375 réponses à ce sujet

[MWImexico]

Maybe it's not as simple. Put all the responsibility on one man, knowing he relied a lot on Loghain's support and strategies... at least if he hadn't accused the wardens falsely, I could have understood.

[Master Warder Z_]

That likely was a suggestion of Howe's and a practicable one considering most thought the Wardens Extinct.

They were an easy to use scapegoat to turn the eyes of the masses to.

[MWImexico]

Yeah, and again this is all but Logain's fault.

[Master Warder Z_]

MWImexico wrote...

Yeah, and again this is all but Logain's fault.

He failed at the Task presented to him, I don't deny that either if you have looked at my prior agruments.

But i also acknowledge the Task had a very low chance of success to begin with mainly due to Calian.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
One, the number of soldiers Orlais was sending was over ten times the size Loghain said in the Landsmeet, and we get the numbers direct from Riordin after rescuing him from Howe. Loghain says that the Orlesians were sending 4 legions of Chevalier's. However, a legion is 3,000 soldiers. Riordin, on the other hand, said he came with 400 wardens and 200 divisions of calvary. Now a division can be anywhere from 1,000 to 1,200 soldiers. 4 Legions is 12,000 soldiers. 200 divisions is 200,000 soldiers minimum. 12,000 is a good number for reinforcing another nation, 200,000 sounds closer to invasion.

Let's break this down, because it's confusing:
They want to conquer Ferelden.
They bring 200,000 soldiers to the border.
200,000 soliders is tantamount to an invasion.
A random Ferelden says "Go home."
The invading army obliges.

...Profit?

Not really. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Orlais comes and helps out while politics gets in the way of warfare (really, are we going to assume Orlesians would just happily take orders from Loghain without snide insults and "**** no!" flying around?) and then they never leave once the fighting does eventually end...

...or the Orlesian troops wait at the border so that Ferelden can kill itself from within and then they can repeat their time-worn tradition of "saving the nigh-destroyed nation, and then never leaving".

They've done it thrice in the past, twice during Blights and once during the Qunari invasion of Kirkwall.

Orlais' history is not in its favor.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which is funny, because what Loghain did was neither. In fact, it was universally counterproductive.

It was actually the only way money could've been raised for the treasury at a quick enough rate, I feel. The Circle wasn't on Loghain's side, so they Lucrosians/Formari aren't going to help (and sure enough, the Warden can't even begin to suggest that!) and Ferelden doesn't have enough resources of its own to do it.

Had Howe not been embezzling funds from the treasury, had the Bannorn not started the civil war by throwing the first physical punch (figurative is arguable), and had the Circle aligned with Loghain... money wouldn't have been an issue.

[duckley]

Putting Ostagar aside - Loghain tried to assasinate the Wardens, poison Eamon, persuade Uldred to revolt, supported slave traders and ignored Howe's murdering rampage. His actions were criminal and immoral.

For his fans out there - I hope based on your imports, you get to see him. As for me, no thanks!

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Which is funny, because what Loghain did was neither. In fact, it was universally counterproductive.

It was actually the only way money could've been raised for the treasury at a quick enough rate, I feel. The Circle wasn't on Loghain's side, so they Lucrosians/Formari aren't going to help (and sure enough, the Warden can't even begin to suggest that!) and Ferelden doesn't have enough resources of its own to do it.

Had Howe not been embezzling funds from the treasury, had the Bannorn not started the civil war by throwing the first physical punch (figurative is arguable), and had the Circle aligned with Loghain... money wouldn't have been an issue.

Money would never have been an issue if Loghain hadn't been a moron to begin with. He dug his own hole and then dug more holes to get out of it because he couldn't stand to admit error.

[TEWR]

Eh, the political situation's blame following Ostagar -- which dictated all that followed -- is, at least, about 60 percent Bannorn, 40 Loghain if you ask me. The Bannorn were the ones who prioritized politics over the Darkspawn (Blight or no, they were the immediate threat) and they struck the first blow.

But that's just me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 septembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Former_Fiend]

For the record, atonement and redemption don't enter into the equation for me. It's a simple matter; killing him doesn't accomplish anything but make Alistair happy. Recruiting him gives you an asset; he can't atone, he can't redeem himself, but he can be of use.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Which is funny, because what Loghain did was neither. In fact, it was universally counterproductive.

