516 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
That kind of excuse does'nt fly when you are in charge of soilders and they start doing illegal things.As Knight Commander Meredith is fully responsible for the actions of templars under her command.

Within reason.
Unfortunately, as evidenced by modern wars, if we were to follow that rule to the letter, there wouldnt' be any offficers left. We'd have to shoot them all.

And that's TODAY. With our modern sensibilties and oversight and investigative methods. And handy cell phones to take pictures as evidence.

Greagoir is an example of a good Knight commander. Meredith is a bad one and she was from the start.

I think DG would disagree with you there.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:08 .

[Xilizhra]

The fact that she still had some sanity is incredible, given how Betram was a raving lunatic in mere days.

Meredith wasn't pushed anywhere she didn't already want to go, so her personality didn't change much. She was already crazy. Bartrand was greedy and scheming, but wholly sane before the idol got him.

Also, she doesn't have the magic sword in Act 2.

Within reason.
Unfortunately, as evidenced by modern wars, if we were
to follow that rule to the letter, there wouldnt' be any offficers
left. We'd have to shoot them all.

Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea. At the very least, enforce the law much harder than it's currently being.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
Meredith Father and Mother didn't trust the Templars nor the Chantry, and refuses to take their daughter to the circle, willingly. They did not want their daughter to become a prisoner of the circle, and was willing to risk their own lives, as they did, to keep their daughter away from the hands of the Templars. [/qutoe]

Aaand they accomplished the destruction of the entire village - they lost their daughter, their lives, the lives of their friends and neighboars and almost the other daughter too.

[quote]
The Chantry are so afraid of the very concept of allowing mages to be free that they fear that it will cause another Imperium, but in fact it's the complete opposite. [/quote]

It is?


[quote]
Now tell me something. You as a mage would accept this lifestyle? To live the rest of your entire life in a Chantry run circle where you're consently being watched? Who the Andraste panties would find this acceptable living? By Makers breathe try living in the circle under Meredith's belt.

Anders is fighting for total freedom of Mages, and unfortunetly the last resort is with violence, which unfortunetly happen at the end.
[/quote]

I would. It's a bullet one has to bite for the good of all.

Total freedom for mages is impossible.

[jtav]

I think all Red Templars will be evil lunatics, but not all templars will be Red Templars. Mage vs. Templar is too well-established for me to believe they'll throw it all away. I side with templars on a regular basis; I don't expect that to change.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

I think all Red Templars will be evil lunatics, but not all templars will be Red Templars. Mage vs. Templar is too well-established for me to believe they'll throw it all away. I side with templars on a regular basis; I don't expect that to change.

This is starting to resemble the Alliance/Cerberus debate though.  And we all know how that ended

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think all Red Templars will be evil lunatics, but not all templars will be Red Templars. Mage vs. Templar is too well-established for me to believe they'll throw it all away. I side with templars on a regular basis; I don't expect that to change.

This is starting to resemble the Alliance/Cerberus debate though.  And we all know how that ended

Very well. I do hope the pattern continues.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think all Red Templars will be evil lunatics, but not all templars will be Red Templars. Mage vs. Templar is too well-established for me to believe they'll throw it all away. I side with templars on a regular basis; I don't expect that to change.

This is starting to resemble the Alliance/Cerberus debate though.  And we all know how that ended

Very well. I do hope the pattern continues.

on the other hand Cerberus was right all along, Control is not only possible, its very feasible.  Given more time and access to the Crucible I have no doubt it could have been implemented without bothering with Starbrat.  Then humanity can take its place as the dominant species.

Modifié par Steelcan, 11 septembre 2013 - 01:48 .

[jtav]

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think all Red Templars will be evil lunatics, but not all templars will be Red Templars. Mage vs. Templar is too well-established for me to believe they'll throw it all away. I side with templars on a regular basis; I don't expect that to change.

This is starting to resemble the Alliance/Cerberus debate though.  And we all know how that ended

But let's break down the comparison.

ME1: Cerberus is a rogue Alliance black ops group and source of enemies. They have no redeeming qualities.
ME2: Dark grey group you can sympathize with, but TIM is always presented as untrustworthy. You have to really work the dialogue wheel for Shep not to wash his hands of them.
ME3: Space N*zis.

DAO: Valid faction, though not as sympathetic as mages.
DA2: Again a valid faction. Meredith is no more insane than Orsino (who was actively aiding and abetting Quentin). The Kirkwall templars as represented by Cullen reject her. Oh, and you get to be viscount if you side with them.
DAI: ???

I don't think it's that comparable.

[Steelcan]

That is an oversimplification, and if I wasn't on my phone I'd counter it, but I can't type too well on this.

[Aolbain]

-TC1989- wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

Was there a game I didn't play, where the Templars were the big bad? If that is the case, can someone please point me towards it.

Someone didn't pay attention to DAO.

Eh, no? The templars in DAO was quite reasonable people (with the exception of Crazy-Cullen). 

It's been awhile since I played Origins, but didn't Cullen sort of have a reason for being labeled "crazy"?

