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[Steelcan]

I don't think you quite understand my sense of humor Z

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

1. Indeed.

Which does make me wonder what this faction's response will be to the Inquisition, and if it will vary depending on the race of the protagonist.

Master Warder Z wrote...

2. And the Knight Commander didn't order an Anullment until Anders acted, She rejected the Tranquil solution, Things were bad in that city but it only spiraled to that point due to the actions of a lone nut.

It was still Meredith's choice to condemn hundreds to death for the actions of one man.

Master Warder Z wrote...

3. Eh it really depends, Because you can have as much of their attention as you want but them actually commiting resources away from the Mage front to assault what could or could not be a newly emerging threat seems like a remote occurance.

I think a mage having power and authority, which seems to be in direct violation of Chantry law, would draw some resources. This has never been properly addressed in the past, I admit - whether it's becoming the new Teyrn of Gwaren or the new Arl of Amaranthine. I would hope that isn't the case with Inquisition.

Master Warder Z wrote...

4.The Dalish claim it is a victor's history and that is their right to do so but you really would need to swallow a lot to fully accept their version.

The Dalish version is that human missionaries were kicked out of the Dales because the elves refused to convert to the Andrastian Chantry, and that templars were sent into the elven kingdom as a response. The elven Warden can condemn the Chantry of Andraste for this as well, even if the protagonist didn't come from the Sabrae clan. I don't find it hard to believe, even though we're not in a position to know the absolute truth. The Orlesian version, on the other hand, brings up dark rumors that seem to have no basis in fact, like human sacrifice to the Creators, and that the humans were completely blameless in the war.

Master Warder Z wrote...

5.I doubt that strongly considering you would need a great majority of tribes to merely reconqueor that land, to say nothing of holding it once a uniform threat presents it self, I am pretty sure Orlais would unite in face of invasion. That tends to happen a lot in History and Dragon age. You have the Tveinter and Normal Chantry uniting for the first time since their schism to fight the Qunari.

If the Fifth Blight has taught us anything, it's that even in the face of annihilation by the darkspawn, people can be distracted by their own infighting. I can imagine Celene and Gaspard continuing their civil war, and figuring they can deal with the Dales once they have achieved victory over the other. It's not like the rest of Thedas is in a position to help, with the veil tears and the Mage-Templar War. It's a hypothetical, of course, but one I think is possible, especially with the rumors of elven rebellion in the Dales (that we hear about in Asunder and the upcoming novel, which seems to address that the elves will play a prominent role in the story).

Master Warder Z wrote...

You likely would have the Nobility putting their squabling aside until the elves were defeated.

Origins showed us that the opposite is just as likely, since the civil war in Ferelden didn't end until the Landsmeet took place a year later.

Master Warder Z wrote...

That said i wouldn't be against that occuring to be honest, it would give me the chance to finally crush that minority into the dust of history. The Dalish have been a pain for two games now.

Indeed i think kicking that civilization into the grave once and for all could be a good event for DA3. 

I think that emancipating the kingdom of the Dales from Orlesian occupation would be ideal, personally. Since it seems that a Dalish mage is possible in Inquisition, and an elven rebellion is likely (even if it's simply speculation at the moment), I'd certainly side with the downtrodden elves over Celene or Gaspard.

1. Lambert's are by what i can gather from what limited interaction you between and his actual membership seem to be hardline Andrastians. One of their principle reasons for leaving the Chantry was because the Chantry broke the convent formed with the Order of Seekers ages ago, So you likely wouldn't be on very decent terms with them unless if you bought into the Maker and such.

The other Faction? Well its a Breakway and there is jack known about them so i won't even speculate.

2. So you don't think a Mage assault upon the Chantry qualifies for the usage of the rite? Well thats debatable certainly but not really the point of this thread.

3. The Seekers don't give a fig about what the Chantry wants anymore at least as far as Lambert's faction goes. They likely would seek Alliances in places the Chantry wouldn't dream off to combat the Mages, That said i would assume most elves would align with the Mages considering the Seekers and thus the Templars are warring against mages as whole, regardless of race. 

4. Its an event from centuries ago with very little solid and confirmed backstory within it; That said it wouldn't surprise me if both versions contained within them some version of the truth or another. I just tend to lean more so to the Chantry's Version considering that the Dales as a Provinece existed for centuries, I truely doubt the Chantry would move against something formed in the Ancient Period just for the heck of it. 

