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[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras says otherwise in Act III.

Everyone has an opinion just some are way different than others. I will let it go and say that Meredith is extreme with her beliefs. Notice how the things really start to fall apart when the red lyrium idol is introduced.

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

None of these are proven and most of these actions were either proved false and or out of Meredith's "watchful" eye. These "cronies" did things outside of their duties and were not ordered directly by Meredith to commit these acts. You can not damn a person for another person's actions outside of their own control. I really doubt Meredith knew of most of these acts being taken placed.

That kind of excuse does'nt fly when you are in charge of soilders and they start doing illegal things.As Knight Commander Meredith is fully responsible for the actions of templars under her command.

[AresKeith]

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

An act of Terrorism you mean, which could've (and can) result in the Death of every Mage in Kirkwall and would make him hated by both Mages and Templars

oh wait, he gets hated by them anyway

[LobselVith8]

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

None of these are proven and most of these actions were either proved false and or out of Meredith's "watchful" eye. These "cronies" did things outside of their duties and were not ordered directly by Meredith to commit these acts. You can not damn a person for another person's actions outside of their own control. I really doubt Meredith knew of most of these acts being taken placed.

Meredith killed mages randomly if you get the Starkhaven mages to go to the Circle of Kirkwall. The draconian policies enforced by the Knight-Commander are addressed as the content of Karl's letters to Anders. I'm not certain why you think it's up for debate.

And damning a person for something they didn't do... why does that sound so familiar?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina

That was Ser Alrik.Ser Otto was that blind templar in DAO and he was one of the good ones.

Modifié par cjones91, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:34 .

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras says otherwise in Act III.

Everyone has an opinion just some are way different than others. I will let it go and say that Meredith is extreme with her beliefs. Notice how the things really start to fall apart when the red lyrium idol is introduced.

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

None of these are proven and most of these actions were either proved false and or out of Meredith's "watchful" eye. These "cronies" did things outside of their duties and were not ordered directly by Meredith to commit these acts. You can not damn a person for another person's actions outside of their own control. I really doubt Meredith knew of most of these acts being taken placed.

That kind of excuse does'nt fly when you are in charge of soilders and they start doing illegal things.As Knight Commander Meredith is fully responsible for the actions of templars under her command.

How does these actions by these men, who she had no idea what they were doing, make her evil though? You are really reaching here.

[d-boy15]

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

His desperation or Mage desperation?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Genshie wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yes she did push for the ROA...several times,but Ethina kept rejecting it and so Anders did Meredith a favor by killing the only person who could have stopped her.

No she didn't, that one Templar guy was but Meredith AND the Ethina rejected it

You're right she did, of course an hour latter she calls for every mage in Kirkwall to be slaughtered because of something they had no part in.

Once again "RED LYRIUM" influence.

And every Templar followed her orders knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. The Templars were waiting for an excuse to slaughter the mages Meredith just gave them an inch and they took it all day long, not one Templar stood up and said what was going on was wrong.

I blame the Red Lyrium for speeding up a process that was already happening on its own.

[Genshie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

None of these are proven and most of these actions were either proved false and or out of Meredith's "watchful" eye. These "cronies" did things outside of their duties and were not ordered directly by Meredith to commit these acts. You can not damn a person for another person's actions outside of their own control. I really doubt Meredith knew of most of these acts being taken placed.

Meredith killed mages randomly if you get the Starkhaven mages to go to the Circle of Kirkwall. The draconian policies enforced by the Knight-Commander are addressed as the content of Karl's letters to Anders. I'm not certain why you think it's up for debate.

And damning a person for something they didn't do... why does that sound so familiar?

You never see these actions commited and only hear of it. Meredith has her roll and if her actions are justified by the Chantry and the divine then she is just. (This doesn't include the final actions taken place in the final act which were influence by the red lyrium.)

[Genshie]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Genshie wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yes she did push for the ROA...several times,but Ethina kept rejecting it and so Anders did Meredith a favor by killing the only person who could have stopped her.

No she didn't, that one Templar guy was but Meredith AND the Ethina rejected it

You're right she did, of course an hour latter she calls for every mage in Kirkwall to be slaughtered because of something they had no part in.