Days of mental torture is a completly legitimate reason to be crazy, but that doesnt make it any less crazy.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think all Red Templars will be evil lunatics, but not all templars will be Red Templars. Mage vs. Templar is too well-established for me to believe they'll throw it all away. I side with templars on a regular basis; I don't expect that to change.

This is starting to resemble the Alliance/Cerberus debate though.  And we all know how that ended

Very well. I do hope the pattern continues.

Of course you do, you only care about your agenda.

Modifié par Mr.House, 11 septembre 2013 - 03:27 .

[Mr.House]

As for Meredith. You wanna know the best thing about Meredith? She was right the whole dam time. Of curse pro mage people will never admit it.

[Steelcan]

Mr.House wrote...

As for Meredith. You wanna know the best thing about Meredith? She was right the whole dam time. Of curse pro mage people will never admit it.

Dem blood mage thralls

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

@Lobsel: the devs confirmed that we can play as a dalish mage during PAX. While things could change, the fact that they're telling us only the features they're sure they'll implement in the game, I'd say it's difficult that this option will be changed. Which I'm glad for, since I wanted to play a dalish mage since DAO.

I've wanted to play as a Dalish mage for a long time, too. I rather like their culture and history. Transversing Orlais and Tevinter as one of the People will be interesting. I hope I can ally with the Dalish and the possible rebel elves in the kingdom of the Dales.

hhh89 wrote...

About the topic, I think we don't know enough to say which role the templars (or the mages) will have in DAI; I think that there'll be both templars and RT, plus mages and Seekers (due to rings we saw in the first concepts).

True. In the spirit of speculation, I think templars, mages, and Seekers should be optional allies. I don't think players should be forced to side with a faction they oppose.

[Lord Raijin]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
Meredith Father and Mother didn't trust the Templars nor the Chantry, and refuses to take their daughter to the circle, willingly. They did not want their daughter to become a prisoner of the circle, and was willing to risk their own lives, as they did, to keep their daughter away from the hands of the Templars. [/qutoe]

Aaand they accomplished the destruction of the entire village - they lost their daughter, their lives, the lives of their friends and neighboars and almost the other daughter too.

[quote]
The Chantry are so afraid of the very concept of allowing mages to be free that they fear that it will cause another Imperium, but in fact it's the complete opposite. [/quote]

It is?


[quote]
Now tell me something. You as a mage would accept this lifestyle? To live the rest of your entire life in a Chantry run circle where you're consently being watched? Who the Andraste panties would find this acceptable living? By Makers breathe try living in the circle under Meredith's belt.

Anders is fighting for total freedom of Mages, and unfortunetly the last resort is with violence, which unfortunetly happen at the end.
[/quote]

I would. It's a bullet one has to bite for the good of all.

Total freedom for mages is impossible.
[/quote]

No you wouldn't. You take freedom for granted and have no real appreciation if you seriously would accept being the Chantry's prisoner for being who you are, a mage.

And that is a load of crap. Look at Hawke's father. He escaped the Circle and got his freedom. He took care of his wife, raise a family and did good up until he died. So yeah Total feeedom for mages IS POSSIBLE. Mages and non-mages can coexist with each other without the help of the corruptive Chantry.

[DarthLaxian]

thats1evildude wrote...

People sure worry a lot about the depiction of fictional organizations.

yeah, of course they do, it's part of the story and it cheapens the people in them (like Templars and Mages) if they are blatantly shown as evil (no explanation for motivations, overwhelming examples of them acting a certain way (evil, crazy, retarded etc.))

note:

if the templars were shown as evil in DA2 (a lot of them certainly were evil!), then the mages were shown as crazy (and desperate) and either is not good (templars appeared like a "gang of thugs" in DA2 - with a few exceptions like the templar tracking the murders in Kirkwall and the one letting the mages leave - while the mages were the insane escapees of an asylum, which lent further creedence to the claim that the templars are evil...of course, not all of them are! (generalizations are a bane of our existence IMHO...same for clichés!))

greetings LAX
ps: sometimes clichés are ok (to drive the narrative - not every character needs to be 100% fleshed out) - but not if you expatiate it too much (by going over the top with it - making a point is one thing, bashing the player in the head with a bright neon-light-sign (figuratively speaking of course) is not!)

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

True. In the spirit of speculation, I think templars, mages, and Seekers should be optional allies. I don't think players should be forced to side with a faction they oppose.

I haven't seen a post of yours in a while.  Good to see you again.


I was under the impression that, with Cassandra joining the Inquisitor, the Seeker organization would be rolled into the Inquisition.  That may be a false assumption based on one spotlight member's action, I don't know, but it's been my understanding thus far.

[FKA_Servo]

TK514 wrote...

I haven't seen a post of yours in a while.  Good to see you again.

I was under the impression that, with Cassandra joining the Inquisitor, the Seeker organization would be rolled into the Inquisition.  That may be a false assumption based on one spotlight member's action, I don't know, but it's been my understanding thus far.

Leliana is actually a seeker as well now, right? And weren't there whispers of her being confirmed as a companion as well? I saw some people posting about it here, but I didn't catch it anywhere in any of the releases.

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...