5. The Fifth Blight was revolving around Fereldan's Politics which are fairly unique within Thedas as most people would tell you. You don't have a billion and a half minor lordlings spread across the country that need to be brought together to form an army here, You have an ongoing civil war but both factions basically want the samething, This isn't like the Revolt against Logain in the regards that its a succession issue.

You have a Party wishing to seize power and a party trying to remain within power; But the thing of it is unlike what occured within the Fifth Blight you also have the clear and defined reasoning behind the conflict, control of the Empire. If the Empire is embattled and assaulted you have the risk of a multi front war, for the mere sake of practicality i could see a temporary truce drawn up.

6. Eh just a differing idea, personally i am not a fan of the ancient elves and thus their off shoots but that is merely a personal interpretation and opinion.

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

I don't think you quite understand my sense of humor Z

In my expreince i have found it difficult to tell what is sarcasm and what is not upon a screen.

Perhaps its a personal failing.

[Steelcan]

Unless we are talking Cerberus, ME lore, or how awful asari are chances are I am not being serious.

[RazorrX]

The chantry moved against the dales because they Dalish did not want to convert and ran them out. They sent Templars in to protect their missionaries. This led to skirmishes, yet the chantry by itself could not do anything.

Then came the second blight. A human city of Montsimmard is destroyed by the blight as the elven army watched from nearby and did nothing (1:25). The second blight does not end until 1:95. In 2:5 tensions between humans (chantry) and elves has built up to a boiling point, people blame the elves for not fighting to save Montsimmard. The Elves attack an Orlesian town called Red Crossing (this is claimed by the Elves to have everything to do with the chantry trying to force them to convert). Orlais goes to war with the elves, but can not beat them on its own.

in 2:10 the elves Capture Montsimmard and are marching toward Val Royeaus. The chantry calls for a holy war against the Elves and begins the Exalted March on the Dales. It takes 10 more years for the Exalted March to finally defeat the Dalish.

That is the history according to the collectors Edition guide for DA2.

[Auintus]

I hardly think a rogue mage destroying a Chantry is just cause for Annuling the city's Circle. Had Anders been part of the Circle...still no. One man's action is not a reason to kill unassociated individuals.

[Auintus]

I liked Greagoir. He knew when the Right of Annulment was necessary. That is, the entire freaking Circle has gone to hell. Without the Warden, it was done for. He was a little more "magic is a curse" than my preference,but otherwise he was reasonable and able to accept when it was redeemable.
In DAO, the templars seemed a lot like the Wardens. They could and would do terrible things to protect the many, but hold on to their humanity at the same time. Hell, the templar at the door in the mage origin took all my idiotic questions with nothing more than a little snark. They had jobs, but they were human.
Come DA2 and almost every templar, Cullen being the notable exception, was terrible(Aldrik), completely irrational (Meredith), or completely subservient to a madwoman(damn near everybody else).

I could see lack of lyrium having dulled most of their sensibilities as of DA:I, but I really hope they all aren't portrayed as religious zealots.

[Lord Raijin]

Mr.House wrote...

And people wonder why Carver get's pissy, it's because of people like this.

Carver gets pissy because nobody is giving him any attention. Hes resentful that hes not the shiny gold star of the family.

and....

[Master Warder Z_]

RazorrX wrote...

The chantry moved against the dales because they Dalish did not want to convert and ran them out. They sent Templars in to protect their missionaries. This led to skirmishes, yet the chantry by itself could not do anything.

Then came the second blight. A human city of Montsimmard is destroyed by the blight as the elven army watched from nearby and did nothing (1:25). The second blight does not end until 1:95. In 2:5 tensions between humans (chantry) and elves has built up to a boiling point, people blame the elves for not fighting to save Montsimmard. The Elves attack an Orlesian town called Red Crossing (this is claimed by the Elves to have everything to do with the chantry trying to force them to convert). Orlais goes to war with the elves, but can not beat them on its own.

in 2:10 the elves Capture Montsimmard and are marching toward Val Royeaus. The chantry calls for a holy war against the Elves and begins the Exalted March on the Dales. It takes 10 more years for the Exalted March to finally defeat the Dalish.

That is the history according to the collectors Edition guide for DA2.

