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Are the Templars going to be Big Bad EEVIIL again?


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#476
Xilizhra

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hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

You only get sympathetic Meredith dialog if you are staunchly pro-templar. So it shouldn't be a surprise that most pro-magers don't know it exists


For some of us, her backstory and her occassional moments of humanity doesn't excuse her monstrous behavior.


Morocco's and Lotion's were talking about the assumlption that Meredith hates mages. Regardless if you think that she was a monstrous tyrant or not, she didn't hate mages.

What she does feel, which is basically horrendously abusive parenthood, is no better.

And the backstory and occasional moments of humanity excuses the monstrous behavior of the mages?

Most mages don't have any monstrous behavior, so we're fine on that.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 septembre 2013 - 03:16 .


#477
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Most mages don't have any monstrous behavior, so we're fine on that.


DA2 and its overabundance of mustache twirling bloodmages disagrees my friend.

#478
Xilizhra

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Most mages don't have any monstrous behavior, so we're fine on that.


DA2 and its overabundance of mustache twirling bloodmages disagrees my friend.

A number greatly exaggerated. There were two in the first act, none in the second, and... an arguable number in the third, as I suspect Grace was possessed the whole time. That'd leave Huon as the only prominent one, along with the scattered bloodragers.

#479
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A number greatly exaggerated. There were two in the first act, none in the second, and... an arguable number in the third, as I suspect Grace was possessed the whole time. That'd leave Huon as the only prominent one, along with the scattered bloodragers.


Hmm. So let me see. There were certainly more in act one. An entire group raising the dead, even. So that is certainly more than two.

Hmm...

Act 2 has the bloodmage that murders your mother and his apprentice. Probably more that I am forgetting.

Act 3 has so many bloodmages that if you throw a rock in Kirkwall you'd probably hit seven.

I believe your numbers are off my friend.

edit: There is also Merril.

Modifié par Morocco Mole, 12 septembre 2013 - 03:30 .


#480
addiction21

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Morocco Mole wrote...


For some of us, her backstory and her occassional moments of humanity doesn't excuse her monstrous behavior.


And the backstory and occasional moments of humanity excuses the monstrous behavior of the mages?


Of course it does or did you forget who you are speaking with?

#481
Xilizhra

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Hmm. So let me see. There were certainly more in act one. An entire group raising the dead, even. So that is certainly more than two.

You stipulated "mustache-twirling." Only Idunna and Tahrone behave in that manner.

Act 2 has the bloodmage that murders your mother and his apprentice. Probably more that I am forgetting.

No, just him.

Act 3 has so many bloodmages that if you throw a rock in Kirkwall you'd probably hit seven.

Again, "mustache-twirling."

#482
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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But they are all evil for evil's sake. That is mustache twirling my friend.

#483
Xilizhra

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Morocco Mole wrote...

But they are all evil for evil's sake. That is mustache twirling my friend.

The ones I mentioned, maybe. Others, no.

#484
dragonflight288

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Please note that Hawke faces those blood mages over the course of seven years. My Warden faced far more traveling an entire country during a blight, but Hawke faced what....6 or 7 total in 5 years in Kirkwall, and the number only increased dramatically after Meredith took charge?

The blood mage problem wasn't that dire before Dumar's death in-game. Kirkwall had a much bigger problem from bandits and Tevinter slavers than they did mages running amok, not to mention the tensions with the Qunari and the Chantry interfering with them.

#485
LobselVith8

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Morocco Mole wrote...

For some of us, her backstory and her occassional moments of humanity doesn't excuse her monstrous behavior.


And the backstory and occasional moments of humanity excuses the monstrous behavior of the mages?


I would say the behavior of some mages shouldn't condemn all of them. No one thinks there aren't any bad mages, but some of us don't condemn an entire race of people simply because some of them engage in criminal behavior. For example, the actions of one mage (Anders) shouldn't condemn hundreds to death who are innocent of the actions of this former Grey Warden.

