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[Lord Raijin]

cjones91 wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

His desperation or Mage desperation?

Both since Anders was obsessed with mage freedom which is one of the reasons he joined with Justice in the first place.

Like what Hawke says " Forcing mages into servitude is not the way to prevent the rise of another Imperium."

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina 

No - the real Ser Otto - the blind templar in the Denerim Alienage who fights demons and senses a disturbance in the Force - I mean the Fade.

And all I say is OUCH. Such a cool character to go out in a lame/horrible way.

Yeah,he got killed by a pitch fork where characters have survived worse than that.

Anders survived an entire keep coming down on him. (Depending on which ending you got for him in Awakening)

 That was Velanna,Anders takes out groups of darkspawn and was found with darkspawn bodies surrounding him.

[Genshie]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

Are you bloody kidding? What Anders did was a calculated act that he had spent months planning and preparing for and was intended to have effects that went well beyond Kirkwall as he himself admitted. That maniac; who, by own admission, would kill everyone else in the world so long as mages are freed by that act; would have just as easily commited an act of terrorism in Ferelden.
Anders was the one who decided for every "oh so precious" mage in Kirkwall's Circle that fighting and dying for "the cause" was worth regardless if they wished to be martyrs or not. How anyone, pro-mage included, can defend his actions is beyond me.

Considering he killed people who had literally no role/chose to not have a role in this conflict it only makes his actions that much worse. He is by very definition a terrorist.

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith kills mages to make a point in Act I and her extreme methods lead to Karl writing letters to his first love, Anders, prior to Act I. There's also the tendency of Meredith's "cronies" being sadists and rapists. As for good members of the Templar Order, I think of characters like Greagoir, Ser Otto, Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, or Alistair.

Ser Otto? The guy who wanted his Tranquil Solution but was denied by both Meredith and Ethina 

No - the real Ser Otto - the blind templar in the Denerim Alienage who fights demons and senses a disturbance in the Force - I mean the Fade.

And all I say is OUCH. Such a cool character to go out in a lame/horrible way.

Yeah,he got killed by a pitch fork where characters have survived worse than that.

Anders survived an entire keep coming down on him. (Depending on which ending you got for him in Awakening)

 That was Velanna,Anders takes out groups of darkspawn and was found with darkspawn bodies surrounding him.

Not in my ending. Velanna walked and wandered off into the deep roads. (Anders for me stayed and left) When you meet Nathaniel (sp?) in the Deep Roads he makes a comment about seeing Anders getting crushed/dying.  (You forget there are multiple endings for each individual companion depending on what you did, what you defeneded, and how you treated the characters.)

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

[Genshie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

*Cough* Red Lyrium being a cruch for big bad*cough*

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

An act of Terrorism you mean, which could've (and can) result in the Death of every Mage in Kirkwall and would make him hated by both Mages and Templars

oh wait, he gets hated by them anyway 

Meredith wasn't forced to try to kill hundreds of mages for an act Anders alone is responsible for, and we really don't know how mages in general view Anders. I suppose the Champion's ultimate choice between Meredith and the mages might be a factor.

I'm not saying that was the only factor, Meredith and Hawke were factors in it too but what Anders did was the biggest

In the book Asunder, they referred to him as "Damn Anders" because the rest of the Circles got more strict because of the Kirkwall Incident

[Genshie]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

An act of Terrorism you mean, which could've (and can) result in the Death of every Mage in Kirkwall and would make him hated by both Mages and Templars

oh wait, he gets hated by them anyway 

Meredith wasn't forced to try to kill hundreds of mages for an act Anders alone is responsible for, and we really don't know how mages in general view Anders. I suppose the Champion's ultimate choice between Meredith and the mages might be a factor.

I'm not saying that was the only factor, Meredith and Hawke were factors in it too but what Anders did was the biggest

In the book Asunder, they referred to him as "Damn Anders" because the rest of the Circles got more strict because of the Kirkwall Incident

 Hence the, "GOD DAMNIT ANDERS! meme once again!
You would think the Grey Wardens would be the ones who really bite down hard on their mage members though.