It seems mostly right from what i can recall but as far as i am aware it was merely the Orlais warring against the Dales.

However the moment the exalted march was called and the Faithful began coming the Dales were doomed.

http://images.wikia....alted_March.jpg

That said i do sort of get what Orlais wouldn't tolerate those who wouldn't face the threat against Thedas posed from the blight, espeically so considering that the Dalish swore an oath to do so back when they were a Nation to the Wardens.

Ignoring that they didn't fight in the battle to save the world, Their destruction of human settlements and murdering their settlers around them seems nearly paltry no?

It was a war of faith, but i can see some justification in doing so; Though following war with more war does seem slightly odd to me.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 12 septembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[LobselVith8]

I'm not surprised the elves of the Dales didn't aid the Orlesian Empire when they were conquering their neighbors, and were prevented from expanding into the Free Marches because of their issues with the Dales. Why aid a nation that threatens your way of life and your people?

Both versions differ. The elves attacking Red Crossing could have been in response to templars invading their sovereign territory. The Dalish and the elven Warden can blame the Chantry for starting the war because the elves wouldn't convert, so I suppose the different viewpoints on the historical account will continue to divide people - here and in Thedas.

Also, the treaty seems to be with the Dalish clans, not the kingdom of the Dales.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not surprised the elves of the Dales didn't aid the Orlesian Empire when they were conquering their neighbors, and were prevented from expanding into the Free Marches because of their issues with the Dales. Why aid a nation that threatens your way of life and your people?

Both versions differ. The elves attacking Red Crossing could have been in response to templars invading their sovereign territory. The Dalish and the elven Warden can blame the Chantry for starting the war because the elves wouldn't convert, so I suppose the different viewpoints on the historical account will continue to divide people - here and in Thedas.

Also, the treaty seems to be with the Dalish clans, not the kingdom of the Dales.

*Shrug*

I tend to believe the most valid accounts and ones that don't force me to entirely rely upon speculation and my own opinions of events. What is known is that the Dales invaded Orlais and attempted to besiege the capital, Even if it was a move towards avenging some sort of Orlaisian Slight that doesn't make up for the fact they took a border skirmish and basically declared all out war.

Their destruction as far as i have been able to tell was done mostly by their own egostism, arrogance and snobbish sense of cultural superiority. 

And Personally? I find the conversation between Fenris and the Dalish within DA 2 to be immensely entertaining. 

He has the right of it, Forget the dust and bones and move on its been centuries.

That said abandoning Thedas as they did during the blight is unforgivable to me.

That is the one time when all petty political and racial disagreements need to cease.

[Steelcan]

I don't care for the Dalish either

[Dasaed]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

She was a Templar, Templar's are addicted to lyrium, she couldn't resist buying something made from lyrium.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Know there was an Exalted March on the Dales to end the war and we know the Divine didn't call for it until the elves had captured Montsimmard and were about to sack Val Royeaux. We don't know who started the initial war between the Dales and Orlais. It's possible that neither side started it alone. I think the earliest descriptions of the conflict say there were "border skirmishes."

Abandoning humans to die at the hands of darkspawn is pretty unforgivable though. The Orlesian Empire saved the Free Marches and the Anderfels from the Blight and the elves didn't even bother to help a nearby city. If they thought that Drakon conquering neighboring city states was not only a greater enemy than the darkspawn horde but that the people of Orlais deserved to die for it, then they had some seriously racist and messed up priorities. The world was in the middle of a Blight! Orlais was not interested in attacking anyone with Zazikel rampaging across Thedas. Drakon even sent his armies to save the Grey Wardens instead of expanding into the crumbling Imperium when he had the chance.

I should also point out that the wiki that mentions that Drakon being unable to expand into the Free Marches says it was because of "pressure from the Dales." Which actually phrases it like the elves were the ones that were a threat to Orlesian territory.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 septembre 2013 - 01:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

*Shrug*

I tend to believe the most valid accounts and ones that don't force me to entirely rely upon speculation and my own opinions of events. What is known is that the Dales invaded Orlais and attempted to besiege the capital, Even if it was a move towards avenging some sort of Orlaisian Slight that doesn't make up for the fact they took a border skirmish and basically declared all out war.

A templar invasion of elven sovereignty to force conversion to the Chantry of Andraste is more than a mere "skirmish".

Master Warder Z wrote...

