375 réponses à ce sujet

[duckley]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

It's not a matter about simply knowing Ferelden to be a good king. Kings have to deal with economics, different personalities, diplomacy, military duty, etc. Does Alistair even know any of these qualities? Nope. Doesn't matter if he's benevolent either if he doesn't have a good grasp of politics, otherwise he could become the puppet of the Bannorn or not know what to do in tough situations.

Also, which strategy at Ostagar did you talk about? Because the plan he talked about with Cailan wasn't the problem. The problem was that he couldn't know that there would be so many Darkspawn. As for him retreating, he saved what was left of the Ferelden army. I'd say that's pretty noble. 

On top of all of that, Loghain didn't have anything against the Grey Wardens. He simply criticized Cailan for putting so much faith in them, as if they would magically win the battle. Your sentence about Loghain's "influence as Anora's father" not being "enough of him" seems to imply that he did it for power. There is nothing to suggest that.

I agree that Alistair being well-educated does not in and of himself make him a good King. Certainly he was young and inexperienced, but he understood military duty and there was nothing that I recall to suggest that he wasn't capable of Iearning all he needed with respect to other aspects of leading. Dont forget, he had Teagan and Eamon to help him. 

I also think it is important to remember that he was pretty much raised to hide his identity. He tended to lead from behind as a result of never being able to bring any sort of attention to himself for fear he would be seen as a threat to Cailen. I noticed how he often suggested  things to the Warden, provding background information etc which often resulted
in my Warden considering and re-considering my decisions.  Cailen specifically asked for "his best" to light the signal at Ostagar and mentioned Alistair and the Warden. Duncan charged Alistair with looking out for the recruits in the Karkari Wilds, so he was obviously seen as capable.


Yes, the strategy I referred to was Loghains plan that he reviewed with Cailen and Duncan regarding lighting the beacon etc. Why couldn't Loghain know the size of the horde? Did he not have scouts and intel? And if not, why not? And as a general would he not have a contingency plan to deal with a larger horde than expected?  I may be wrong, but it seemed to me  he saved what was left of his army (as opposed to Ferelden's army), spread rumours that the wardens were responsible for the disaster at Ostagar,  and then charged his men with finding and killing the remaining Wardens (Lothering, Zevran). I am not sure I would define that as noble.

You are correct that I do believe - rightly or wrongly - that Loghain wanted power. Again, I may be in error, but effectively getting rid of Cailen, trying to get rid of the remaining Wardens,  being complicit in the murder of the Couslands, sending his men (civil war quest) to fight other Lord's armies and declaring himself regent - even going so far as allowing Howe to kidnap his daughter when it was clear Anora saw his madness, are some of the things that lead me to think that he wanted control of Ferelden and wanted any threat to that out of the way.

Modifié par duckley, 14 septembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Volus Warlord]

Silfren wrote...

I didn't say anything about being an effective leader.  I said you are a failure if you don't try to improve the lives of your citizens.  I don't care if you're damn good at managing your nation's coffers, or at imperialistic expansion, or keeping other nations from threatening your sovereignty, or any of those things or all of them.  If a number of your citizens lives are ****, and you make no effort to change this, you are a failure.  This is my opinion; if you disagree, fine, but you don't get to try to invalidate my own take on the matter by changing the goalposts.

And trying to hard to make their lives good right now often involves damning them in the future. That is my fact. 

Psh I'll change the goalposts whenever I want. I am the goalpost-changer.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And bear in mind that a lot of people, Loghain and Cailan included, weren't certain of the Blight's veracity. To them, it didn't constitute a war but rather just a big nuisance. Despite that, Loghain made certain to fill the void left by Cailan's demise with his daughter and him, hoping that the Bannorn would not tear itself apart with political squabbling.

No. Loghain returned under mysterius circumstances, declared himself regent (or king, if we take the messenger outside of Orzammar as not being b0rked dialogue), and demanded that the bannorn swear fealty to him. He did not approach any of the respect lords and nobles who rallied behind Cailan to support him and instead had them poisoned and then gave absolute political power to someone who had just murdered Bryce Cousland and stole his lands. 

To say that he "filled the void" is just divorced from reality. To any and all outward appearance, he blatantly attempted to usurp Cailan's throne and consolidated power with other usurpers. 

