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[Master Warder Z_]

I can picture Loghain as the Warden Commander of Orlais in DA:I.

I do hope he makes a Cameo as such.

[Former_Fiend]

In my ideal scenario it would be more than a cameo.

I suspect, and could well be wrong, that we'll be dealing with the Wardens as a major faction in Inquisition, along with the Templars, Mages, and other groups.

Who's leading them would depend on choices made in Origins, and could potentially have as big an impact on the game as the difference between Wrex and Wreav leading clan Urdnot.

If Alistair is alive and a warden, have him be in charge. This would cause tension between him and Anora(I believe Ferelden will also be on the faction list) due to the death of Loghain, especially if Alistair personally killed him.

If Loghain is alive, have him lead them. If Anora is queen, relations with Ferelden would be improved. If Alistair is king, relations would be even rockier than between Anora and Warden Alistair.

If Loghain is dead and Alistair is king, have Oghren or Stroud be the warden commander. Not sure how that would play out, though.

In any case, I'd like to see Oghren as Loghain or Alistair's second in command. I think that would be hilarious.

[Master Warder Z_]

As you said earlier he would certainly be far easier to use then Alistair.

And i do have a feeling he would play a supportive hand for the Inquisitor assuming you could win him over. We already know we have to balance factions here, getting an impartial group like the Wardens on your side likely would involve quite a few strings being tied and a few hands being greased.

It wouldn't be a simple as paying them or fetching something, You likely would only be able to align with groups they were Pro to.

You would also definitely have toe the line as far as the civil war went; I doubt he cares for either side or whom won it, but Wardens are not permitted to be used in base political power struggles. Outside of the Anderfels anyway where their Leader is basically the defacto King.

[Master Warder Z_]

Also maybe Loghain act as a Mentor or something to a Warrior Inquisitor much in the way Duncan provided a mentor role in DAO. that certainly would be interesting and i do think you could do worse then learning the sword from him.

We still have no idea after all in which ways the Inquisitor will interact with the various factions; Maybe you can pick up a few tricks or techniques from them if your agreeable and have the capacity to learn.

You know returning to specializations the way we got them in Origins, Having to interact and encounter and then unlock them.

[Dabrikishaw]

eluvianix wrote...

He died, so he will have no direct affect on my game.

[Xilizhra]

My Warden recruited Loghain into the Wardens as well, and I think part of Loghain's arc (if he's spared) is trying to atone for his mistakes (such as the enslavement of the Denerim elves, which I imagine was put into motion by Arl Howe).

Regardless of whether or not Howe put it into motion, Loghain still approved of it (and the slavers mention evidence against Loghain directly, so I suspect he was involved personally). And what did he do to atone for that one in particular? It still indicates he didn't see them as Fereldan citizens.

My Surana Warden performed the Dark Ritual with Morrigan (although I think Loghain performed with Morrigan for your Warden), but I don't take issue with some people still looking at Loghain as a hero. He did some terrible things, and he acknowledges that, to the point where he's willing to sacrifice his life to atone for his mistakes; he even keeps his musings on The Warden being alive a secret, when it's addressed that the other members of the order are "curious" as to why the Hero of Ferelden is still alive (post-Dark Ritual).

If he can find redemption, fine. I'm all for that. It's just that redemption si definitely required.

[TEWR]

And what did he do to atone for that one in particular? It still indicates he didn't see them as Fereldan citizens.

Well, he does acknowledge how it's one of his many failings and he'll also state that the Warden's efforts stopped the garnering of funds at a point where the treasury was only a third of the way full (for raw numbers, only a few dozen Elves had been shipped out of the Alienage). His intention was to use the money gained from this to supply not only the army with weapons and armor, but also the Elves remaining so they could defend themselves.

Not defending the slavery issue (though were I Loghain and in the same position, I probably would've gone through with it as well). Just throwing out some factoids from conversing with Loghain.