Their destruction as far as i have been able to tell was done mostly by their own egostism, arrogance and snobbish sense of cultural superiority.

That sounds a lot like Andrastian society.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And Personally? I find the conversation between Fenris and the Dalish within DA 2 to be immensely entertaining.

I dislike the attitude some of them hold towards non-Dalish elves.

Master Warder Z wrote...

He has the right of it, Forget the dust and bones and move on its been centuries.

I see no reason for the Dalish to abandon their heritage, religion, or goal of having their own homeland.

Master Warder Z wrote...

That said abandoning Thedas as they did during the blight is unforgivable to me.

That is the one time when all petty political and racial disagreements need to cease. 

The Dalish didn't abandon Thedas. A clan fought darkspawn in the Anderfels. All we know is that the Dalish didn't aid Orlais.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Tale of Iloren is pretty suspect codex entry. There are several things about it that do not match what we know about Thedosian history at all. I suspect that either it's made up or there is some error in or out of universe when it was being written. My theroy is that if it is true, it might actually be about another blight.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 septembre 2013 - 01:41 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Know there was an Exalted March on the Dales to end the war and we know the Divine didn't call for it until the elves had captured Montsimmard and were about to sack Val Royeaux. We don't know how started the initial war between the Dales and Orlais. It's possible that neither side started it alone. I think the earliest descriptions of the conflict say there were "border skirmishes."

Abandoning humans to die at the hands of darkspawn is pretty unforgivable though. The Orlesian Empire saved the Free Marches and the Anderfels from the Blight and the elves didn't even bother to help a nearby city. If they thought that Drakon conquering neighboring city states was not only a greater enemy than the darkspawn horde but that the people of Orlais deserved to die for it, then they had some seriously racist and messed up priorities. The world was in the middle of a Blight! Orlais was not interested in attacking anyone with Zazikel rampaging across Thedas. Drakon even sent his armies to save the Grey Wardens instead of expanding into the crumbling Imperium when he had the chance.

I should also point out that the wiki that mentions that Drakon being unable to expand into the Free Marches says it was because of "pressure from the Dales." Which actually phrases it like the elves were the ones that were a threat to Orlesian territory.

The Orlaisian Empire, the Chantry, Its all given a bad look by recent events, but the lore, the history of the Universe? It supports them, it paints them as champions of Humanity. And they are.

And Indeed and yet the elven defenders forget that History is on the side of Orlais as far as Moral High Ground here.

Their Vengence was horrible, their Wrath brutual but no more so then what the Dales did by ignoring the advancing horde of Darkspawn. Orlais spent a fortune fighting back the Hordes in lands that while it did desire it still liberated from the pure essence of non sentient evil.

If you cannot lift a finger to help your neighbor little lone the world during the end times then your either callous or bigoted to a level that makes the Aryan Monolithism spewed by Hitler look tame or you extremely deludeded. 

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Know there was an Exalted March on the Dales to end the war and we know the Divine didn't call for it until the elves had captured Montsimmard and were about to sack Val Royeaux. We don't know how started the initial war between the Dales and Orlais. It's possible that neither side started it alone. I think the earliest descriptions of the conflict say there were "border skirmishes."

Abandoning humans to die at the hands of darkspawn is pretty unforgivable though. The Orlesian Empire saved the Free Marches and the Anderfels from the Blight and the elves didn't even bother to help a nearby city. If they thought that Drakon conquering neighboring city states was not only a greater enemy than the darkspawn horde but that the people of Orlais deserved to die for it, then they had some seriously racist and messed up priorities. The world was in the middle of a Blight! Orlais was not interested in attacking anyone with Zazikel rampaging across Thedas. Drakon even sent his armies to save the Grey Wardens instead of expanding into the crumbling Imperium when he had the chance.

 

While the Anderfels became part of the Orlesian Empire as a consequence, and the Wardens became associated with the Chantry of Andraste created by Drakon at this period in time.

Frankly, I don't see the elves are villains for refusing to aid an imperialist empire that threatened their culture, religious freedom, and existence.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I should also point out that the wiki that mentions that Drakon being unable to expand into the Free Marches says it was because of "pressure from the Dales." Which actually phrases it like the elves were the ones that were a threat to Orlesian territory.

