and Tepmlrs only with few exceptions of magisters
I guess the writers themselves have forgotten the Tevinter and that to become an abomination and make a deal with a demon one doesn't need to be cornered. Just earn power, just be weak or naive or enter the Fade at wrong time and place. Or that they want us to forget us, hm? 
Though, I agree, in DA2 mages pretty much turned to blood magic and demons if you even glared at them

[Beerfish]

I dunno are all the mages going to be big bad evillll as well I wonder?

[PsychoBlonde]

I was going to say, nearly all the templars in both DA games to date have been pretty cool. Just Meredith, Mr. Final Solution and that one in Awakening who was all over Anders like white on rice to fill out the psycho ranks.

[philippe willaume]

i am pretty sure that both templat and mages will have nasty nasty faction.
after all from dragon age II, we know what happens when a templar is in contact of red lyrium.
(ie red lyriumsed templar is to templar what a bloodmage is to mages.)

and i am pretty sure that we will have nice lovely fluffy kitten loving mage and templar as well.
so there are no reasons to fret.

Phil
PS each time someone mentions a fluffy kitten a toggle burst into flame somewhere

Modifié par philippe willaume, 10 septembre 2013 - 07:02 .

[cjones91]

I'm sure there are good templars who did'nt want any part of this conflict,howver the extremist ones had all the power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Chari wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Chari wrote...
The conflict was so unbalanced. so obviously good/bad, black/white it hurt, no self-respecting writer would be proud of this

What how that was black vs white that was black vs black because i want remind you that 99 % mages was crazy psychos or abominations when we seen very little what templars did. 

Who according to DA2 all were driven to such ways by Templars and Tepmlrs only with few exceptions of magisters
I guess the writers themselves have forgotten the Tevinter and that to become an abomination and make a deal with a demon one doesn't need to be cornered. Just earn power, just be weak or naive or enter the Fade at wrong time and place. Or that they want us to forget us, hm? 
Though, I agree, in DA2 mages pretty much turned to blood magic and demons if you even glared at them

Half tousand of mages i slained and were cultist , crazy apostates or blood mages (as well many in main plot) and don't need templars to be crazy also another 100 in denerim and ferelden and that most problems in da are mages fault dalish plot in first game , redcliffe ,blight ,mage tower.Any reason someone should support mages?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 10 septembre 2013 - 07:03 .

[Potato Cat]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Elfman wrote...

I'm hoping the reasons and motivations behind the Red Templars is properly explored. Not just "Dwarves say no lyrium! Let's just get some of that crazy red stuff from Kirkwall. LOL". Personally, I want the faction to only appear if we as the Inquisitor force their hand. We block off their lyrium supply, we take major holdings and start to turn the public against them. But I don't think that'll happen.

We've known for two games now that lyrium is addictive. If the Templars can't get any through the Chantry, it's not surprising they'd seek an alternate source.

What's odd is the sudden preponderance of it and that they know exactly where to find it. Perhaps it's calling to them.

I just feel its an easy way to create an "evil" faction we won't want to join unless we ourselves are monsters. Make the most monstrous and "evil" a little more sympathetic.

[cjones91]

Elfman wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Elfman wrote...

I'm hoping the reasons and motivations behind the Red Templars is properly explored. Not just "Dwarves say no lyrium! Let's just get some of that crazy red stuff from Kirkwall. LOL". Personally, I want the faction to only appear if we as the Inquisitor force their hand. We block off their lyrium supply, we take major holdings and start to turn the public against them. But I don't think that'll happen.

We've known for two games now that lyrium is addictive. If the Templars can't get any through the Chantry, it's not surprising they'd seek an alternate source.

What's odd is the sudden preponderance of it and that they know exactly where to find it. Perhaps it's calling to them.

I just feel its an easy way to create an "evil" faction we won't want to join unless we ourselves are monsters. Make the most monstrous and "evil" a little more sympathetic.

Well,what do you think would happen when a bunch of crazed lyrium addicted zealots are running around after they cut off their supplier?

[Potato Cat]

cjones91 wrote...
Well,what do you think would happen when a bunch of crazed lyrium addicted zealots are running around after they cut off their supplier?

That's not my point. My point is it immediately makes them into Thedas' Cerberus, whether we agree with their motives or not. I'm only asking we make them sympathetic to the audience in some small way.

[cjones91]

Elfman wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Well,what do you think would happen when a bunch of crazed lyrium addicted zealots are running around after they cut off their supplier?

That's not my point. My point is it immediately makes them into Thedas' Cerberus, whether we agree with their motives or not. I'm only asking we make them sympathetic to the audience in some small way.

A good to do that is to have the sane templars fight the Red Templars and the Inquisitor can help them out.

[PsychoBlonde]

philippe willaume wrote...

PS each time someone mentions a fluffy kitten a toggle burst into flame somewhere

lol, brilliant

[mopotter]

I'm hoping for 3 fractions that I can join in different games and some different endings to go with that.

Blood mages who hate templars, templars who hate all mages because they might be evil, and the group who knows that some mages are good, some templars are good and that group can work together. It's what I liked about Asunder, and yes, it would be my 1st play through choice but eventually I'd go blood mage and templar because they both have reasons for what they do too.

[Xilizhra]

Elfman wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Well,what do you think would happen when a bunch of crazed lyrium addicted zealots are running around after they cut off their supplier?

That's not my point. My point is it immediately makes them into Thedas' Cerberus, whether we agree with their motives or not. I'm only asking we make them sympathetic to the audience in some small way.

Well, they're addicts. Does that count?

In any case, some people probably agree with the Empire's motives in TOR as well; that doesn't mean we have to make them equivalent.

[Maria Caliban]

Elfman wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

We've known for two games now that lyrium is addictive. If the Templars can't get any through the Chantry, it's not surprising they'd seek an alternate source.

What's odd is the sudden preponderance of it and that they know exactly where to find it. Perhaps it's calling to them.

I just feel its an easy way to create an "evil" faction we won't want to join unless we ourselves are monsters. Make the most monstrous and "evil" a little more sympathetic.

I find addiction sympathetic, especially as it's the Chantry's doing.

[AresKeith]

Elfman wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Elfman wrote...

I'm hoping the reasons and motivations behind the Red Templars is properly explored. Not just "Dwarves say no lyrium! Let's just get some of that crazy red stuff from Kirkwall. LOL". Personally, I want the faction to only appear if we as the Inquisitor force their hand. We block off their lyrium supply, we take major holdings and start to turn the public against them. But I don't think that'll happen.

We've known for two games now that lyrium is addictive. If the Templars can't get any through the Chantry, it's not surprising they'd seek an alternate source.

What's odd is the sudden preponderance of it and that they know exactly where to find it. Perhaps it's calling to them.

I just feel its an easy way to create an "evil" faction we won't want to join unless we ourselves are monsters. Make the most monstrous and "evil" a little more sympathetic.

Well it was already stated that the Red Templars are a splinter group, so it's safe to say that they don't represent the entire Templar Order