It was actually the only way money could've been raised for the treasury at a quick enough rate, I feel. The Circle wasn't on Loghain's side, so they Lucrosians/Formari aren't going to help (and sure enough, the Warden can't even begin to suggest that!) and Ferelden doesn't have enough resources of its own to do it.

Had Howe not been embezzling funds from the treasury, had the Bannorn not started the civil war by throwing the first physical punch (figurative is arguable), and had the Circle aligned with Loghain... money wouldn't have been an issue.

Money would never have been an issue if Loghain hadn't been a moron to begin with. He dug his own hole and then dug more holes to get out of it because he couldn't stand to admit error.

Which error? He abandoned Ostagar and needed more men? He should've sacrificed the whole army to save one man? Or that he came across as abrupt at the Landsmeet, and the bannorn tried to fill in the power vacuum, and a civil war broke out? Should he have gone and faced the darkspawn himself, and allow the bannorn to try and attack him from behind so they could seize power?

[MWImexico]

It's a tough question. I think that at least he should have tried , because rumors spreads, you know, and his retreat appeared very fortuitous. Then after that, he lied about the GWs. Poeple can easily understand that there is something fishy here. The soldiers who survived Ostagar didn't understood why Loghain didn't joined the battle (see Aveline). Then, I suppose the bannorn asked themselves the same question : should they ally themselves to a (possible) kingslayer or not? Maybe they also underestimated the threat that represented the blight (but I won't blame them on that since Loghain did the same).

This said, I hope Loghain's fans will have the opportunity to see their wish granted. That would be fair. Loghain is an interesting character, he could have some role to play during Inquisition (probably a small one I bet).

[Daissran]

duckley wrote...

Putting Ostagar aside - Loghain tried to assasinate the Wardens, poison Eamon, persuade Uldred to revolt, supported slave traders and ignored Howe's murdering rampage. His actions were criminal and immoral.

For his fans out there - I hope based on your imports, you get to see him. As for me, no thanks!

[HiroVoid]

So I guess the people who were against Uldred revolting are pro-templar?

[Aaleel]

duckley wrote...

Putting Ostagar aside - Loghain tried to assasinate the Wardens, poison Eamon, persuade Uldred to revolt, supported slave traders and ignored Howe's murdering rampage. His actions were criminal and immoral.

For his fans out there - I hope based on your imports, you get to see him. As for me, no thanks!

Basically sums it up for me.  Even if he thought he was justified in what he did at Ostagar, he should have said as much not scapegoated the wardens for it and tried to kill them. 

He won't make any cameos in my game because that coward is dead in all my saves.

Modifié par Aaleel, 15 septembre 2013 - 11:42 .

[Captain Obvious]

duckley wrote...

Putting Ostagar aside - Loghain tried to assasinate the Wardens, poison Eamon, persuade Uldred to revolt, supported slave traders and ignored Howe's murdering rampage. His actions were criminal and immoral.

For his fans out there - I hope based on your imports, you get to see him. As for me, no thanks!

Actually, it was Howe that tried to have the Wardens assassinated. It's also not specified who Jowan was directly taking orders from. Loghain only wanted Uldred to persuade the Circle to join his side. He couldn't have foreseen Uldred going crazy like he did. On topic of the slave traders, that was a bad decision on Loghain's part. While he certainly had his reasons for doing so, it didn't justify them. No arguing there. As for Howe's murdering rampage, Howe does a lot of things behind peoples' backs and it's unclear how much Loghain knew what was going on. 

[Herr Uhl]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Actually, it was Howe that tried to have the Wardens assassinated.

And Loghain was completely in the dark about this, despite talking to Zevran himself. And posting a bounty on the wardens.

It's also not specified who Jowan was directly taking orders from.

It was Loghain.

Loghain only wanted Uldred to persuade the Circle to join his side. He couldn't have foreseen Uldred going crazy like he did.

I'm willing to concede this.

As for Howe's murdering rampage, Howe does a lot of things behind peoples' backs and it's unclear how much Loghain knew what was going on. 

That is incompetence.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 15 septembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Captain Obvious]

And Loghain was completely in the dark about this, despite talking to Zevran himself. And posting a bounty on the wardens.

Again, all Howe.

It was Loghain.

It's unsure whether or not he took his orders directly from Loghain.

That is incompetence.

It's an example of how deceptive and manipulative Howe is.

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:30 .