#486
Hazegurl

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Morocco Mole wrote...

For some of us, her backstory and her occassional moments of humanity doesn't excuse her monstrous behavior.


And the backstory and occasional moments of humanity excuses the monstrous behavior of the mages?


Hey now! We all know mages are incapable of monstrous behavior.  :P

#487
dragonflight288

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Hazegurl wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

For some of us, her backstory and her occassional moments of humanity doesn't excuse her monstrous behavior.


And the backstory and occasional moments of humanity excuses the monstrous behavior of the mages?


Hey now! We all know mages are incapable of monstrous behavior.  :P


As are organized military orders with drug addictions and religious zealotry. :D

#488
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I would say the behavior of some mages shouldn't condemn all of them. No one thinks there aren't any bad mages, but some of us don't condemn an entire race of people simply because some of them engage in criminal behavior. For example, the actions of one mage (Anders) shouldn't condemn hundreds to death who are innocent of the actions of this former Grey Warden.


You are aware that I could switch out mage for templar and this would still make sense are you?

#489
Taleroth

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Morocco Mole wrote...

I would say the behavior of some mages shouldn't condemn all of them. No one thinks there aren't any bad mages, but some of us don't condemn an entire race of people simply because some of them engage in criminal behavior. For example, the actions of one mage (Anders) shouldn't condemn hundreds to death who are innocent of the actions of this former Grey Warden.


You are aware that I could switch out mage for templar and this would still make sense are you?

I'm not sure who's going around talking about locking all the Templars away or killing them.

#490
Xilizhra

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You are aware that I could switch out mage for templar and this would still make sense are you?

And if there are templars who won't try to levy war against the mages, that's all well and good. They're free to leave.

#491
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Taleroth wrote...
I'm not sure who's going around talking about locking all the Templars away or killing them.


Anders.

#492
LobselVith8

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Morocco Mole wrote...

I would say the behavior of some mages shouldn't condemn all of them. No one thinks there aren't any bad mages, but some of us don't condemn an entire race of people simply because some of them engage in criminal behavior. For example, the actions of one mage (Anders) shouldn't condemn hundreds to death who are innocent of the actions of this former Grey Warden.


You are aware that I could switch out mage for templar and this would still make sense are you?


Templars are soldiers, not a race of people. They are a religious order of soldiers who enforce an institution condemned by some as slavery, and who are said to have dominion over mages by divine right. That's partly why people like me oppose their policies and their methods.

#493
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Do you support genocide of a group because of their religious preferences my friend?

#494
LobselVith8

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Do you support genocide of a group because of their religious preferences my friend?


If I'm playing as a Dalish mage and the templars attempt to kill my protagonist for being a heathen apostate, then I support my character defending his life. Templars have hunted down the Dalish for centuries, but I don't know if the Mage-Templar War will focus their efforts on the free Circle mages exclusively or against all mages.

#495
TheKomandorShepard

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

For some of us, her backstory and her occassional moments of humanity doesn't excuse her monstrous behavior.


And the backstory and occasional moments of humanity excuses the monstrous behavior of the mages?


I would say the behavior of some mages shouldn't condemn all of them. No one thinks there aren't any bad mages, but some of us don't condemn an entire race of people simply because some of them engage in criminal behavior. For example, the actions of one mage (Anders) shouldn't condemn hundreds to death who are innocent of the actions of this former Grey Warden.


Now you are talking about drizzt and drows and you judge drows by drizzt because drizzt is good but entrie race of drows evil. Same for mages we go through two games and fight with hundreds blood mages and abominations what clearly shows that even if mage is good what is minority only one second and we have abomniation , mages are nothing more than unstable bombs adding with that most of them is crazy.

To be honest templars aren't better most of them are mad fanatics and junkies if they are
justified in that what they do to mages , mages are justified in killing templars.

#496
dragonflight288

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Do you support genocide of a group because of their religious preferences my friend?