And that is a load of crap. Look at Hawke's father. He escaped the Circle and got his freedom. He took care of his wife, raise a family and did good up until he died. So yeah Total feeedom for mages IS POSSIBLE. Mages and non-mages can coexist with each other without the help of the corruptive Chantry.

Malcom Hawke is a terrible example of your point because he didn't have total freedom as a Mage.

He lived Hawke's entire life in fear of discovery, only practicing magic in the utmost secrecy.  I would go so far as to say he didn't live his life as a Mage at all.  He was, at best, a mundane resident of Lothering working with the other mundane residents of Lothering, assisting each other by mundane means.  At worst, he was a terrified fugitive who spent every day of his life looking over his shoulder for Templars and Grey Wardens.

if he'd had total freedom, he would have been able to practice magic openly, and assist the people of Lotheing with magical means.  Further, he was never free of the Circle's/Chantry's help, because their teachings made him the Mage he was.
pJust a terrible, terrible example in every way.

Modifié par TK514, 11 septembre 2013 - 04:37 .

[Lord Raijin]

Mr.House wrote...

As for Meredith. You wanna know the best thing about Meredith? She was right the whole dam time. Of curse pro mage people will never admit it.

As a pro mage how exactly was Meredith right the entire time? Even some of her own templars started having doubts about her. So again how was she right?

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

As for Meredith. You wanna know the best thing about Meredith? She was right the whole dam time. Of curse pro mage people will never admit it.

As a pro mage how exactly was Meredith right the entire time? Even some of her own templars started having doubts about her. So again how was she right?

Because Orsino really was corrupt. There really was rampant blood magic. Blood mages really were trying to undermine her authority and use the "poor helpless oppressed mages" propaganda to exploit that. Meridith may have lost her **** at the end, but she was right about the conspiracy against her and she was right about her suspicions.

[dragonflight288]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

As for Meredith. You wanna know the best thing about Meredith? She was right the whole dam time. Of curse pro mage people will never admit it.

As a pro mage how exactly was Meredith right the entire time? Even some of her own templars started having doubts about her. So again how was she right?

Add in that many pro-mage arguments against her is her blatant abuse of political power, such as seizing control of the Viscount's office, refusing to allow the city to run itself, trying to oust the Captain of the city guard, and pretty much stating that she is the only one who can determine when she can step down.

These criticms of her have absolutely nothing to do with the Circle, or her duty as a templar.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

As for Meredith. You wanna know the best thing about Meredith? She was right the whole dam time. Of curse pro mage people will never admit it.

As a pro mage how exactly was Meredith right the entire time? Even some of her own templars started having doubts about her. So again how was she right?

that 99 % mages were blood mages and abominations? But still she was no better so...

[Lord Raijin]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...
Because Orsino really was corrupt. There really was rampant blood magic. Blood mages really were trying to undermine her authority and use the "poor helpless oppressed mages" propaganda to exploit that. Meridith may have lost her **** at the end, but she was right about the conspiracy against her and she was right about her suspicions.

And I assume that Meredith had no affiliation whatsoever over Orsino's corruption, huh? Orsino was so corrupted that he begged Meredith to revoke the ROA, and to essentinally told her to imprison him and his mages. He did not wanted this war to start, but already Meredith was so hungry for mages blood that whatever Orsino said did not make any connection with Meredith as she was clearly not listening to him. Orsino did what he did because he was in a desperate situation.

Don't get me wrong. I'm no Orsino fan but Meredith was largely responsible for what happen in Kirkwall as the same goes to the Grand Cleric.

[DarthLaxian]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Because Orsino really was corrupt. There really was rampant blood magic. Blood mages really were trying to undermine her authority and use the "poor helpless oppressed mages" propaganda to exploit that. Meridith may have lost her **** at the end, but she was right about the conspiracy against her and she was right about her suspicions.

would you stop twisting the facts to your liking?

i mean, sure he was an in-effective leader of the circle IMHO (couldn't keep his mages in line, but didn't declare secession either (or at least speak out for it)) and he helped a few blood-mages (even a crazy one who's research he kept - and later used), but all in all, he was not corrupt and not a blood-mage himself (he used it after Meredith had gone to far and was killing of the circle in a mad rampage (driven into mad-paranoia by her idol-turned-sword) totally out of controll (she should have been dismissed by the grand-cleric IMHO - but that woman was in-effective and inept, too IMHO!) - yes, it was not well written IMHO, but he was feeling desperate and thus forced into it (note: IMHO he should have acted otherwise if you helped the mages...but that didn't happen (time constraints and too low a budget IMHO...EA, i am looking at YOU!))

so no, he was not inherently corrupt - inept maybe (and even that can be argued) and blood-magic didn't run as rampant as you describe it (there were enough mages at the circle that didn't turn to it)...on a side note:

blood-magic and possessions were only this easy in Kirkwall because the veil there is very thin (i would not be surprised if that's a location for a tear (maybe even "the tear" - where our character starts of)) because of the slavery (causing many many deaths in Kirkwall) and the experiments (even more death and also the extreme-over-use of blood-magic) the magisters did (they should probably be glad that they didn't creat a tear right then and there!)

greetings LAX