[Xilizhra]

Which error? He abandoned Ostagar and needed more men? He should've sacrificed the whole army to save one man? Or that he came across as abrupt at the Landsmeet, and the bannorn tried to fill in the power vacuum, and a civil war broke out? Should he have gone and faced the darkspawn himself, and allow the bannorn to try and attack him from behind so they could seize power?

No. He should have let Anora handle everything political and concentrate on fighting the darkspawn. And not lied about the Grey Wardens.

Again, all Howe.

Loghain could have overruled him had he wanted to.

It's an example of how deceptive and manipulative Howe is.

Loghain knew about his killing the Couslands, and I don't see why he wouldn't have known about the Alienage purge.

[Master Warder Z_]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which error? He abandoned Ostagar and needed more men? He should've sacrificed the whole army to save one man? Or that he came across as abrupt at the Landsmeet, and the bannorn tried to fill in the power vacuum, and a civil war broke out? Should he have gone and faced the darkspawn himself, and allow the bannorn to try and attack him from behind so they could seize power?

No. He should have let Anora handle everything political and concentrate on fighting the darkspawn. And not lied about the Grey Wardens.

Again, all Howe.

Loghain could have overruled him had he wanted to.

It's an example of how deceptive and manipulative Howe is.

Loghain knew about his killing the Couslands, and I don't see why he wouldn't have known about the Alienage purge.

You do realize the purge went on after the elves staged a revolt and possibly killed the Arl's son correct?

A Purge may have been...Overlooked for the sake of Political Expediency by Loghain merely because that could be what the Banns wanted.

Or rather that was what Howe told him the Banns wanted.

[Xilizhra]

You do realize the purge went on after the elves staged a revolt and possibly killed the Arl's son correct?

A well-deserved one. Loghain's lack of investigation speaks volumes.

[Sviken]

duckley wrote...

Putting Ostagar aside - Loghain tried to assasinate the Wardens, poison Eamon, persuade Uldred to revolt, supported slave traders and ignored Howe's murdering rampage. His actions were criminal and immoral.

For his fans out there - I hope based on your imports, you get to see him. As for me, no thanks!

Loghain was always suspicious on the Wardens based on the events that happened in the Calling.

I'll agree on Eamon, but nevertheless Eamon was a threat to him and the stability he needed at that moment.

You're looking at slavery from 21st century morals. Thedas is based on medieval Europe which practiced slavery and didn't think it was wrong. Elfs in Thedas, although having freedom in most countries in Thedas, they are always at the bottom of society and you can say they are practically slaves. What he did was wrong, but there was no other way to fill the coffers.

Also, as far as I remember he didn't know about Howe's "experiments". And even if he did knew, you can't honestly expect him to turn against the only ally he has (the strongest arl) until stability is brought back to Ferelden.

[duckley]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Actually, it was Howe that tried to have the Wardens assassinated.

And Loghain was completely in the dark about this, despite talking to Zevran himself. And posting a bounty on the wardens.And Zev told the Warden that Loghain had hired him if I recall correctly

It's also not specified who Jowan was directly taking orders from.

It was Loghain. Yup, and I am pretty sure Jowan said as much.

Loghain only wanted Uldred to persuade the Circle to join his side. He couldn't have foreseen Uldred going crazy like he did.

I'm willing to concede this.I am not so generous. How else did Loghain think Uldred was going to "persuade" the circle? With charm? Loghain gave a loaded gun to Uldred and surprize!

As for Howe's murdering rampage, Howe does a lot of things behind peoples' backs and it's unclear how much Loghain knew what was going on. 

That is incompetence.  I agree with you here too. He found out eventually - regardless of when he knew. he did not bring Howe to justice. That is criminal and immoral IMO and I agree - what kind of man who wants to lead a country doesn't know what his top advosors are or have done! Not smart!

I agree with your responses and have added mine bolded and underlined for reference.

[Master Warder Z_]

Xilizhra wrote...

You do realize the purge went on after the elves staged a revolt and possibly killed the Arl's son correct?

A well-deserved one. Loghain's lack of investigation speaks volumes.

If you say so.

Murdering the son of the Cities Arl however is no way to win Support for such a position and in fact it calls for the very action you condemn him for.

Every Fiefdom centuries ago that assaulted its Lord would be razed and that is fact.

The Alienage however wasn't burnt to the ground and not every one was killed, it should speak volumes.

[Herr Uhl]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

And Loghain was completely in the dark about this, despite talking to Zevran himself. And posting a bounty on the wardens.

Again, all Howe.

How is something that Loghain personally sanctions only the fault of Howe?