516 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Eh, no real matter. Orlais will fall and the Dalish will rise again if I have anything to say about it. I'd rather get Arlathan back, but the Dales will be a decent second prize for the time being.

And the resurgent Tevinter Imperium shall conquer Thedas  again:devil:

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Eh, no real matter. Orlais will fall and the Dalish will rise again if I have anything to say about it. I'd rather get Arlathan back, but the Dales will be a decent second prize for the time being.

And the resurgent Tevinter Imperium shall conquer Thedas  again:devil:

Wait a game, the qunari are still a problem.

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

Not aiding Orlais is tactically stupid no matter the excuse. The darkspawn don't care about race, nationality, politics or religion which makes them a threat to everyone. All the Dalish did was allow them to kidnap, and rape countless women until they were transformed into Broodmothers who would then birth thousands of darkspawn and prolong the conflict.

I think it's tactically stupid to help an enemy who threatens you. You and I can agree to disagree. Also, I didn't realize Orlais requested their aid. Probably because there's no indication that they did. And the elves watching could have been Emerald Knights, who were tasked with guarding the border.

The Hierophant wrote...

Plus aiding Orlais when it was down would have gone a long way in forging a strong alliance with rising powerhouse. 

Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden demonstrate otherwise.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:27 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

It's especially ironic considering you seem to see the Orlesians as villians for saving the Anders from total destruction. It's not mentioned anywhere the Grey Wardens or the Anderfels were forceibly converted to Andrastianism, there was no need. I don't think it's any different with the Anderfels joining the Orlesian Empire, they were already angry at Tevinter for abandoning them to the darkspawn. 

I pointed out that Drakon's actions benefited his empire. I don't view Orlais in the selfless light as you seem to. And the conversion comments were focused on how Drakon established his cult as the religion of his empire. 

They did benefit the Orlesian Empire (briefly) but they also benefited everyone else much more. And in truth Drakon could have easily expanded his territory without saving as mation peoples, nations and cities as he did. And ultimately, who cares? So what if he did save the Anderfels and the Free Marches for selfish reasons? He still saved as many lives as possible during a Blight, more so than really he probably could have been expected to. Nobody was going to prefer being destroyed by darkspawn to living under Orlesian rule. Orlesians aren't as bad as darkspawn.

Frankly, there is no way that letting people die for selfish reasons (like the Dales) is a morally superior stance than saving peoples lives for selfish reasons like Drakon.

I also believe the description of the conversions of the Grey Wardens and the Anders mentioned that they were so impressed and grateful for Drakon's assistence that they converted to the religion of his empire. The Chantry is not so bad that there influence being spread is inherently wrong even if it is done by saving the world from darkspawn.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:35 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Eh, no real matter. Orlais will fall and the Dalish will rise again if I have anything to say about it. I'd rather get Arlathan back, but the Dales will be a decent second prize for the time being.

And the resurgent Tevinter Imperium shall conquer Thedas  again:devil:

Wait a game, the qunari are still a problem.

Just have Anders tell them the recipe for gunpowder.  Gunpowder weapons with incredibly powerful blood mages?  Today Par Vollen, tomorrow, Thedas

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Killing Darkspawn and stopping Blights aids every one just about equally.

None of the surface nations care unless they are threatened. Just ask the dwarves.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And the Cowardly elves keeping their borders closed while the entire population of a city were killed, ghoulified or transformed is just about the same as killing the population themselves.

There is nothing cowardly about refusing to bend knee to the Chantry or the Orlesian Empire.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And you answer expansion with expansion? The Dalish went to war not for personal greed but to be free? That sounds ever so slightly like a logical fallacy to me. 

The Dalish (and possibly the elven Warden) say the Chantry invaded the Dales; the Dalish account specifies with templars. Retaliating against an invader isn't the same as starting a war.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

It's especially ironic considering you seem to see the Orlesians as villians for saving the Anders from total destruction. It's not mentioned anywhere the Grey Wardens or the Anderfels were forceibly converted to Andrastianism, there was no need. I don't think it's any different with the Anderfels joining the Orlesian Empire, they were already angry at Tevinter for abandoning them to the darkspawn. 