But he did fill the void. I did not say how he did so was worthy of praise. In fact, it has always been my stance that his entire approach to filling the void was not sound.

That doesn't change the fact that he filled it with a certain mindset at play.

[duckley]

One more question/thought.
If Loghain made a tactical decision to retreat would he not have sounded the retreat? Isnt there some sort of protocol to do that? Cailen may have been foolish enough to ignore it, but at least he and Duncan would have been aware

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So Cailan failed militarily and Loghain failed politically. I'm not really impressed with either one.

Well, I'd argue that Cailan failed in general, but for the most part, yea.

Thing is, recruting Loghain to the wardens is taking him out of politics and putting him somewhere where he can be useful.

Don't get me wrong, I did recruit him myself; I prefer not to kill people when possible. However, the Alienage situation was absolutely indefensible and a symptom of his not considering the elves Lordaeron's people. I would prefer for people to stop remembering him as a hero, and I would never have him do the Archdemon kill (not that it's necessary, as I always do the DR, but still).

I believe people are complex and capable of contradiction within themselves. As indefensible and reprehensible as some of his actions are- I don't, never have, and never will attempt to justify the alienage stuff- he still has the potential to be a hero. It just wouldn't change the fact he was also a villain.

The bad deed doesn't stain over the good, nor the good wash clean the bad.

[Gold Dragon]

Loghain the Character struck me as practical.  His retreat at Ostagar, While Suspicious, MAY be the only reason that Fereldan even HAD a chance FOR the Landsmeet.

He was also dealt a bum hand by fate at Ostagar, and fate worsened the deal by Making things worse. Until, like a row of dominoes, it kept gathering momentum.

I suspect that Loghain, by the Landsmeet, was glad that it got stopped.

All that said, Loghain is dead in all playthrus.  In one, where the Warden refused Morrigan's Dark Ritual, I consoled him in, and only Loghain and the Warden went to the top of the tower to fight the Archdemon.  I focused on the Archdemon, and he apparently focused on the Darkspawn.  I didn't even NEED the army (tho I did bring in the mages), apparently, since I was never attacked by Darkspawn during that playthru.  (For the record, I then reloaded, and that Warden did the Ultimate Sacrifice, gaining me the achievement for all four endings.)

Other characters, either let Alistair duel Loghain (resulting in automatic death for Loghain), or are loyal to Alistair/romancing him (Lady Cousland).

That is done deliberately, as even tho you may pity a rabid dog....



... You still must put him down.

[Former_Fiend]

duckley wrote...

One more question/thought.
If Loghain made a tactical decision to retreat would he not have sounded the retreat? Isnt there some sort of protocol to do that? Cailen may have been foolish enough to ignore it, but at least he and Duncan would have been aware

Loghain sounded the retreat for his men who had yet to join the battle proper. The soldiers already in the fight were cut off; Return to Ostagar shows that the darkspawn breached the Tower of Ishal by slipping behind Cailan's lines; the tunnel opens up right at the staging area for the battle. 

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But he did fill the void.

He didn't. He attempted to usurp it. This isn't semantic quibbling about definition. The legal succession of a position of leadership is important, and declaring yourself as having filled it is not the same as filling it. 

If a political leader dies and an insane homeless person appears on youtube to declare himself the new leader, he has not "filled the void" of the old leader in any meaningful sense.

I did not say how he did so was worthy of praise. In fact, it has always been my stance that his entire approach to filling the void was not sound. That doesn't change the fact that he filled it with a certain mindset at play. 

Declaring that he filled it is not filling it. Here's a simple definition: Cailan's role - and the void he left behind - was being the stabilizing force holding back bickering nobles in Ferelden. Loghain did not do this. 

[Volus Warlord]

In Exile wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
Brutal oversimplification on top of brutal oversimplification.

Given that the "brilliant" strategist Loghain had a two step plan that involved: (i) assume you have superior numbers to darkspawn and (ii) flank them, my description is of such a level of genius that it would be a supercomputer compared to Loghain's cave painting. 

His plan literally was this:

[obstruction][Ostgar][obstruction]
                      [Cailan]
                      [spawn][Loghain] 
                                   
That was the entire plan! 

