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[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Where is it stated that Ostagar was doomed a battle even if Loghain had attacked? I'm just curious because the only really comment I remember in DA:O about the battle said the King was winning but without the flanking attack, the tide turned against them. Which err sounds like it was possible they could have won and that it was a power grab.

That was also what I thought from the events in the game itself.

I don't own Return to Ostagar though, and I'm genuinely wondering where it is confirmed?

[Martyr1777]

Former_Fiend wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I hate to get meta but I don't like over-analizing the actual strategic viability of fictional battles. Loghain, as any fictional general, is only as good a strategist as the person writing for him.

The plot demanded that Ostagar be a losing battle, that Loghain flees from the battle with his army, and that he does so in a way that screams treachery. Either due to intention, a lack of understanding of military tactics or a decision not to allocate too many resources to it, Bioware didn't show this in a way that made Loghain come off looking particularly competent at his job.

Given that literally every other military move we hear about him making is a success, I assume it to be one of the latter options.

The problem is this: Bioware wants to make Loghain some kind of military genius while also making him entirely innocent of having pre-arranged to murder Cailan. 

That means that he had to - in good faith - design a plan to fight the darkspawn that failed. So he either has to comically blunder and fail miserably in the only engagement we see in DA:O, or it has to be intentional. And the way the game portrays it is comical blunder. 

I'm actually more inclined to think it was intentional, given Howe's betrayal of the Couslands. I don't think he necessarily intended for it to go as bad as it did, but he definitely intended for Cailan to die on that field. 

That being said, I also think Loghain was a man with his hands tied in an unwinnable situation. As you pointed out, he didn't have any reliable intelligence because all of his scouts were either being killed or coming back delerious and blabbering about how doomed they were, and not in a way that he could extrapilate any useful data from beyond the fact that the enemy's numbers were growing.

And while we're on bad intel, I think Duncan should have been harping less on the "consider the possibility of the arch demon appearing" topic and more on the "remember, these things can pop out of the ground behind you" topic, not that Loghain would have a way to combat that, regardless. 

Add to that the fact that short of knocking him out and leaving him tied up in his tent, there was nothing Loghain could do to dissuade Cailan from leading that charge. Which might have saved that battle, but only so long for him to be slapped in irons and die awaiting execution when Ostagar was finally overrun in the battle after that.

*sigh* I suppose I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, too. But yes, I do believe Loghain intentionally betrayed Cailan. I never said he wasn't a traitor, just that he wasn't a coward. And I can't begrudge anyone for leaving that idiot to die.

I can't really blame anyone for bailing on Cailan either to be honest. But again, I think that was more failure in writing the character then anything else. I mean he was just stupidly overconfident and when you have your top advisor and the Wardens saying its a bad idea and ignoring them well yeah thats just blah. I mean he's so in awe of the Wardens but completely ignores their council? What sense does that make, it would have made more sense if they had writen it so Loghain did what he did more to get Duncan killed to prevent the Orlisian Wardens from coming and some how Cailan got in the mix.

When I first played DAO Loghain was just a traitor and everything was fine and good. But like I've said, after reading the books I have so much more problem with the Ostagar thing because I think of Loghain as a good and very loyal character and Ostagar NEVER would have played out like it did if they had him completely fleshed out like for the books.

There are just oo many holes in the story that don't make sense when you begin analyzing it like this thread has.

[Milan92]

Best case scenario: He dies on screen.

Worst case scenario: He dies offscreen.

Mostly likely to happen: He gets killed off on Twitter.

[Master Warder Z_]

Spectre slayer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Loghain's too old. Mr. Gaider has said that 30 years is a high-end estimate. Those recruited during a blight live far shorter spans. Loghain was already an old man. It's unlikely the taint would've spared him the ten years between DAO and DAI.

What about the three since his last previous mention at being alive?

I think chances are decent he is still around.

He could be dead already but that depends on how much willpower he has and how long he can hold off his calling according to Gaider it can be anywhere from 5 years to a 30 year maximum and Alistair quote shouldn't be taken as fact.