I pointed out that Drakon's actions benefited his empire. I don't view Orlais in the selfless light as you seem to. And the conversion comments were focused on how Drakon established his cult as the religion of his empire. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

That makes it sound like they were looking to take his territory more than he was theirs. I think I read somewhere that most of the terriroty of the Dales is actually pretty barren except for on the coast. Orlais is hardly the only nation to want to expand it's borders by force in the history of Thedas. A nation of elves wouln't be immune to this desire. And considering that during the war with Orlais they captured an important Orlesian city, there might even be something to that. Of course we have no information on the objectives and strategies of the elven commanders during the war. 

Actually, it makes it sound like the elves weren't capitulating to Orlesian expansion. And the elves were vilified for keeping their borders closed.

Killing Darkspawn and stopping Blights aids every one just about equally.

And the Cowardly elves keeping their borders closed while the entire population of a city were killed, ghoulified or transformed is just about the same as killing the population themselves. And you answer expansion with expansion? The Dalish went to war not for personal greed but to be free? That sounds ever so slightly like a logical fallacy to me.

And this is really dragging the thread off topic it should end.

Killing darkspawn aids dwarves mostly. After the fourth blight, almost everyone on the surface decided that darkspawn were extinct so they ignored the problem. And the darkspawn being a problem hasn't stopped humans from fighting one another before.

And why shouldn't the elves keep their borders closed? We know for a fact that the longer the elves live away from humans, the longer their lifespans become. And why wouldn't they fight to be free? They had been slaves of the Tevinters for a milennia.

I think the elven rebellion will be a significant plot-point. Some people may call them evil for establishing their own homeland and choosing to separate themselves from humans, especially when their closes human neighbor is a conquering and generally antagonistic neighbor that no on (besides the Chantry) likes. Ferelden, Nevarra, Rivain, none of these nations like Orlais after how Orlais treated them.

It's possible the elves simply saw it first, that or they were so isolationist that they didn't care. I personally believe that Orlais and the Chantry had the most to gain by starting a war, and I hold them in the greater fault.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Killing Darkspawn and stopping Blights aids every one just about equally.

None of the surface nations care unless they are threatened. Just ask the dwarves.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And the Cowardly elves keeping their borders closed while the entire population of a city were killed, ghoulified or transformed is just about the same as killing the population themselves.

There is nothing cowardly about refusing to bend knee to the Chantry or the Orlesian Empire.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And you answer expansion with expansion? The Dalish went to war not for personal greed but to be free? That sounds ever so slightly like a logical fallacy to me. 

The Dalish (and possibly the elven Warden) say the Chantry invaded the Dales; the Dalish account specifies with templars. Retaliating against an invader isn't the same as starting a war.

The Dwarves have a tough lot in life but its managable for the imediate future.

Not forever but for now.

And that said it still doesn't make up for them doing nothing, And it still somehow doesn't magically make it a moral choice.

And their is plenty cowardly about hiding in the woods while evil in a physical form is marching just across the border into settlements and razing them.

And the Dalish just happened to wait for the Darkspawn to be defeated? for Orlais to be overextended and recovering from a blight they had no part of? They kicked off that war freind, they saw a weakened Orlais and sought to expand their territory.

And they were ultimately destroyed by their own greed.

Again.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

It's especially ironic considering you seem to see the Orlesians as villians for saving the Anders from total destruction. It's not mentioned anywhere the Grey Wardens or the Anderfels were forceibly converted to Andrastianism, there was no need. I don't think it's any different with the Anderfels joining the Orlesian Empire, they were already angry at Tevinter for abandoning them to the darkspawn. 