That's really not a bad plan at all. <_< Many battles were won by that tactic.

http://en.wikipedia....anking_maneuver

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 14 septembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[In Exile]

Volus Warlord wrote...
That's really not a bad plan at all. <_< Many battles were won by that tactic.

So we've gone from oversimplifcation to "not a bad plan". You know what battles weren't won by that plan? The ones were you were outnumbered 50:1 so that it looked like this:


[obstruction][Ostgar][obstruction]
       [SPAWN][Cailan] [SPAWN]
                      [spawn][Loghain] [SPAWN]
                                   [SPAWN]

Look, even your own link explains it:

 If a flanking maneuver succeeds, the opposing force would be surrounded from two or more directions, which significantly reduces the maneuverability of the outflanked force and its ability to defend itself.

You know what's even worse than being sorrounded in two directions? Being sorrounded from all directions by a numerically superior force. Walking into that would be pretty stupid. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 03:23 .

[TheConstantOne]

duckley wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

It's not a matter about simply knowing Ferelden to be a good king. Kings have to deal with economics, different personalities, diplomacy, military duty, etc. Does Alistair even know any of these qualities? Nope. Doesn't matter if he's benevolent either if he doesn't have a good grasp of politics, otherwise he could become the puppet of the Bannorn or not know what to do in tough situations.

Also, which strategy at Ostagar did you talk about? Because the plan he talked about with Cailan wasn't the problem. The problem was that he couldn't know that there would be so many Darkspawn. As for him retreating, he saved what was left of the Ferelden army. I'd say that's pretty noble. 

On top of all of that, Loghain didn't have anything against the Grey Wardens. He simply criticized Cailan for putting so much faith in them, as if they would magically win the battle. Your sentence about Loghain's "influence as Anora's father" not being "enough of him" seems to imply that he did it for power. There is nothing to suggest that.

I agree that Alistair being well-educated does not in and of himself make him a good King. Certainly he was young and inexperienced, but he understood military duty and there was nothing that I recall to suggest that he wasn't capable of Iearning all he needed with respect to other aspects of leading. Dont forget, he had Teagan and Eamon to help him. 

I also think it is important to remember that he was pretty much raised to hide his identity. He tended to lead from behind as a result of never being able to bring any sort of attention to himself for fear he would be seen as a threat to Cailen. I noticed how he often suggested  things to the Warden, provding background information etc which often resulted
in my Warden considering and re-considering my decisions.  Cailen specifically asked for "his best" to light the signal at Ostagar and mentioned Alistair and the Warden. Duncan charged Alistair with looking out for the recruits in the Karkari Wilds, so he was obviously seen as capable.


Yes, the strategy I referred to was Loghains plan that he reviewed with Cailen and Duncan regarding lighting the beacon etc. Why couldn't Loghain know the size of the horde? Did he not have scouts and intel? And if not, why not? And as a general would he not have a contingency plan to deal with a larger horde than expected?  I may be wrong, but it seemed to me  he saved what was left of his army (as opposed to Ferelden's army), spread rumours that the wardens were responsible for the disaster at Ostagar,  and then charged his men with finding and killing the remaining Wardens (Lothering, Zevran). I am not sure I would define that as noble.

You are correct that I do believe - rightly or wrongly - that Loghain wanted power. Again, I may be in error, but effectively getting rid of Cailen, trying to get rid of the remaining Wardens,  being complicit in the murder of the Couslands, sending his men (civil war quest) to fight other Lord's armies and declaring himself regent - even going so far as allowing Howe to kidnap his daughter when it was clear Anora saw his madness, are some of the things that lead me to think that he wanted control of Ferelden and wanted any threat to that out of the way.

Actually, I've thought about the Anora kidnapping.  Loghain wanting his daughter dead/incapacitated seems too far for him.  Plus, if you speak with Loghain after recruiting him, he claims to never have had any plans to kill Anora.  he has no reason to lie to you at this point in the game.  Something else seems to have been going on...

Ever notice how Ser Cauthrian shows up rather quickly to Howe's estate, charging you with his murder?  They knew Howe was dead without doing much of a search of the estate.