And for what it's worth, Loghain's all about making the hard choices, with the knowledge that what's sometimes necessary isn't morally acceptable.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And what did he do to atone for that one in particular? It still indicates he didn't see them as Fereldan citizens.

Well, he does acknowledge how it's one of his many failings and he'll also state that the Warden's efforts stopped the garnering of funds at a point where the treasury was only a third of the way full (for raw numbers, only a few dozen Elves had been shipped out of the Alienage). His intention was to use the money gained from this to supply not only the army with weapons and armor, but also the Elves remaining so they could defend themselves.

Not defending the slavery issue (though were I Loghain and in the same position, I probably would've gone through with it as well). Just throwing out some factoids from conversing with Loghain.

And for what it's worth, Loghain's all about making the hard choices, with the knowledge that what's sometimes necessary isn't morally acceptable.

Which is funny, because what Loghain did was neither. In fact, it was universally counterproductive.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And for what it's worth, Loghain's all about making the hard choices, with the knowledge that what's sometimes necessary isn't morally acceptable.

Loghain's all about making "hard" choices when the easy choice is staring right in front of him. If Anora had a cough as a baby he'd debate the morality of having all of Denerim die of the plague versus smothering his own child with a pillow. 

[dragonflight288]

If he can find redemption, fine. I'm all for that. It's just that redemption si definitely required.

But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him.

I started this thread initially, one because after my latest playthrough where I spared Loghain and did the Dark Ritual, I got curious on how he would affect things seeing as he's going to be in Orlais as well, was hoping he'd make a good solid cameo, or maybe more than that and ultimately see if he can mak good on his chance to atone for all the rotten stuff he did as reagent of Ferelden.

I intend to have three initial imported playthroughs. One is my latest playthough, with my Amell warden, who let Loghain live, and did the Dark Ritual, and in my other two playthroughs, he's going to die.

But what he says to me in camp, conversation, and what he says in party banter with the others, as well as what he said to Wynne in Return to Ostagar, has given me a new perspective I previously lacked, and I have come to like him. I won't defend the morality of his actions as that is not in question, but I won't say every bad thing that happened politically was his fault either.

Take what he says, add onto what we already know, and we have a much more rounded character than the two-bit villain that Alistair adamantly believes he is, and refuses to deny.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And for what it's worth, Loghain's all about making the hard choices, with the knowledge that what's sometimes necessary isn't morally acceptable.

Loghain's all about making "hard" choices when the easy choice is staring right in front of him. If Anora had a cough as a baby he'd debate the morality of having all of Denerim die of the plague versus smothering his own child with a pillow. 

Your evidence?

[Xilizhra]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If he can find redemption, fine. I'm all for that. It's just that redemption si definitely required.

But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him.

I started this thread initially, one because after my latest playthrough where I spared Loghain and did the Dark Ritual, I got curious on how he would affect things seeing as he's going to be in Orlais as well, was hoping he'd make a good solid cameo, or maybe more than that and ultimately see if he can mak good on his chance to atone for all the rotten stuff he did as reagent of Ferelden.

I intend to have three initial imported playthroughs. One is my latest playthough, with my Amell warden, who let Loghain live, and did the Dark Ritual, and in my other two playthroughs, he's going to die.

But what he says to me in camp, conversation, and what he says in party banter with the others, as well as what he said to Wynne in Return to Ostagar, has given me a new perspective I previously lacked, and I have come to like him. I won't defend the morality of his actions as that is not in question, but I won't say every bad thing that happened politically was his fault either.

Take what he says, add onto what we already know, and we have a much more rounded character than the two-bit villain that Alistair adamantly believes he is, and refuses to deny.

I do spare him, again. However, I can't say that he didn't completely ruin the political situation more or less singlehandedly aside from being morally repulsive. I save him not because he's any good, but because I don't like killing people when I can help it, and because he might be useful.