I pointed out that Drakon's actions benefited his empire. I don't view Orlais in the selfless light as you seem to. And the conversion comments were focused on how Drakon established his cult as the religion of his empire. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote... 

That makes it sound like they were looking to take his territory more than he was theirs. I think I read somewhere that most of the terriroty of the Dales is actually pretty barren except for on the coast. Orlais is hardly the only nation to want to expand it's borders by force in the history of Thedas. A nation of elves wouln't be immune to this desire. And considering that during the war with Orlais they captured an important Orlesian city, there might even be something to that. Of course we have no information on the objectives and strategies of the elven commanders during the war. 

Actually, it makes it sound like the elves weren't capitulating to Orlesian expansion. And the elves were vilified for keeping their borders closed.

Killing Darkspawn and stopping Blights aids every one just about equally.

And the Cowardly elves keeping their borders closed while the entire population of a city were killed, ghoulified or transformed is just about the same as killing the population themselves. And you answer expansion with expansion? The Dalish went to war not for personal greed but to be free? That sounds ever so slightly like a logical fallacy to me.

And this is really dragging the thread off topic it should end.

Killing darkspawn aids dwarves mostly. After the fourth blight, almost everyone on the surface decided that darkspawn were extinct so they ignored the problem. And the darkspawn being a problem hasn't stopped humans from fighting one another before.

And why shouldn't the elves keep their borders closed? We know for a fact that the longer the elves live away from humans, the longer their lifespans become. And why wouldn't they fight to be free? They had been slaves of the Tevinters for a milennia.

I think the elven rebellion will be a significant plot-point. Some people may call them evil for establishing their own homeland and choosing to separate themselves from humans, especially when their closes human neighbor is a conquering and generally antagonistic neighbor that no on (besides the Chantry) likes. Ferelden, Nevarra, Rivain, none of these nations like Orlais after how Orlais treated them.

It's possible the elves simply saw it first, that or they were so isolationist that they didn't care. I personally believe that Orlais and the Chantry had the most to gain by starting a war, and I hold them in the greater fault.

Oh Yes the Empire that was recovering from a blight, fighting two seperate wars overseas and having inner termoil as a new faith was spread across its territory deliberately picked a fight in their own backyard over a bunch of worthless and sea acess they didn't need.

I view the Orlaisian side as a purely reactionary force, If those missionarys were expelled the Empire likely would react but not by marshalling an invasion just after fighting a blight. But that said if tempers did flare over the issue and people brought up how the elves left entire settlements to die within spitting distance of their own territory i suppose the situation could spiral out of control.

So i would lay the majority if not the ENTIRITY of the fault on the elves.

And thats exactly the selfishness i spoke of, You are placing the elves above Humans being assaulted by the greatest threat in Thesdas and doing nothing about it, And them claiming the elves were right to do so? I don't understand that logic personally but i suppose it could be valid for some one elses viewpoint.

I don't understand the Logic of placing elves above humans when it comes to the race that will kill both equally.

[RazorrX]

The Dales fought the darkspawn later, they did not help that one city. Most likely because it was an Orlesian city and Orlais WAS the chantry. The same people who were trying to convert them via force. The Blight continued for 70 more years.

Even Duncan says that the Dalish have ALWAYS served with distinction in the wardens. Garahel was a Dalish Elf (Slayer of the Archdemon in the 4th Blight).

[Xilizhra]

Why does this matter such a great deal? The Dalish are oppressed and impoverished, Orlais is run by evil expansionists. Kick one out, install the other.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this matter such a great deal? The Dalish are oppressed and impoverished, Orlais is run by evil expansionists. Kick one out, install the other.

Because this has never ever ever back fired?:whistle::whistle:

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Not aiding Orlais is tactically stupid no matter the excuse. The darkspawn don't care about race, nationality, politics or religion which makes them a threat to everyone. All the Dalish did was allow them to kidnap, and rape countless women until they were transformed into Broodmothers who would then birth thousands of darkspawn and prolong the conflict.