DG: It's something I put in Alistair's dialogue that I now regret! Afterwards I was like, "Wow, thirty years is a long time for that time frame." I didn't really intend when I was writing it, and only afterwards when I went back I said "Oh...I guess it does sort of implies thirty years after you take the Calling, doesn't it..." Sorry, after you take the Joining. That wasn't really my intention.

But it's out there now so I'm like, okay, thirty years. But the idea is also that it varies. Thirty years is the maximum that you could probably expect. It's going to vary for an individual according to their willpower and the level of their interaction with the darkspawn.

During a Blight you can expect that the Grey Wardens are going to have shorter lifespans. Outside of a Blight the Grey Wardens would tend to live longer. We have instances in the game of people going on their Calling after five or ten years. Alistair's thirty year quote shouldn't be taken as gospel, that's the way I like it. 

DG: Well, if Duncan was thirty years old, he would look pretty good for thirty. Yeah, so it's supposed to be a maximum thirty years after you take the [Joining] but it can vary, so I'd say the rule of thumb right now is between ten and thirty years, is the most common.

 


He's already pushing it as it is since it's been about 10-11 years already and due to how old he is,  though he might still be alive but we'll have to wait and see.

Except Gaider stated Alistair's comment shouldn't be taken as Gospel but it does seem to be about around that generally.

I cited a source of one Warden the Warden Commader prior to Ducan actually whom literally was in the Wardens for 30+ Years.

You have most Wardens heading to their calling thirty or so years into being a Warden admittedly this is Pre Blight but still, The one thing that i think that would throw Loghain off more then anything is him being in his early fifties by Orgins.

He was already getting up there in Years.

That said i would think given its literally only been a handful of Years since Alistair was whining about him being alive he should still be around.

[Former_Fiend]

The way I see it, if Simon Templeman can't make it due to scheduling conflicts, or if he goes insane and demands an outrageous amounts of money, they have an out and can kill Loghain off.

That isn't to say they're under any obligation to do so. They don't have to kill him at ten years. They've got plenty of wiggle room if they want to keep him around.

I really hope he does come back partly because Simon Templeman is my favorite voice actor and Loghain's arguably my favorite character in DA, flaws and all.

[In Exile]

Former_Fiend wrote...
I'm actually more inclined to think it was intentional, given Howe's betrayal of the Couslands. I don't think he necessarily intended for it to go as bad as it did, but he definitely intended for Cailan to die on that field.  

That was always my view, but DG is on record that:

1. Loghain and Howe did not conspire prior to Ostagar. 
2. Loghain did not intend for Cailan to die until the night of the battle.
3. Loghain did not move against Eamon until after the battle. 

While we were at Ostagar, Loghain is - by word of god - still wrestling with his decision and what to do.

As you pointed out, he didn't have any reliable intelligence because all of his scouts were either being killed or coming back delerious and blabbering about how doomed they were, and not in a way that he could extrapilate any useful data from beyond the fact that the enemy's numbers were growing.  

Yes, but the reaction to that is adapting. I'm not saying Loghain should have predicted darkspawn numbers. I'm saying basing his entire strategy - with no contigency plan - on numerical superiority in that circumstance was incompetent. 

 

And while we're on bad intel, I think Duncan should have been harping less on the "consider the possibility of the arch demon appearing" topic and more on the "remember, these things can pop out of the ground behind you" topic, not that Loghain would have a way to combat that, regardless.   

Duncan is also an idiot. Even putting aside his obsession with secrecy, he was stupid enough to agree that all GWs should be in the vanguard. That's a wet dream for the archdemon! It just has to stay up in the air and away and the only thing that can kill it in Ferelden is isolated in a sorrounded killzone. 

*sigh* I suppose I'm trying to have my cake and eat it, too. But yes, I do believe Loghain intentionally betrayed Cailan. I never said he wasn't a traitor, just that he wasn't a coward. And I can't begrudge anyone for leaving that idiot to die.  

I don't think Loghain is a coward. I think he's either a villan every bit as bad as Howe or an idiot. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Former_Fiend wrote...

The way I see it, if Simon Templeman can't make it due to scheduling conflicts, or if he goes insane and demands an outrageous amounts of money, they have an out and can kill Loghain off.

That isn't to say they're under any obligation to do so. They don't have to kill him at ten years. They've got plenty of wiggle room if they want to keep him around.