[MWImexico]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And for what it's worth, Loghain's all about making the hard choices, with the knowledge that what's sometimes necessary isn't morally acceptable.

There is a moment when the possibility of being invaded by Orlais should be considered preferable to :
-being crushed by the darkspawn
-or become an assh*le not better than what Orlais could offer during an invasion.

At worst, you still got the possibility to kick the invader out, soon or later.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

If he can find redemption, fine. I'm all for that. It's just that redemption si definitely required.

But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him.

I started this thread initially, one because after my latest playthrough where I spared Loghain and did the Dark Ritual, I got curious on how he would affect things seeing as he's going to be in Orlais as well, was hoping he'd make a good solid cameo, or maybe more than that and ultimately see if he can mak good on his chance to atone for all the rotten stuff he did as reagent of Ferelden.

I intend to have three initial imported playthroughs. One is my latest playthough, with my Amell warden, who let Loghain live, and did the Dark Ritual, and in my other two playthroughs, he's going to die.

But what he says to me in camp, conversation, and what he says in party banter with the others, as well as what he said to Wynne in Return to Ostagar, has given me a new perspective I previously lacked, and I have come to like him. I won't defend the morality of his actions as that is not in question, but I won't say every bad thing that happened politically was his fault either.

Take what he says, add onto what we already know, and we have a much more rounded character than the two-bit villain that Alistair adamantly believes he is, and refuses to deny.

I do spare him, again. However, I can't say that he didn't completely ruin the political situation more or less singlehandedly aside from being morally repulsive. I save him not because he's any good, but because I don't like killing people when I can help it, and because he might be useful.

Fair enough. More or less my opinion as well. And he does have legitmate points. And there is in-game evidence that Orlais was sending far more soldiers to Ferelden than had been reported, so Loghain was partially correct about Orlais.

[Xilizhra]

Points like what?

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

Points like what?

Well, I truly believe Orlais had every intention of occupying Ferelden, rather than leave once the Blight was vanquished, and I say this for two reasons.

One, the number of soldiers Orlais was sending was over ten times the size Loghain said in the Landsmeet, and we get the numbers direct from Riordin after rescuing him from Howe. Loghain says that the Orlesians were sending 4 legions of Chevalier's. However, a legion is 3,000 soldiers. Riordin, on the other hand, said he came with 400 wardens and 200 divisions of calvary. Now a division can be anywhere from 1,000 to 1,200 soldiers. 4 Legions is 12,000 soldiers. 200 divisions is 200,000 soldiers minimum. 12,000 is a good number for reinforcing another nation, 200,000 sounds closer to invasion.

The second reason are the letters we find from Cailan, Celene and Eamon at Ostagar, and how Cailan was quite likely to put Anora aside and marry Celene, as Eamon was urging him to do (not marry Celene, but put Anora aside.) If Cailan and Celene married, I suspect those 200,000 soldiers would be very useful to keep Ferelden in check while it is turned into Orlais through marriage.

Simply put, the sheer number of soldiers Riordin says is coming is so much larger than what Loghain announces at the Landsmeet, that I can't help but feel he's right about Orlais.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
One, the number of soldiers Orlais was sending was over ten times the size Loghain said in the Landsmeet, and we get the numbers direct from Riordin after rescuing him from Howe. Loghain says that the Orlesians were sending 4 legions of Chevalier's. However, a legion is 3,000 soldiers. Riordin, on the other hand, said he came with 400 wardens and 200 divisions of calvary. Now a division can be anywhere from 1,000 to 1,200 soldiers. 4 Legions is 12,000 soldiers. 200 divisions is 200,000 soldiers minimum. 12,000 is a good number for reinforcing another nation, 200,000 sounds closer to invasion.

Let's break this down, because it's confusing:

• They want to conquer Ferelden.
• They bring 200,000 soldiers to the border.
• 200,000 soliders is tantamount to an invasion.
• A random Ferelden says "Go home."
• The invading army obliges.
• ...Profit?