My thoughts on what actually happened: Anora didn't trust Howe and neither did Loghain.  They conspired to eliminate him in such a way as to blame the Warden's for his death.  Anora sent her agent to Eamon's estate to get the Warden's assistance, while Anora requested to be put under heavy guard from Howe "fearing elements of the civil war."  Loghain was Howe's political lifeline, he would agree to this request for fear of alienating his patron.  Loghain's agents would not know that Anora was at the estate as their priority would switch from arresting the Warden to securing the Queen.

So Anora and Loghain conspired to get rid of Howe.  What Loghain did not anticipate was Anora's betrayal (in my Warden's playthrough, Anora did side with me and I had Alistair and her marry.)  What we were led to believe was Loghain detaining his own daughter was actually, in my opinion, a very skilled plan to both capture the Warden (the strongest player on Eamon's side) and to kill off Howe, whom Loghain did not trust and likely felt could cause issues for his daughter in the future.  Needless to say, Loghain was outmanuevered because his daughter saw him as being a threat to the nation

[Volus Warlord]

In Exile wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
That's really not a bad plan at all. <_< Many battles were won by that tactic.

So we've gone from oversimplifcation to "not a bad plan". You know what battles weren't won by that plan? The ones were you were outnumbered 50:1 so that it looked like this:


[obstruction][Ostgar][obstruction]
       [SPAWN][Cailan] [SPAWN]
                      [spawn][Loghain] [SPAWN]
                                   [SPAWN]

Look, even your own link explains it:

 If a flanking maneuver succeeds, the opposing force would be surrounded from two or more directions, which significantly reduces the maneuverability of the outflanked force and its ability to defend itself.

You know what's even worse than being sorrounded in two directions? Being sorrounded from all directions by a numerically superior force. Walking into that would be pretty stupid. 

And he did not know that he would be so grossly outnumbered.

And if it happened as you portrayed it, Loghain would have been slaughtered. 

[In Exile]

Volus Warlord wrote...
And he did not know that he would be so grossly outnumbered.

Again, that's what makes him an idiot. It was his job to know that. And if he didn't, then it was his job to not draft a plan where he would be slaughtered by superior numbers.

And if it happened as you portrayed it, Loghain would have been slaughtered.  

Yes, becuase his plan was dumb. It fails if he's outnumbered. 

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
And he did not know that he would be so grossly outnumbered.

Again, that's what makes him an idiot. It was his job to know that. And if he didn't, then it was his job to not draft a plan where he would be slaughtered by superior numbers.

And if it happened as you portrayed it, Loghain would have been slaughtered.  

Yes, becuase his plan was dumb. It fails if he's outnumbered. 

And hence, the battle could not be won, and so a tactical retreat was sounded.

EDIT: Please rembember, Duncan was telling Cailan that Redcliff forces could be there in less than a week, and was urging to to wait for reinforcements. Loghain was telling him they that the darkspawn horde was too dangerous to be playing hero on the front lines.

People were arguing with Cailan from the beginning, get more numbers, don't go on the front lines, take the darkspawn seriously (from the Wardens.) Cailan's response to waiting for Eamon was "He just wants in on the glory." Or "I hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding alongside the fabled grey wardens against a tainted god....but I suppose this'll have to do."

Daveth says the army was stationed there, not only because it was defensible, but they were trying to draw the darkspawn out, dangle meat in front of the bear as it were, even as everyone was saying Cailan was being foolish, heck, Alistair even pretty much says this if you talk to him after meeting him, but before rejoining Duncan.

After the battle starts, I stopped on the bridge and looked down into the valley. Cailan had led the troops out of the bottleneck and into the open, and they were surrounded on 3 sides. In Return to Ostagar, we see the darkspawn had  a tunnel entrance behind the front lines for the defenders, so they were essentially surrounded and had no hope of escape.

Add in how late the beacon was lit, and the fact that darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds when we have an overview shot of the battle after Loghain retreats, and it's safe to say that any charge made to save Cailan would likely end in failure. It was the smart move, but also a politically inexpedient one.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 septembre 2013 - 03:54 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And hence, the battle could not be won, and so a tactical retreat was sounded.  

It's "fleeing". There's nothing "tactical" about it. The only reason that there was a Ferelden army wasn't some act of foresight by Loghain but sheer fluke that the darkspawn happened not to overrun whatever position he occupied before he ran away.