I really hope he does come back partly because Simon Templeman is my favorite voice actor and Loghain's arguably my favorite character in DA, flaws and all.

I really do hope he comes back.

And Templemen is a good VA.

[Silfren]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

The way I see it, if Simon Templeman can't make it due to scheduling conflicts, or if he goes insane and demands an outrageous amounts of money, they have an out and can kill Loghain off.

That isn't to say they're under any obligation to do so. They don't have to kill him at ten years. They've got plenty of wiggle room if they want to keep him around.

I really hope he does come back partly because Simon Templeman is my favorite voice actor and Loghain's arguably my favorite character in DA, flaws and all.

I really do hope he comes back.

And Templemen is a good VA.

And it's not like the 30 years thing is a hard and fast rule.  It happens all the time that people live many years longer than anyone expects them to, seemingly for no other reason than sheer ornery-ness.  Like him or hate him, Loghain's a curmudgeonly old bastard, exactly the kind of character who would live a decade or two beyond his presumed lifespan just to ****** people off.

I believe the Warden Commander mentioned in the Soldier's Peak codices was in his 60s, which seems to defy the 'Wardens don't get old/30 years is the maximum" thing.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 septembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

Where is it stated that Ostagar was doomed a battle even if Loghain had attacked? I'm just curious because the only really comment I remember in DA:O about the battle said the King was winning but without the flanking attack, the tide turned against them. Which err sounds like it was possible they could have won and that it was a power grab.

That was also what I thought from the events in the game itself.

I don't own Return to Ostagar though, and I'm genuinely wondering where it is confirmed?

In Return to Ostagar when you meet King Cailan's honour guard (who is also a close friend of Cailan) says:

"The Darkspawn were too many" and "Even Cailan, with all his bravado, knew that their would be no victory at Ostagar".

[Silfren]

MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

Where is it stated that Ostagar was doomed a battle even if Loghain had attacked? I'm just curious because the only really comment I remember in DA:O about the battle said the King was winning but without the flanking attack, the tide turned against them. Which err sounds like it was possible they could have won and that it was a power grab.

That was also what I thought from the events in the game itself.

I don't own Return to Ostagar though, and I'm genuinely wondering where it is confirmed?

If you travel to Bann Loren's lands (a spot on the map only available if you have Return to Ostagar) you have an encounter with one of Cailan's honor guards, who tells you "Cailan knew there would be no victory at Ostagar,"

Which I've never understood because it makes the entire prologue of Ostagar nonsensical--that whole thing only makes sense if Cailan is actually foolish enough and idealistic enough to believe Ostagar is winnable.  To have it suggested that he knew all along it was suicidal makes him more than a foolish young glory hound, but a man who is, arguably, insane. 

[Silfren]

Ha. DarkKnightHolmes and I had the same idea at the same moment.

[MWImexico]

For what it worth, Wynne tells you this when you first meet her at Ostagar :
"The king must always seems confident, his behaviour affects the troops morale"
But yeah, the front line was a bad idea.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
Which I've never understood because it makes the entire prologue of Ostagar nonsensical--that whole thing only makes sense if Cailan is actually foolish enough and idealistic enough to believe Ostagar is winnable.  To have it suggested that he knew all along it was suicidal makes him more than a foolish young glory hound, but a man who is, arguably, insane. 

.... He prefered a sucidal fight with the darkspawn to returning to Anora?

[Former_Fiend]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Which I've never understood because it makes the entire prologue of Ostagar nonsensical--that whole thing only makes sense if Cailan is actually foolish enough and idealistic enough to believe Ostagar is winnable.  To have it suggested that he knew all along it was suicidal makes him more than a foolish young glory hound, but a man who is, arguably, insane. 

.... He prefered a sucidal fight with the darkspawn to returning to Anora?

There are easier ways of killing yourself.

[In Exile]

Former_Fiend wrote...

There are easier ways of killing yourself.

Maybe he wanted a glorious way to kill himsef? Maybe he really wanted to go down in the history books as an idiot?

[The Hierophant]

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

There are easier ways of killing yourself.

Maybe he wanted a glorious way to kill himsef? Maybe he really wanted to go down in the history books as an idiot?