Once again "RED LYRIUM" influence.

And every Templar followed her orders knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. The Templars were waiting for an excuse to slaughter the mages Meredith just gave them an inch and they took it all day long, not one Templar stood up and said what was going on was wrong.

I blame the Red Lyrium for speeding up a process that was already happening on its own.

That doesn't make her originally evil though which is the point of this conversation.

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras says otherwise in Act III.

Everyone has an opinion just some are way different than others. I will let it go and say that Meredith is extreme with her beliefs. Notice how the things really start to fall apart when the red lyrium idol is introduced.

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

None of these are proven and most of these actions were either proved false and or out of Meredith's "watchful" eye. These "cronies" did things outside of their duties and were not ordered directly by Meredith to commit these acts. You can not damn a person for another person's actions outside of their own control. I really doubt Meredith knew of most of these acts being taken placed.

That kind of excuse does'nt fly when you are in charge of soilders and they start doing illegal things.As Knight Commander Meredith is fully responsible for the actions of templars under her command.

How does these actions by these men, who she had no idea what they were doing, make her evil though? You are really reaching here.

I'm not saying she was evil...however Meredith was still responsible for her templar's behaviour and claiming ignorance does'nt help either.

[Lord Raijin]

Genshie wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

The majority of the tyrant behavior being influenced and brought by the red lyrium.  (Damn I am starting to really hate red lyrium. It is like ME's indoctrination)

Can you prove that the red lyrium idol was speaking to Meredith, and convinced her to buy it without touching it in the first place? Meredith was power hungry and therefour sought sources for more power.

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina

That was Ser Alrik.Ser Otto was that blind templar in DAO and he was one of the good ones.

Actually the guy in DA2 name was Ser Otto Alrik, but I see the point

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina 

No - the real Ser Otto - the blind templar in the Denerim Alienage who fights demons and senses a disturbance in the Force - I mean the Fade.

[Genshie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina 

No - the real Ser Otto - the blind templar in the Denerim Alienage who fights demons and senses a disturbance in the Force - I mean the Fade.

And all I say is OUCH. Such a cool character to go out in a lame/horrible way.

[Genshie]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

The majority of the tyrant behavior being influenced and brought by the red lyrium.  (Damn I am starting to really hate red lyrium. It is like ME's indoctrination)

Can you prove that the red lyrium idol was speaking to Meredith, and convinced her to buy it without touching it in the first place? Meredith was power hungry and therefour sought sources for more power.

 And she had no idea of the influence of the idol just like how Bartrend didn't either and it drove him literally insane.

[cjones91]

d-boy15 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

His desperation or Mage desperation?

Both since Anders was obsessed with mage freedom which is one of the reasons he joined with Justice in the first place.

[AresKeith]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

The majority of the tyrant behavior being influenced and brought by the red lyrium.  (Damn I am starting to really hate red lyrium. It is like ME's indoctrination)

Can you prove that the red lyrium idol was speaking to Meredith, and convinced her to buy it without touching it in the first place? Meredith was power hungry and therefour sought sources for more power.

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it 

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras says otherwise in Act III.

Everyone has an opinion just some are way different than others. I will let it go and say that Meredith is extreme with her beliefs. Notice how the things really start to fall apart when the red lyrium idol is introduced.

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

None of these are proven and most of these actions were either proved false and or out of Meredith's "watchful" eye. These "cronies" did things outside of their duties and were not ordered directly by Meredith to commit these acts. You can not damn a person for another person's actions outside of their own control. I really doubt Meredith knew of most of these acts being taken placed.

That kind of excuse does'nt fly when you are in charge of soilders and they start doing illegal things.As Knight Commander Meredith is fully responsible for the actions of templars under her command.

How does these actions by these men, who she had no idea what they were doing, make her evil though? You are really reaching here.

I'm not saying she was evil...however Meredith was still responsible for her templar's behaviour and claiming ignorance does'nt help either.

 That is fine you feel that way. Still doesn't make her an evil person the way most people think she is due to pretty red lyrium blade. *lazy writing*

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina 

No - the real Ser Otto - the blind templar in the Denerim Alienage who fights demons and senses a disturbance in the Force - I mean the Fade.