EDIT: Please rembember, Duncan was telling Cailan that Redcliff forces could be there in less than a week, and was urging to to wait for reinforcements. Loghain was telling him they that the darkspawn horde was too dangerous to be playing hero on the front lines.

People were arguing with Cailan from the beginning, get more numbers, don't go on the front lines, take the darkspawn seriously (from the Wardens.) Cailan's response to waiting for Eamon was "He just wants in on the glory." Or "I hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding alongside the fabled grey wardens against a tainted god....but I suppose this'll have to do."

Daveth says the army was stationed there, not only because it was defensible, but they were trying to draw the darkspawn out, dangle meat in front of the bear as it were, even as everyone was saying Cailan was being foolish, heck, Alistair even pretty much says this if you talk to him after meeting him, but before rejoining Duncan.

After the battle starts, I stopped on the bridge and looked down into the valley. Cailan had led the troops out of the bottleneck and into the open, and they were surrounded on 3 sides. In Return to Ostagar, we see the darkspawn had  a tunnel entrance behind the front lines for the defenders, so they were essentially surrounded and had no hope of escape.

Add in how late the beacon was lit, and the fact that darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds when we have an overview shot of the battle after Loghain retreats, and it's safe to say that any charge made to save Cailan would likely end in failure. It was the smart move, but also a politically inexpedient one.  

Running away from that disaster wasn't stupid. But the existence of the disaster was entirely Loghain's fault. Cailan was absolutely an idiot for charging out of the bottleneck, but Loghain's "brilliant strategy" that "would suffice" was exactly the disaster that occured. 

It doesn't matter how glory starved Cailan was. The guy was so unspeakbly incompetent that Loghain could just point blank lie to him about what the military engagement would look like and Cailan would believe him since he was just going to get "bored" with his "strategies" anyway.

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
And hence, the battle could not be won, and so a tactical retreat was sounded.  [/quote]

It's "fleeing". There's nothing "tactical" about it. The only reason that there was a Ferelden army wasn't some act of foresight by Loghain but sheer fluke that the darkspawn happened not to overrun whatever position he occupied before he ran away.[/quote]

He preserved most of the army.

Let me put it another way. Have you ever played the board game Risk? Sometimes when playing that game, or other strategy games on the computer, heck, even chess is a good analogy....I'm digressing, getting back on track...but sometimes you find yourself under attack by an overwhelming force and there's nothing you can do for it at the time. In the game of chess, one of the last pieces you ever want to lose is th queen, but there was this one game I played where I sacrificed the queen in order to get a checkmate....not the point, but whatever.

So you're saying that by holding his forces back, and waiting for a signal that was late, it was a miracle he himself wasn't overrun? And if he led the army out in a retreat, it could be called fleeing, and it is a tactical move.

Imagine that Teagan never spoke up at the Landsmeet and everyone did fall in line with Loghain. Loghain got his army and there was no civil war. He would have an army and he could go and face the darkspawn again, unaware that it was a blight, as there had been no sightings of an archdemon...ever, save for Duncan's 'feelings.'

Sometimes in a battle, you have to leave a force behind that will die while you take the larger force away to secure another front. That's called a tactical retreat, and I'm sure that's exactly what Loghain was trying to do....only he isn't a politician and therby grossly miscalculated the bannorn.

And he does have a reason to mistrust Grey Wardens, as anyone who would've read the Calling would know. He did see Duncan's predecessor colluding with the Architect to turn everyone into ghouls, after all.

[quote][quote]EDIT: Please rembember, Duncan was telling Cailan that Redcliff forces could be there in less than a week, and was urging to to wait for reinforcements. Loghain was telling him they that the darkspawn horde was too dangerous to be playing hero on the front lines.

People were arguing with Cailan from the beginning, get more numbers, don't go on the front lines, take the darkspawn seriously (from the Wardens.) Cailan's response to waiting for Eamon was "He just wants in on the glory." Or "I hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding alongside the fabled grey wardens against a tainted god....but I suppose this'll have to do."

Daveth says the army was stationed there, not only because it was defensible, but they were trying to draw the darkspawn out, dangle meat in front of the bear as it were, even as everyone was saying Cailan was being foolish, heck, Alistair even pretty much says this if you talk to him after meeting him, but before rejoining Duncan.