It's sad that he had to take so many people with him.

[Former_Fiend]

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

There are easier ways of killing yourself.

Maybe he wanted a glorious way to kill himsef? Maybe he really wanted to go down in the history books as an idiot?

Lets go with the latter.

[Karlone123]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

The way I see it, if Simon Templeman can't make it due to scheduling conflicts, or if he goes insane and demands an outrageous amounts of money, they have an out and can kill Loghain off.

That isn't to say they're under any obligation to do so. They don't have to kill him at ten years. They've got plenty of wiggle room if they want to keep him around.

I really hope he does come back partly because Simon Templeman is my favorite voice actor and Loghain's arguably my favorite character in DA, flaws and all.

I really do hope he comes back.

And Templemen is a good VA.

So do I, I wish I could put on his voice when I shout.

[Former_Fiend]

I also would like to say that I don't think it makes much sense to have Alistair keep showing up and not Loghain when Loghain's situation is so much less fluid than Alistair's.

Alistair could be a warden, a king(with Anora, femwarden, or alone), a drunk, a martyr, or an executed prisoner, and whether he was hardened or unhardened affects any of those outcomes.

Loghain was either executed, sacrificed himself, or is a warden. That's three options compared to five and only one option where he could conceivably show up compared to three for Alistair. And there's no hardening with him; his personality is what it is(not to say he doesn't have any growth or development, but his development is set, not at the whim of the player).

So it seems to me that Loghain would be much easier to bring over compared to the different versions of Alistair you'd have to script for.

[In Exile]

Yeah, but Alistair is more popular. Lots more.

[Former_Fiend]

Yea, I'm not saying don't put in the effort for Alistair. I'm just saying putting Loghain in would require considerably less effort.

[AresKeith]

Honestly if he's still alive, a cameo in Orlais is all he needs

[GreyLycanTrope]

AresKeith wrote...

Honestly if he's still alive, a cameo in Orlais is all he needs

Like he'd set foot in Orlais, maybe when at the head of an army.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 14 septembre 2013 - 08:29 .

[Former_Fiend]

Greylycantrope wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Honestly if he's still alive, a cameo in Orlais is all he needs

Like he'd set foot in Orlais, maybe when at the head of an army.

In Origins and Awakening it's mentioned he's being sent to Orlais to work with the Wardens there while the Warden heads up the efforts in Ferelden. 

Apparently after the whole, coup attempt, they've decided that keeping him out of Ferelden is a good idea. 

And he seems more intrigued by it than anything, though mildly annoyed. 

I personally think there's some great potential for story there.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Well, I'd argue that Cailan failed in general, but for the most part, yea.

Thing is, recruting Loghain to the wardens is taking him out of politics and putting him somewhere where he can be useful. 

Don't get me wrong, I did recruit him myself; I prefer not to kill people when possible. However, the Alienage situation was absolutely indefensible and a symptom of his not considering the elves Lordaeron's people.

My Warden recruited Loghain into the Wardens as well, and I think part of Loghain's arc (if he's spared) is trying to atone for his mistakes (such as the enslavement of the Denerim elves, which I imagine was put into motion by Arl Howe).

Xilizhra wrote...

I would prefer for people to stop remembering him as a hero, and I would never have him do the Archdemon kill (not that it's necessary, as I always do the DR, but still). 

My Surana Warden performed the Dark Ritual with Morrigan (although I think Loghain performed with Morrigan for your Warden), but I don't take issue with some people still looking at Loghain as a hero. He did some terrible things, and he acknowledges that, to the point where he's willing to sacrifice his life to atone for his mistakes; he even keeps his musings on The Warden being alive a secret, when it's addressed that the other members of the order are "curious" as to why the Hero of Ferelden is still alive (post-Dark Ritual).

Pragmatically speaking, I think Loghain's legend as the Hero of River Dane would benefit the Wardens, since it ties the man who helped overthrow a hundred years of Orlesian occupation with an order that has a mixed reputation in the nation. I think the First Warden would be pleased, with a Grey Warden on the throne, the Hero of River Dane turned Grey Warden, and the Hero of Ferelden (potentially) becoming successful and even more popular as the Arl of Amaranthine.