The Orlesian Empire was created by Drakon invading his neighbors and instituting his Cult of the Maker as the national religion. Orlais was a conquering nation. If the Orlesian Empire couldn't invade the north because of the issue with the south, it doesn't make the south seem like the aggressor. And Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden demonstrate the continuing history of Orlais invading other nations.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Know there was an Exalted March on the Dales to end the war and we know the Divine didn't call for it until the elves had captured Montsimmard and were about to sack Val Royeaux. We don't know how started the initial war between the Dales and Orlais. It's possible that neither side started it alone. I think the earliest descriptions of the conflict say there were "border skirmishes."

Abandoning humans to die at the hands of darkspawn is pretty unforgivable though. The Orlesian Empire saved the Free Marches and the Anderfels from the Blight and the elves didn't even bother to help a nearby city. If they thought that Drakon conquering neighboring city states was not only a greater enemy than the darkspawn horde but that the people of Orlais deserved to die for it, then they had some seriously racist and messed up priorities. The world was in the middle of a Blight! Orlais was not interested in attacking anyone with Zazikel rampaging across Thedas. Drakon even sent his armies to save the Grey Wardens instead of expanding into the crumbling Imperium when he had the chance.

 

While the Anderfels became part of the Orlesian Empire as a consequence, and the Wardens became associated with the Chantry of Andraste created by Drakon at this period in time.

Frankly, I don't see the elves are villains for refusing to aid an imperialist empire that threatened their culture, religious freedom, and existence.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I should also point out that the wiki that mentions that Drakon being unable to expand into the Free Marches says it was because of "pressure from the Dales." Which actually phrases it like the elves were the ones that were a threat to Orlesian territory.

The Orlesian Empire was created by Drakon invading his neighbors and instituting his Cult of the Maker as the national religion. Orlais was a conquering nation. If the Orlesian Empire couldn't invade the north because of the issue with the south, it doesn't make the south seem like the aggressor. And Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden demonstrate the continuing history of Orlais invading other nations.

The World is besieged by its greatest threat to continued existance and you think it a viable excuse to not aid in defeating it because of political and religious diffrences? You think it's understandable to not do anything while its destroying people that you could easily save but choose not, not because of risk presented or that it was outside your means but because of religious diffrences?

I can understand that sort of logic i suppose but i prefer continued existance to holding on to petty political notions when the world burns around you.

The Blight is a cause that should be fought by all; There is no excuse for not answering that call.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 12 septembre 2013 - 02:01 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Tale of Iloren is pretty suspect codex entry. There are several things about it that do not match what we know about Thedosian history at all. I suspect that either it's made up or there is some error in or out of universe when it was being written. My theroy is that if it is true, it might actually be about another blight.

Considering that not all the elves were residing in the kingdom of the Dales, I don't see the issue.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And Indeed and yet the elven defenders forget that History is on the side of Orlais as far as Moral High Ground here. 

Orlais claiming that the Dalish instigated the war doesn't make it so, and their historical account isn't the only one.

Master Warder Z wrote...

If you cannot lift a finger to help your neighbor little lone the world during the end times then your either callous or bigoted to a level that makes the Aryan Monolithism spewed by Hitler look tame or you extremely deludeded. 

Orlais is not "the world", and their neighbor was a conquering empire that conquered and converted their other neighbors. And you realize the Grey Wardens have to drag other nations into participating in the Blights, right? That's clearly evident in the historical accounts.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Anderfels became part of the Orlesian Empire as a consequence, and the Wardens became associated with the Chantry of Andraste created by Drakon at this period in time.

Frankly, I don't see the elves are villains for refusing to aid an imperialist empire that threatened their culture, religious freedom, and existence.

I do. Especially since at the time Drakon had only conquered the nearby city states that would form the nation of Orlais. During a Blight everyone is at risk, everyone must work together. Whatever problem they may have with Orlais is no longer important when a darkspawn horde is ravaging the world. Orlais was not going to attack them during a Blight. And most importantly the population of Montsimmard didn't deserve to die, regardless of what Drakon's policy was or was not. But it's even worse considering his main priority in foreign policy was saving lives from darkspawn.

