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[AresKeith]

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Well it was already stated that the Red Templars are a splinter group, so it's safe to say that they don't represent the entire Templar Order

Source, please?

Source that they are a splinter group?

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Jeez, everything really is Hawke's fault.

Yep.

No, if there is any finger pointing that pointing should all be pointed towards Anders. (Not BroAnders of DAO:A. He was awesome.) Hence the "GOD DAMN IT ANDERS!" meme.

Or how about Bartrand? The person who spearheaded the campaign into the deep roads, stole the lyrium idol and then sold it to a crazy person?

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

It's Varric's fault as well because he recruited Hawke and handed the Lyrium Idol to Bartrand.

Now that is just silly. He didn't know anything that he was doing and had no intention of doing anything with it beyond selling it.  (Anyway, back on topic now)

Cullen is pretty much confirmed for this game and from what we can tell is still a Templar. So HIGHLY doubt that they are the "BIG BAD". Red Templars are only a fraction of what is going wrong amongst many other things.

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Jeez, everything really is Hawke's fault.

Yep.

No, if there is any finger pointing that pointing should all be pointed towards Anders. (Not BroAnders of DAO:A. He was awesome.) Hence the "GOD DAMN IT ANDERS!" meme.

Or how about Bartrand? The person who spearheaded the campaign into the deep roads, stole the lyrium idol and then sold it to a crazy person?

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

She wasn't. 1. She never approved of anything that the other suspicious members of Templars were doing. She disapproved of the right of tranquility when it was first suggested before she got her hands on her new toy that drove her mad.  2. All the rumors of her before the final act were false. 3. We the player know very little about her as person in general as well. Too little screen time.

Meredith was always paranoid,the Red Lyrium Idol just enhanced those qualities of her personality and made them 10X worse.

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

Meredith wasn't evil

[Plaintiff]

Genshie wrote...
She wasn't. 1. She never approved of anything that the other suspicious members of Templars were doing.

If she didn't approve of it, then she's grossly, unforgivably incompetent for letting it carry on under her nose. Five minutes in the Gallows courtyard is all it takes for Hawke to figure out that illegal tranquility and physical/sexual abuses are occuring. The only way "good" Templars like Cullen or (haha) Meredith could possibly be "unaware" of the situation is if they were deliberately turning a blind eye to it.

She disapproved of the right of tranquility when it was first suggested before she got her hands on her new toy that drove her mad.

So what? She does a million other terrible things.

2. All the rumors of her before the final act were false. 3. We the player know very little about her as person in general as well. Too little screen time.

We know that she was grossly overstepping her bounds as Knight-Commander before Hawke even came to Kirkwall. She wasn't doing her actual job, she was strongarming the Viscount and trying to assume defacto rule of the city.

[Genshie]

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

Meredith wasn't evil

That is what I keep saying. She isn't period. It is the cruch of the idol (plus lazy writing)  in the final act that makes her seem that way.

[Genshie]

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...
She wasn't. 1. She never approved of anything that the other suspicious members of Templars were doing.

If she didn't approve of it, then she's grossly, unforgivably incompetent for letting it carry on under her nose. Five minutes in the Gallows courtyard is all it takes for Hawke to figure out that illegal tranquility and physical/sexual abuses are occuring. The only way "good" Templars like Cullen or (haha) Meredith could possibly be "unaware" of the situation is if they were deliberately turning a blind eye to it.

She disapproved of the right of tranquility when it was first suggested before she got her hands on her new toy that drove her mad.

So what? She does a million other terrible things.

2. All the rumors of her before the final act were false. 3. We the player know very little about her as person in general as well. Too little screen time.

We know that she was grossly overstepping her bounds as Knight-Commander before Hawke even came to Kirkwall. She wasn't doing her actual job, she was strongarming the Viscount and trying to assume defacto rule of the city.

1. One person can not keep an eye on everything. Evil/bad things naturally happen.  2. What terrible things did she do before the final act? The player has no knowledge of any of her "terrible" actions beyond bad and false rumors. 3. All the things you mentioned were when she had her new toy. She isn't evil. All we get is mentions of her name and one little clip of her walking around which does not tell us anything that she has/hasn't done. You are pulling facts out of a hat that are not there. 

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 12:57 .

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

Meredith wasn't evil

No she was'nt,however she was paranoid and already had a extreme dislike for mages because of what happened to her sister.The Lyrium Idol just took those parts of her personality and magnified them tenfold.

[Magdalena11]

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

Meredith wasn't evil

No, she was worse.  She was a delusional individual who felt that she was the only person who could keep a lid on Kiriwall.  She was willing to go to any length to retain power, even if it involved shady deals and stomping on others' rights.  With no real basis for her beliefs, she was willing to "sacrifice" as many others as necessary to achieve her ends.  It's possible to be evil indeed without intending to.  I don't think she woke up one morning and decided that mages in general needed to be wiped out but it's the actions that curse you, not the intent.