After the battle starts, I stopped on the bridge and looked down into the valley. Cailan had led the troops out of the bottleneck and into the open, and they were surrounded on 3 sides. In Return to Ostagar, we see the darkspawn had  a tunnel entrance behind the front lines for the defenders, so they were essentially surrounded and had no hope of escape.

Add in how late the beacon was lit, and the fact that darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds when we have an overview shot of the battle after Loghain retreats, and it's safe to say that any charge made to save Cailan would likely end in failure. It was the smart move, but also a politically inexpedient one.  [/quote]

Running away from that disaster wasn't stupid. But the existence of the disaster was entirely Loghain's fault. Cailan was absolutely an idiot for charging out of the bottleneck, but Loghain's "brilliant strategy" that "would suffice" was exactly the disaster that occured. 

It doesn't matter how glory starved Cailan was. The guy was so unspeakbly incompetent that Loghain could just point blank lie to him about what the military engagement would look like and Cailan would believe him since he was just going to get "bored" with his "strategies" anyway.
[/quote][/quote]

And Cailan ignored it, and charged the darkspawn horde and got surrounded on all sides. Trying to make Loghain out as a monster for what happened at Ostagar simply doesn't match the evidence. You're speaking with your passions, and not with logic (I feel like Spock right now.)

[Martyr1777]

How long are all of you going to go round and round in this circle?

Why don't you look at what really happened. Loghain didn't do things right or screw up. The Devs made a mistake. The whole opening of DAO was questionable tactically speaking. I mean the gap at ostagar was tiny but then fought in front of it... guess Thedas never had their Thermopolyae. From the human nobles perspective no one even bats an eye at the attack on Highever. I mean I'm thinking the troops from Highever might have had something to say and being a Teryn's army they couldn't have been a small force. Plus the lack of Howe's troops, both those forces would have changed the planning. Why weren't Eamons forces there for Ostagar, they had something better to do? They talk about how the Warden's can sense the darkspawn but not a single one detected any darkspawn, either hitting the tower or even the ones that ambush you numerous times at the start and after.

After whatever Origin there are a staggering number of plot holes from Ostagar and after. Then, as I've said, the prequel novel broke Loghains personality in DAO.

So love him or hate him, you can talk tactics all you want it wasn't Loghain or Cailans tactics that failed, it was Bioware's.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 14 septembre 2013 - 05:01 .

[Ieldra]

The details of the tactical situation don't matter. whatever "obvious stupidity" may lie there (I certaintly didn't notice any when I played so if there is, it's narratively insignificant), it's because the writers didn't think about it enough. For the story, these facts are important:

(1) Cailan was stupid, He wanted a "war like in the tales" and didn't have a sense for tactics, but he was king and could overrule both Loghain and Duncan in how to proceed with the battle.
(2) Loghain took the opportunity to get Cailan killed because he thought Cailan's plans to cement peace with Orlais by marrying Celene would be a betrayal of Ferelden.

I understand Loghain's motivation and have some sympathy for his stance, but the price for his getting rid of Cailan was a major enemy victory, and by the darkspawn of all things. Since he actually knows something about strategy, I can only conclude that his obsession with Orlais clouded his reason.

@OP:
Isn't the situation you describe impossible? If you recruit Loghain, Alistair won't be king. Apart from that, I think Loghain may go the opposite way of Leliana and fall against the darkspawn between the end of DAO and the start of DAI.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 septembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Let me put it another way. Have you ever played the board game Risk? Sometimes when playing that game, or other strategy games on the computer, heck, even chess is a good analogy....I'm digressing, getting back on track...but sometimes you find yourself under attack by an overwhelming force and there's nothing you can do for it at the time. In the game of chess, one of the last pieces you ever want to lose is th queen, but there was this one game I played where I sacrificed the queen in order to get a checkmate....not the point, but whatever.

Here's the chess analogy: sometimes you have to sacrifice pieces. That's the game. But if you have to sacrifice half your pieces because you thought pawns moved diagonally, you just suck at chess. Loghain's strategy? It was predicated on pawns moving diagonally. 

So you're saying that by holding his forces back, and waiting for a signal that was late, it was a miracle he himself wasn't overrun? And if he led the army out in a retreat, it could be called fleeing, and it is a tactical move.  