And all I say is OUCH. Such a cool character to go out in a lame/horrible way.

Yeah,he got killed by a pitch fork where characters have survived worse than that.

[Genshie]

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

The majority of the tyrant behavior being influenced and brought by the red lyrium.  (Damn I am starting to really hate red lyrium. It is like ME's indoctrination)

Can you prove that the red lyrium idol was speaking to Meredith, and convinced her to buy it without touching it in the first place? Meredith was power hungry and therefour sought sources for more power.

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it 

I like you. I feel like we echo eachother.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Genshie wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Genshie wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yes she did push for the ROA...several times,but Ethina kept rejecting it and so Anders did Meredith a favor by killing the only person who could have stopped her.

No she didn't, that one Templar guy was but Meredith AND the Ethina rejected it

You're right she did, of course an hour latter she calls for every mage in Kirkwall to be slaughtered because of something they had no part in.

Once again "RED LYRIUM" influence.

And every Templar followed her orders knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. The Templars were waiting for an excuse to slaughter the mages Meredith just gave them an inch and they took it all day long, not one Templar stood up and said what was going on was wrong.

I blame the Red Lyrium for speeding up a process that was already happening on its own.

That doesn't make her originally evil though which is the point of this conversation.

She was carrying around the baggage of what happened to her family and she saw corruption in every mage and sought to eliminate their freedoms. She wasn't a good person when we first saw her in the game. Sure she claimed to be doing it for the good of everyone and yes she wasn't as utterly nuts as the guy that wanted to tranquil everyone but she wasn't the fair person that Greagoir was.

Greagoir is an example of a good Knight commander. Meredith is a bad one and she was from the start.

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina 

No - the real Ser Otto - the blind templar in the Denerim Alienage who fights demons and senses a disturbance in the Force - I mean the Fade.

And all I say is OUCH. Such a cool character to go out in a lame/horrible way.

Yeah,he got killed by a pitch fork where characters have survived worse than that.

Anders survived an entire keep coming down on him. (Depending on which ending you got for him in Awakening)

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

An act of Terrorism you mean, which could've (and can) result in the Death of every Mage in Kirkwall and would make him hated by both Mages and Templars

oh wait, he gets hated by them anyway 

Meredith wasn't forced to try to kill hundreds of mages for an act Anders alone is responsible for, and we really don't know how mages in general view Anders. I suppose the Champion's ultimate choice between Meredith and the mages might be a factor.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

Are you bloody kidding? What Anders did was a calculated act that he had spent months planning and preparing for and was intended to have effects that went well beyond Kirkwall as he himself admitted. That maniac; who, by own admission, would kill everyone else in the world so long as mages are freed by that act; would have just as easily commited an act of terrorism in Ferelden.
Anders was the one who decided for every "oh so precious" mage in Kirkwall's Circle that fighting and dying for "the cause" was worth regardless if they wished to be martyrs or not. How anyone, pro-mage included, can defend his actions is beyond me.

[Genshie]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Genshie wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Genshie wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yes she did push for the ROA...several times,but Ethina kept rejecting it and so Anders did Meredith a favor by killing the only person who could have stopped her.

No she didn't, that one Templar guy was but Meredith AND the Ethina rejected it

You're right she did, of course an hour latter she calls for every mage in Kirkwall to be slaughtered because of something they had no part in.

Once again "RED LYRIUM" influence.

And every Templar followed her orders knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. The Templars were waiting for an excuse to slaughter the mages Meredith just gave them an inch and they took it all day long, not one Templar stood up and said what was going on was wrong.

I blame the Red Lyrium for speeding up a process that was already happening on its own.

That doesn't make her originally evil though which is the point of this conversation.

She was carrying around the baggage of what happened to her family and she saw corruption in every mage and sought to eliminate their freedoms. She wasn't a good person when we first saw her in the game. Sure she claimed to be doing it for the good of everyone and yes she wasn't as utterly nuts as the guy that wanted to tranquil everyone but she wasn't the fair person that Greagoir was.

Greagoir is an example of a good Knight commander. Meredith is a bad one and she was from the start.

From the start we have no idea how she acted and from the way things were she was doing her job which sounds good to me. Like I said in one of my original post she was Chaotic Good.