[Plaintiff]

Genshie wrote...
1. One person can not keep an eye on everything. Evil/bad things naturally happen.

Bull.

In the real world, a commanding officer is responsible for the actions of his men, and if he can't control them, he gets in trouble alongside them.

In the real world, neglect is a criminal offense.

2. What terrible things did she do before the final act?

Aside from blatantly ignoring the fact that her barracks were a reeking dungeon of rape? Every other thing that is typical Templar behaviour.

The player has no knowledge of any of her "terrible" actions beyond bad and false rumors.

We know that she's incompetent.

3. All the things you mentioned were when she had her new toy. She isn't evil.

If she's not malicious, she's incompetent, and deserves to be punished on that basis. If she's not incompetent, she's malicious.

Those are your options. Pick one.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:00 .

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

Meredith wasn't evil

No she was'nt,however she was paranoid and already had a extreme dislike for mages because of what happened to her sister.The Lyrium Idol just took those parts of her personality and magnified them tenfold.

And I agree about that, but I still wouldn't call her evil like others do

[d-boy15]

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders - hate all Templar because they never let him alone and what they did to his friend.

Meredith - hate Mage because her hidden sister turned abomination and destroy everything she love.

Modifié par d-boy15, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:03 .

[Genshie]

Magdalena11 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Genshie wrote...

I will say both either Bartrand and Anders are good sources for blame. And Meredith wasn't crazy at the start. Heck, she isn't even evil and if anything she became chaotic good.

lol. Whatever you say.

Meredith wasn't evil

No, she was worse.  She was a delusional individual who felt that she was the only person who could keep a lid on Kiriwall.  She was willing to go to any length to retain power, even if it involved shady deals and stomping on others' rights.  With no real basis for her beliefs, she was willing to "sacrifice" as many others as necessary to achieve her ends.  It's possible to be evil indeed without intending to.  I don't think she woke up one morning and decided that mages in general needed to be wiped out but it's the actions that curse you, not the intent.

The delusions only came after she got her hands on the red lyrium idol. Everything else she was doing was under her "title" and she even defended mages before the influence of the "idol".  I don't know why people are jumping down this character's throat because of the extreme change due to an outside force/lazy writing at the end.

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:03 .

[MisterJB]

AresKeith wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Well it was already stated that the Red Templars are a splinter group, so it's safe to say that they don't represent the entire Templar Order

Source, please?

Source that they are a splinter group?

Yes.

[Genshie]

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Well it was already stated that the Red Templars are a splinter group, so it's safe to say that they don't represent the entire Templar Order

Source, please?

Source that they are a splinter group?

Yes.

It's kind of obvious the Red Templars are a splinter group.

[AresKeith]

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Well it was already stated that the Red Templars are a splinter group, so it's safe to say that they don't represent the entire Templar Order

Source, please?

Source that they are a splinter group?

Yes.

http://www.gameinfor...tion-intel.aspx

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Well it was already stated that the Red Templars are a splinter group, so it's safe to say that they don't represent the entire Templar Order

Source, please?

Source that they are a splinter group?

Yes.

It's kind of obvious the Red Templars are a splinter group.

Agreed. They wouldn't be distinguishing themselves as "Red Templars" if they were of the main group of Templars.

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[d-boy15]

Genshie wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

Well,  Anders is influenced by Justice too.... as I said they are two sides of the same coin.

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

She was alread pushing for the ROA even before Anders pulled his little stunt.

[MisterJB]

edit: Nevermind, my mistake.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

She was alread pushing for the ROA even before Anders pulled his little stunt.

No she wasn't

[Genshie]

d-boy15 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

Well,  Anders is influenced by Justice too.... as I said they are two sides of the same coin.

Nope, Anders wasn't influenced by anything. He himself said after the act that the line between him and Justice no longer existed and was long gone. He acted on his own free will.

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:09 .

[Genshie]

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

She was alread pushing for the ROA even before Anders pulled his little stunt.

No she wasn't

She disapproved of it. Anders even read the note saying she did.

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Meredith isn't really evil, she is the same as Anders.

Both think other side is evil and willing to do anything to reach their goal. People views Anders
in more light because he's companion especially LI one and not a last boss.

Anders is/or should be considered a terrorist that only was the cataylist for Meredith to go off the deep end totally due to the influence of said idol. 

She was alread pushing for the ROA even before Anders pulled his little stunt.

No she wasn't

Yes she did push for the ROA...several times.But Elthina kept rejecting it and so Anders did Meredith a favor by killing the only person who could have stopped her.

Modifié par cjones91, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:11 .