I'm saying that his entire plan of spliting his army in two when he had no idea where his enemy was or how numerous they were, and then hoping to loop around them and overwhelm them with superior numbers was just plain dumb. 

Imagine that Teagan never spoke up at the Landsmeet and everyone did fall in line with Loghain.

If we imagine that Loghain could shoot laser from his eyes we could have just shot the archdemon from out of the sky! 

Seriously, if we're at the stage of plans were "imagine that usurping the King's throne doesn't create political opposition by vassals" is a viable option, I prefer my brand of fantasy. 

Loghain got his army and there was no civil war. He would have an army and he could go and face the darkspawn again, unaware that it was a blight, as there had been no sightings of an archdemon...ever, save for Duncan's 'feelings.'

Yes, and the end result would have been the eradication of Ferelden as a state and the continuation of the blight for decades, because the darkspawn would have overrun him since he had absolutely no way to combat it. 

But that's not the point. The point is that things don't adhere to whatever fantasy world someone has planned in their head. And we judge the worth of people's plans not by their ideal scenario in their heads but by the likely scenario on the ground. 

Sometimes in a battle, you have to leave a force behind that will die while you take the larger force away to secure another front. That's called a tactical retreat, and I'm sure that's exactly what Loghain was trying to do....only he isn't a politician and therby grossly miscalculated the bannorn.  

Again - retreating in that situation wasn't wrong. But that situation - and the need to abadon half the army - existed only because of Loghain's incompetence. Calling it a "tactical" retreat mischaractizes the tremendous screw-up that the battle was, and the chain of incompetence on Loghain's part that led to it occuring. 

And he does have a reason to mistrust Grey Wardens, as anyone who would've read the Calling would know. He did see Duncan's predecessor colluding with the Architect to turn everyone into ghouls, after all.  

Which is why his entire objection to them was that they were in league with the darkspawn and not Orlesian spies, right? 

And Cailan ignored it, and charged the darkspawn horde and got surrounded on all sides. Trying to make Loghain out as a monster for what happened at Ostagar simply doesn't match the evidence. You're speaking with your passions, and not with logic (I feel like Spock right now.)  

Cailan charging or not was irrelevant for Loghain's plan, since the whole thing turned on having enough numbers to flank and overwhelm the horde. If Cailan charged a numerically equal or slightly superior horde he'd take heavy losses... but then Loghain should have seen that and tried to adapt. In his own battle plan. I mean, Loghain knew Cailan was an idiot and his contigency plan with the man who had half his force was.... let him be an idiot with zero supervision? Yeah, totally and blatantly incompetent. 

Of course, he set up the battle so he had 0 vantage point on the combat and relied entirely on a lighthouse to observe the battle. Which is another reason he's an incompetent commander, but I didn't want to get into it.

No, Loghain's plan was idiotic. If Cailan did exactly what he asked the result would have been identical. I'm not making Loghain a monster. I'm making him an idiot. He's beyond pragmatism - he's just incompetent. 

The "evidence" is that this "brilliant" general based his entire strategy around numerical superiority when he had no scouts whatsoever. His only plan of attack was thrusting half his force into the heart of the darkspawn horde to flank them. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Former_Fiend]

I hate to get meta but I don't like over-analizing the actual strategic viability of fictional battles. Loghain, as any fictional general, is only as good a strategist as the person writing for him.

The plot demanded that Ostagar be a losing battle, that Loghain flees from the battle with his army, and that he does so in a way that screams treachery. Either due to intention, a lack of understanding of military tactics or a decision not to allocate too many resources to it, Bioware didn't show this in a way that made Loghain come off looking particularly competent at his job.

Given that literally every other military move we hear about him making is a success, I assume it to be one of the latter options.

[In Exile]

Former_Fiend wrote...

I hate to get meta but I don't like over-analizing the actual strategic viability of fictional battles. Loghain, as any fictional general, is only as good a strategist as the person writing for him.

The plot demanded that Ostagar be a losing battle, that Loghain flees from the battle with his army, and that he does so in a way that screams treachery. Either due to intention, a lack of understanding of military tactics or a decision not to allocate too many resources to it, Bioware didn't show this in a way that made Loghain come off looking particularly competent at his job.

Given that literally every other military move we hear about him making is a success, I assume it to be one of the latter options.