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

*Cough* Red Lyrium being a cruch for big bad*cough*

Red Lyirum does make people crazy...kind of like the Pieces of Eden in the Assassin's Creed series.

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

Bartrand probably told her that its better than regular lyrium and conned her into buying it

[Genshie]

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

*Cough* Red Lyrium being a cruch for big bad*cough*

Red Lyirum does make people crazy...kind of like the Pieces of Eden in the Assassin's Creed series.

Let us just say insanity in general is an over used hat for evil.

[LobselVith8]

Genshie wrote...

Considering he killed people who had literally no role/chose to not have a role in this conflict it only makes his actions that much worse. He is by very definition a terrorist.

I'm sure the templars see it that way. Advocates for mage freedom could say Anders tried to end the slavery of his people, and attacked members of an institution that forced mages into servitude for nearly a millennia. They might condemn Meredith as a genocidal lunatic. I'm sure there are multiple views in the world of Thedas. Not to mention how our protagonist might have possible views on the situation (especially mage or templar players).

[cjones91]

Genshie wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

And how was Meredith to know that the Red Lyrium would do that to her when nobody knew about it  

I'm more interested in why Meredith bothered to purchase the lyrium idol in the first place besides 'the Plot says so'.

*Cough* Red Lyrium being a cruch for big bad*cough*

Red Lyirum does make people crazy...kind of like the Pieces of Eden in the Assassin's Creed series.

Let us just say insanity in general is an over used hat for evil.

I agree,that's why I like villians who are sophisticated like Haytham Kenway since they actually have reasons for doing bad things.

[Genshie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Considering he killed people who had literally no role/chose to not have a role in this conflict it only makes his actions that much worse. He is by very definition a terrorist.

I'm sure the templars see it that way. Advocates for mage freedom could say Anders tried to end the slavery of his people, and attacked members of an institution that forced mages into servitude for nearly a millennia. They might condemn Meredith as a genocidal lunatic. I'm sure there are multiple views in the world of Thedas. Not to mention how our protagonist might have possible views on the situation (especially mage or templar players).

My recent Hawke drew the line when she tried to condone killing Bethany. My only Hawke so far to support Templars. (I kicked myself since I was playing on Nightmare and had no healer after choosing Templar support. Didn't die once but boy it was much harder.)

Modifié par Genshie, 11 septembre 2013 - 02:00 .

[MisterJB]

Anders forced a portion of his people to become unwilling martyrs, I'm sure every mage in Kirkwall's Circle will just be singing him praises.
Not to mention attempting to force every person in the continent to either fight or die because, clearly, Anders is the only one who can decide how things should be.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Anders forced a portion of his people to become unwilling martyrs, I'm sure every mage in Kirkwall's Circle will just be singing him praises.
Not to mention attempting to force every person in the continent to either fight or die because, clearly, Anders is the only one who can decide how things should be.

Kind of like how Lambert bullied the Knight Commanders and the templars into breaking away from the Chantry,right?

[wolfhowwl]

Did Lambert blow up a building in a city center in order to provoke a massive military response in hope the resulting bloodbath would kick off his desired war?

So no, not like Lambert.

[LobselVith8]

Genshie wrote...

My recent Hawke drew the line when she tried to condone killing Bethany. My only Hawke so far to support Templars. (I kicked myself since I was playing on Nightmare and had no healer after choosing Templar support.)

I've never supported the templars myself - or Meredith. Hmmm... I wonder if the red templars are mandatory or optional antagonists. I can imagine some players would ally with them. Perhaps templar might be an optional background for the Inquisitor? I know it was theorized early on during the 'five rings' promo.

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

My recent Hawke drew the line when she tried to condone killing Bethany. My only Hawke so far to support Templars. (I kicked myself since I was playing on Nightmare and had no healer after choosing Templar support.)