I think it's tactically stupid to help an enemy who threatens you. You and I can agree to disagree. Also, I didn't realize Orlais requested their aid. Probably because there's no indication that they did. And the elves watching could have been Emerald Knights, who were tasked with guarding the border.

Yes because allowing a city's worth of people especially the women to be ghoulified isn't stupid? Considering the darkspawn's destructive nature the Dalish were stupid.

By your logic you'd advocate turning a blind eye to the rebels and civilians of Syria being gassed by Assad because of their potential to create a terrorist state.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plus aiding Orlais when it was down would have gone a long way in forging a strong alliance with rising powerhouse. 

Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden demonstrate otherwise.

Orlais is a broken bird with a bleak outlook on friendship thanks to the Dalish's inaction during the second blight.
Nah, but if the Dalish aided Orlais when Drakon was alive he'd probably ensure that the alliance between their nations is maintained.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry did "invade" the Dales. But we know the Divine didn't call for the Exalted March until after the fall of Montsimmard. Before that it was a secular war between Orlais and the Dales. From an elven perspective, especially 600 years later, whether the Dales or Orlais started the war is probably beside the point. In simple terms, the shems granted them a nation and then their fanaticism and/or greed drove them to take it away. But for a human, it would simply be retaliation for their actions in carving up Orlesian territory and threatening the heart of the Chantry. Neither account is necessarily contradictory if you look at the broad strokes.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[Xilizhra]

By your logic you'd advocate turning a blind eye to the rebels and civilians of Syria being gassed by Assad because of their potential to create a terrorist state.

Well, try to arrange things so that the terrorists are getting gassed the most, if possible.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this matter such a great deal? The Dalish are oppressed and impoverished, Orlais is run by evil expansionists. Kick one out, install the other.

I'm hoping for the chance to liberate the Dales in Inquisition from Orlesian occupation. A homeland where they can be more than servants and slaves, where they can follow their religion without being threatened or killed.

[Master Warder Z_]

 The thread really should get back on topic.

[Xilizhra]

Master Warder Z wrote...

 The thread really should get back on topic.

How big a pile of templar helmets do you think can be made?

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

By your logic you'd advocate turning a blind eye to the rebels and civilians of Syria being gassed by Assad because of their potential to create a terrorist state.

Well, try to arrange things so that the terrorists are getting gassed the most, if possible.

Truly you are wise beyond comprehension

[Steelcan]

Oh crap, I just remembered, I'm actually on Xil's side for Mage/Templar

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this matter such a great deal? The Dalish are oppressed and impoverished, Orlais is run by evil expansionists. Kick one out, install the other.

Because this has never ever ever back fired?:whistle::whistle:

Indeed apparently some of these Dalish supporters don't realize that path has been walked many times before in history.

It generally ends with ethnic purges, dictatorships and religious fanatism.

[Master Warder Z_]

Xilizhra wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

 The thread really should get back on topic.

How big a pile of templar helmets do you think can be made?

Not as large as mass graves that will be dug for the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this matter such a great deal? The Dalish are oppressed and impoverished, Orlais is run by evil expansionists. Kick one out, install the other.

Because this has never ever ever back fired?:whistle::whistle:

Indeed apparently some of these Dalish supporters don't realize that path has been walked many times before in history.

It generally ends with ethnic purges, dictatorships and religious fanatism.

In other words, no worse than what we've got already?

Not as large as mass graves that will be dug for the mages.

You're a silly panda.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

By your logic you'd advocate turning a blind eye to the rebels and civilians of Syria being gassed by Assad because of their potential to create a terrorist state.

Well, try to arrange things so that the terrorists are getting gassed the most, if possible.

With nerve gas? lol ok.

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

Oh crap, I just remembered, I'm actually on Xil's side for Mage/Templar

Wait what?!

Really?

...I thought you were more reasonble and enlightened.

Not one of those, thedas would be better off with out templars, circles and the chantry folks.