It's especially ironic considering you seem to see the Orlesians as villians for saving the Anders from total destruction. It's not mentioned anywhere the Grey Wardens or the Anderfels were forceibly converted to Andrastianism, there was no need. I don't think it's any different with the Anderfels joining the Orlesian Empire, they were already angry at Tevinter for abandoning them to the darkspawn.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I should also point out that the wiki that mentions that Drakon being unable to expand into the Free Marches says it was because of "pressure from the Dales." Which actually phrases it like the elves were the ones that were a threat to Orlesian territory.

The Orlesian Empire was created by Drakon invading his neighbors and instituting his Cult of the Maker as the national religion. Orlais was a conquering nation. If the Orlesian Empire couldn't invade the north because of the issue with the south, it doesn't make the south seem like the aggressor. And Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden demonstrate the continuing history of Orlais invading other nations.

"Issues" with the south? Do you know what the issues were? Does it say anywhere? Dragon Age wiki is the only place to mention that dynamic and it says:

"His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east."

That makes it sound like they were looking to take his territory more than he was theirs. I think I read somewhere that most of the terriroty of the Dales is actually pretty barren except for on the coast. Orlais is hardly the only nation to want to expand it's borders by force in the history of Thedas. A nation of elves wouln't be immune to this desire. And considering that during the war with Orlais they captured an important Orlesian city, there might even be something to that. Of course we have no information on the objectives and strategies of the elven commanders during the war.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:12 .

[The Hierophant]

Not aiding Orlais is tactically stupid no matter the excuse. The darkspawn don't care about race, nationality, politics or religion which makes them a threat to everyone. All the Dalish did was allow them to kidnap, and rape countless women until they were transformed into Broodmothers who would then birth thousands of darkspawn and prolong the conflict.

Plus aiding Orlais when it was down would have gone a long way in forging a strong alliance with a rising powerhouse.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Eh, no real matter. Orlais will fall and the Dalish will rise again if I have anything to say about it. I'd rather get Arlathan back, but the Dales will be a decent second prize for the time being.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

It's especially ironic considering you seem to see the Orlesians as villians for saving the Anders from total destruction. It's not mentioned anywhere the Grey Wardens or the Anderfels were forceibly converted to Andrastianism, there was no need. I don't think it's any different with the Anderfels joining the Orlesian Empire, they were already angry at Tevinter for abandoning them to the darkspawn. 

I pointed out that Drakon's actions benefited his empire. I don't view Orlais in the selfless light as you seem to. And the conversion comments were focused on how Drakon established his cult as the religion of his empire. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

That makes it sound like they were looking to take his territory more than he was theirs. I think I read somewhere that most of the terriroty of the Dales is actually pretty barren except for on the coast. Orlais is hardly the only nation to want to expand it's borders by force in the history of Thedas. A nation of elves wouln't be immune to this desire. And considering that during the war with Orlais they captured an important Orlesian city, there might even be something to that. Of course we have no information on the objectives and strategies of the elven commanders during the war. 

Actually, it makes it sound like the elves weren't capitulating to Orlesian expansion. And the elves were vilified for keeping their borders closed.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

It's especially ironic considering you seem to see the Orlesians as villians for saving the Anders from total destruction. It's not mentioned anywhere the Grey Wardens or the Anderfels were forceibly converted to Andrastianism, there was no need. I don't think it's any different with the Anderfels joining the Orlesian Empire, they were already angry at Tevinter for abandoning them to the darkspawn. 

I pointed out that Drakon's actions benefited his empire. I don't view Orlais in the selfless light as you seem to. And the conversion comments were focused on how Drakon established his cult as the religion of his empire. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

That makes it sound like they were looking to take his territory more than he was theirs. I think I read somewhere that most of the terriroty of the Dales is actually pretty barren except for on the coast. Orlais is hardly the only nation to want to expand it's borders by force in the history of Thedas. A nation of elves wouln't be immune to this desire. And considering that during the war with Orlais they captured an important Orlesian city, there might even be something to that. Of course we have no information on the objectives and strategies of the elven commanders during the war. 

Actually, it makes it sound like the elves weren't capitulating to Orlesian expansion. And the elves were vilified for keeping their borders closed.

Killing Darkspawn and stopping Blights aids every one just about equally.

And the Cowardly elves keeping their borders closed while the entire population of a city were killed, ghoulified or transformed is just about the same as killing the population themselves. And you answer expansion with expansion? The Dalish went to war not for personal greed but to be free? That sounds ever so slightly like a logical fallacy to me.

And this is really dragging the thread off topic it should end.