I've never supported the templars myself - or Meredith. Hmmm... I wonder if the red templars are mandatory or optional antagonists. I can imagine some players would ally with them. Perhaps templar might be an optional background for the Inquisitor? I know it was theorized early on during the 'five rings' promo.

I don't think people will get the option to join insane Templars on red lyrium 

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Did Lambert blow up a building in a city center in order to provoke a massive military response in hope the resulting bloodbath would kick off his desired war?

So no, not like Lambert.

Both him and Anders took it upon themselves to drag their respective groups into a war most of them likely wanted no part in.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"Some people call him a turrurist, he considers himself a teacherrrrr. Lesson numburrrr one: Compromise, there is no such thing."

Someone should make a banner of Anders as "The Anderin."

[Lord Raijin]

Genshie wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What Anders did was a total act of desperation that was caused by Meredith tyrant behavior.

Are you bloody kidding? What Anders did was a calculated act that he had spent months planning and preparing for and was intended to have effects that went well beyond Kirkwall as he himself admitted. That maniac; who, by own admission, would kill everyone else in the world so long as mages are freed by that act; would have just as easily commited an act of terrorism in Ferelden.
Anders was the one who decided for every "oh so precious" mage in Kirkwall's Circle that fighting and dying for "the cause" was worth regardless if they wished to be martyrs or not. How anyone, pro-mage included, can defend his actions is beyond me.

Considering he killed people who had literally no role/chose to not have a role in this conflict it only makes his actions that much worse. He is by very definition a terrorist.

MisterJB, Lets pretend that mages are real and you are one of them. The Chantry is also real and so are the Templars. The overpowering Chantry has a law where they can tell their templars to enforce the segregation of mages by tearing young mages from their families and then toss them all into what they call "The Circle". While you do get some benefits like learning how to control your magic and help others to control it as well, you are not allowed to leave. You become a prisoner. If you escape you get punished. You are a prisoner of the Chantry. You are not allowed to have a family of your own. If you get pregnate the templars will take your newborn child away and send them off to the Chantry where you never get to see your child again.

Meredith Father and Mother didn't trust the Templars nor the Chantry, and refuses to take their daughter to the circle, willingly. They did not want their daughter to become a prisoner of the circle, and was willing to risk their own lives, as they did, to keep their daughter away from the hands of the Templars.

The Chantry are so afraid of the very concept of allowing mages to be free that they fear that it will cause another Imperium, but in fact it's the complete opposite.

Now tell me something. You as a mage would accept this lifestyle? To live the rest of your entire life in a Chantry run circle where you're consently being watched? Who the Andraste panties would find this acceptable living? By Makers breathe try living in the circle under Meredith's belt.

Anders is fighting for total freedom of Mages, and unfortunetly the last resort is with violence, which unfortunetly happen at the end.

[AresKeith]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"Some people call him a turrurist, he considers himself a teacherrrrr. Lesson numburrrr one: Compromise, there is no such thing."

Someone should make a banner of Anders as "The Anderin."

How dare you insult the Mandarin!!

[addiction21]

Lord Raijin wrote...


Meredith Father and Mother didn't trust the Templars nor the Chantry, and refuses to take their daughter to the circle, willingly. They did not want their daughter to become a prisoner of the circle, and was willing to risk their own lives, as they did, to keep their daughter away from the hands of the Templars.

And I am sure that consouls the family and friends of the 70+ dead people because of one child mage.

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith wasn't forced to try to kill hundreds of mages for an act Anders alone is responsible for, and we really don't know how mages in general view Anders. I suppose the Champion's ultimate choice between Meredith and the mages might be a factor.

I'm not saying that was the only factor, Meredith and Hawke were factors in it too but what Anders did was the biggest

In the book Asunder, they referred to him as "Damn Anders" because the rest of the Circles got more strict because of the Kirkwall Incident 

Given some mages seeing the pro-mage apostate Champion of Kirkwall as a positive symbol who showed the Circles that the templars could be defied, that might influence how some mages view Anders (for those respective runs).