The problem is this: Bioware wants to make Loghain some kind of military genius while also making him entirely innocent of having pre-arranged to murder Cailan. 

That means that he had to - in good faith - design a plan to fight the darkspawn that failed. So he either has to comically blunder and fail miserably in the only engagement we see in DA:O, or it has to be intentional. And the way the game portrays it is comical blunder. 

[Former_Fiend]

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I hate to get meta but I don't like over-analizing the actual strategic viability of fictional battles. Loghain, as any fictional general, is only as good a strategist as the person writing for him.

The plot demanded that Ostagar be a losing battle, that Loghain flees from the battle with his army, and that he does so in a way that screams treachery. Either due to intention, a lack of understanding of military tactics or a decision not to allocate too many resources to it, Bioware didn't show this in a way that made Loghain come off looking particularly competent at his job.

Given that literally every other military move we hear about him making is a success, I assume it to be one of the latter options.

The problem is this: Bioware wants to make Loghain some kind of military genius while also making him entirely innocent of having pre-arranged to murder Cailan. 

That means that he had to - in good faith - design a plan to fight the darkspawn that failed. So he either has to comically blunder and fail miserably in the only engagement we see in DA:O, or it has to be intentional. And the way the game portrays it is comical blunder. 

I'm actually more inclined to think it was intentional, given Howe's betrayal of the Couslands. I don't think he necessarily intended for it to go as bad as it did, but he definitely intended for Cailan to die on that field. 

That being said, I also think Loghain was a man with his hands tied in an unwinnable situation. As you pointed out, he didn't have any reliable intelligence because all of his scouts were either being killed or coming back delerious and blabbering about how doomed they were, and not in a way that he could extrapilate any useful data from beyond the fact that the enemy's numbers were growing.

And while we're on bad intel, I think Duncan should have been harping less on the "consider the possibility of the arch demon appearing" topic and more on the "remember, these things can pop out of the ground behind you" topic, not that Loghain would have a way to combat that, regardless. 

Add to that the fact that short of knocking him out and leaving him tied up in his tent, there was nothing Loghain could do to dissuade Cailan from leading that charge. Which might have saved that battle, but only so long for him to be slapped in irons and die awaiting execution when Ostagar was finally overrun in the battle after that.

*sigh* I suppose I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, too. But yes, I do believe Loghain intentionally betrayed Cailan. I never said he wasn't a traitor, just that he wasn't a coward. And I can't begrudge anyone for leaving that idiot to die.

[MWImexico]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
...
The sad thing is that his actions stoked the very fire he was trying desperately to put out.

Yes, Loghain did a lot of mistakes, I agree on that...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

From Loghain's perspective, there were valid reasons to consider the Wardens guilty of some form of betrayal. Not a clear-cut "They turned their blades on the king" but rather their actions (and also their lack of certain actions) did not seem to cast them in a favorable light.

And he was paranoid, ok I also get it. Yet I wonder why he had to accuse the wardens of betrayal if his "tactical retreat" was such a good/right move.

Modifié par MWImexico, 14 septembre 2013 - 10:47 .

[Captain Obvious]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The details of the tactical situation don't matter. whatever "obvious stupidity" may lie there (I certaintly didn't notice any when I played so if there is, it's narratively insignificant), it's because the writers didn't think about it enough. For the story, these facts are important:

(1) Cailan was stupid, He wanted a "war like in the tales" and didn't have a sense for tactics, but he was king and could overrule both Loghain and Duncan in how to proceed with the battle.
(2) Loghain took the opportunity to get Cailan killed because he thought Cailan's plans to cement peace with Orlais by marrying Celene would be a betrayal of Ferelden.

I understand Loghain's motivation and have some sympathy for his stance, but the price for his getting rid of Cailan was a major enemy victory, and by the darkspawn of all things. Since he actually knows something about strategy, I can only conclude that his obsession with Orlais clouded his reason.

@OP:
Isn't the situation you describe impossible? If you recruit Loghain, Alistair won't be king. Apart from that, I think Loghain may go the opposite way of Leliana and fall against the darkspawn between the end of DAO and the start of DAI.

If you harden Alistair, you can have him be King AND recruit Loghain. 

Furthermore, Loghain only took the opportunity to make a tactical retreat. The battle was lost. It was as simple as that.