If I'm playing as a Dalish mage and the templars attempt to kill my protagonist for being a heathen apostate, then I support my character defending his life. Templars have hunted down the Dalish for centuries, but I don't know if the Mage-Templar War will focus their efforts on the free Circle mages exclusively or against all mages.


I think you and I both know that the zealots of the Chatry categorize all mages the same. Given that the Chantry and the templars go out of their way to blur the line between apostate and maleficar as well, so they are treated as one and the same, and I think it's safe to say that all mages are targets, simply for being.

#497
Taleroth

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dragonflight288 wrote...

I think you and I both know that the zealots of the Chatry categorize all mages the same. Given that the Chantry and the templars go out of their way to blur the line between apostate and maleficar as well, so they are treated as one and the same, and I think it's safe to say that all mages are targets, simply for being. 

Outside of Kookwall, when did we see Templars acting as you claim?

Even Jowan was simply arrested. He was declared a maleficar, in addition to an apostate, but he wasn't treated as a target for simply being.

I dislike the Circle system as much as the next guy, but let's not let Meredith and her brigade of total wackadoodles taint all of the Templars.

#498
Ryzaki

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Taleroth wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think you and I both know that the zealots of the Chatry categorize all mages the same. Given that the Chantry and the templars go out of their way to blur the line between apostate and maleficar as well, so they are treated as one and the same, and I think it's safe to say that all mages are targets, simply for being. 

Outside of Kookwall, when did we see Templars acting as you claim?

Even Jowan was simply arrested. He was declared a maleficar, in addition to an apostate, but he wasn't treated as a target for simply being.

I dislike the Circle system as much as the next guy, but let's not let Meredith and her brigade of total wackadoodles taint all of the Templars.

\\

He really should've been straight up killed though. Would've saved alot of people alot of trouble.

#499
Cainhurst Crow

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This still going on?

Alright. I want a red lyrium sword without allying with the red templars. And red templar armor.

If ME could have cerberus armor, DA can have evil templar armor.

#500
dragonflight288

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Taleroth wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think you and I both know that the zealots of the Chatry categorize all mages the same. Given that the Chantry and the templars go out of their way to blur the line between apostate and maleficar as well, so they are treated as one and the same, and I think it's safe to say that all mages are targets, simply for being. 

Outside of Kookwall, when did we see Templars acting as you claim?

Even Jowan was simply arrested. He was declared a maleficar, in addition to an apostate, but he wasn't treated as a target for simply being.

I dislike the Circle system as much as the next guy, but let's not let Meredith and her brigade of total wackadoodles taint all of the Templars.


It's not from Meredith that I drew those conclusions, but the codex entries themselves when it comes down to it, as well as templars DA:O as well, that is, Aneirin was run through and called Maleficar. Wynne calls Morrigan a maleficar even though Morrigan is not a blood mage, but rather an apostate, as well as the fact that Gregoire thought seven mages going to fight a war was too many, and he's one of the more reasonable templars.

And the codex and wiki make it quite clear that the Chantry and the templars alike do all they can to blur the line between apostate and maleficar, so they are confused as one and the same.

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Maleficarum - That is the wiki post that specifically says that Morrigan is called a maleficar despite not being a blood mage becuase she practices a form of magic not recognized by the Circle, and therefore the Chantry (her shapeshifting.)

There is also this codex entry on Apostates.

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates and maleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry
has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is
so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar,
he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars,
and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to
survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.
Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are
either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never
part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to
refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the
hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some
of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped,
their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the
hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being
entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed
down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of
the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.
No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them
alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to
justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some
overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.
--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.


I bolded the last paragraph because it makes clear that the Chantry treats all mages alike once called apostate...Anders being a notable exception, and his character bio when Awakening came out said the reason for that was his hatred of blood magic was just as strong as the Chantry's, so they couldn't reasonably call him a maleficar.

No mention of meredith and ehr cronies. I usually use her as an example of abuse of political power and why templars shouldn't get involved with politics. Period.