[dragonflight288]

Let's break this down, because it's confusing:

They want to conquer Ferelden.

They bring 200,000 soldiers to the border.

200,000 soliders is tantamount to an invasion.

A random Ferelden says "Go home."

The invading army obliges.

...Profit?

I highly doubt that it was a random Ferelden. Chances are there were plenty of armed forces in a highly defensible location saying 'bugger off.' There's no proof, and it's not important to the story, as the story followed the Warden defeating the Blight, not Loghain and his Ferelden/Orlais politics and how he enforced them.

But what we do have is Loghain saying 4 legions, and Riordin saying 200 divisons.

I personally think that it was politics that stayed the Orlesians hands myself, because they were being sent officially to aid in the blight, if they are being told they aren't needed, then the official reasons are void. Had they actually crossed the border anyway, it would only prove Loghain right, and he would lose his antagonist/villain status of the game itself, that makes him such a controversial figure in the game.

[MWImexico]

dragonflight288 wrote...
..
But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him. 

He didn't spare Katriel and I still wonder why.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

MWImexico wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
..
But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him. 

He didn't spare Katriel and I still wonder why.

Maybe because she was a spy working for another country?

Just a wild guess. /s

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:53 .

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I highly doubt that it was a random Ferelden. Chances are there were plenty of armed forces in a highly defensible location saying 'bugger off.' There's no proof, and it's not important to the story, as the story followed the Warden defeating the Blight, not Loghain and his Ferelden/Orlais politics and how he enforced them.

But what we do have is Loghain saying 4 legions, and Riordin saying 200 divisons.

I personally think that it was politics that stayed the Orlesians hands myself, because they were being sent officially to aid in the blight, if they are being told they aren't needed, then the official reasons are void. Had they actually crossed the border anyway, it would only prove Loghain right, and he would lose his antagonist/villain status of the game itself, that makes him such a controversial figure in the game.

There is also the intended marriage between Cailan and Celene to consider as a factor, since Orlais would effectively control Ferelden through such a union.

[MWImexico]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
..
But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him. 

He didn't spare Katriel and I still wonder why.

Maybe because she was a spy working for another country?

Just a wild guess. /s

*spoiler* Before her death, Loghain had the proof she was on Maric side, but he didn't give this information to Maric. She was indeed a traitor but towards the end she changes sides because of her love for Maric.

edit : Also, if the warden and Alistair had died in Ostagar, I suppose the army of Orlais would have been very welcome to fight against the Archdemon before he crushes Denerim. (the civil wars would have happen anyway)

Modifié par MWImexico, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Master Warder Z_]

MWImexico wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
..
But in order to find redemption, he has to be given the chance, and that means sparing him. 

He didn't spare Katriel and I still wonder why.

Maybe because she was a spy working for another country?

Just a wild guess. /s

*spoiler* Before her death, Loghain had the proof she was on Maric side, but he didn't give this information to Maric. She was indeed a traitor but towards the end she changes sides because of her love for Maric.

edit : Also, if the warden and Alistair had died in Ostagar, I suppose the army of Orlais would have been very welcome to fight against the Archdemon before he crushes Denerim. (the civil wars would have happen anyway)

As Leia said of Darth Vader.

Ten minutes of Redemption does not make up for decades of Atrocity.

The elf was a traitor to the Nation and its liege.

[MWImexico]

Define atrocity so I could tell you if what Loghain did enters in that category. 

Cause for him it's less than 10 min of redemption ...

Modifié par MWImexico, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:49 .

[Master Warder Z_]

MWImexico wrote...

Define atrocity so I could tell you if what Loghain did enters in that category. 

Cause for him it's less than 10 min of redemption ...

That's presuming he needs it i suppose.

I have already stated my feelings that he doesn't.

He acknowleged he was at fault and he was to some extent. but i don't blame him for Ostagar that was calian and his vanity.