375 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Former_Fiend wrote...

duckley wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

duckley wrote...


Fair enough but in a round about way discussing his moral actions and why I would not spare him is to me implying that I do not see he will or should have any influence on the Inquistion. 

If he doesn't have influence I don't think it will have anything to do with his moral character. I think it will be because Bioware's having to prioritize content and Loghain fans are something of a minority. 

But it's that "should" thing that bothers me. "I don't like the character so people who spared him shouldn't get to enjoy his presence in future games." I don't know if that's your intention, but that's really how it comes off. 

As I said in a previous post, as much as I detest the man, those who spared him and import him into DA:I should definately get to see him in whatever capacity the producers chose. I want to see Alistair and Cullen - to characters that are equally contraversial, and hope to get the chance to as well.
Having said that, to be honest, I would be less happy however, if Loghain been spared was canon for reasons too many to get into now - but thats just me...:innocent:

"Canon" is and always will be a nebulous situation in Dragon Age, but I don't think you're going to have to worry about Loghain being alive for default games without imports or use of the Keep.

Indeed i don't care for the storyline Bioware is providing mainly due to the fact its decidely against i normally play my own storylines.

No Offense to the Dalish but elf classes in any capcity beyond mage are garbage. And placing Alistair on the throne alone is basically handing Eamon and the Bannorn the Throne they are going to pick him apart until the throne is a gilded chair.

And no offense to  Pro Mage Players but my Hawke? i generally side with the Templars.

Siding with Orsino even before i realized the entire ending wouldn't change much regardless seemed like a pointless and futile move. You overpower the Kirkwall circle chapter? The Chantry calls in two more and you are then overrun and the city turns into an actual warzone.

Bad for Kirkwall and as the champion you sort of have to preven that

So Yeah i became the rallying cry for mage oppression boohoo.

My intent was to nip this situation in the bud after what anders did but well...we all know that didn't happen.

[duckley]

dragonflight288 wrote...


Thanks.


EDIT: Now, I'm not going to try and convince people to like Loghain, because he makes a poor case for himself leading up to the Landsmeet, but I am going to ask one question, and those who oppose him, please answer honestly.

From a completely honest perspective, if you were the general at Ostagar, and if you saw the battlefield and deemed it unwinnable, and I mean the battle could not be won no matter what you did, and it was a well-established fact, and it was also just as established that if you charged in then nearly your whole army would be destroyed with only a handful of survivors, but the king is on the field.

What would you do? Would you save as much of the army as possible, or would you lead the charge into a battle you know you can't win, to save only one man out there?

Please ignore Loghain and his actions following the retreat. Please ignore politics between Ferelden and Orlais, and don't take into account the nobility. Simply put, what would you do in that given situation, if you were the one in charge of the battle?

Great Question. Here is my answer.

On the assumption that I as General:

• did all my intel and reconaissance work thoroughly
• that I intended to  fully  support my King as my sworn duty
• that I had done all I could to convince Cailen, Duncan and any other men and women in power of the danger of the risks to Cailen and my tactical alternatives
• that I had a plan of retreat that the entire army was aware of

Yes I may well have ordered a tactical retreat. If I had failed at any or all of the above, then I would like to think I would take responsibility for my failure. (OK - being a coward, I probably would have run away to become Qunari!)

[Master Warder Z_]

[quote]duckley wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...


Thanks.


EDIT: Now, I'm not going to try and convince people to like Loghain, because he makes a poor case for himself leading up to the Landsmeet, but I am going to ask one question, and those who oppose him, please answer honestly.

From a completely honest perspective, if you were the general at Ostagar, and if you saw the battlefield and deemed it unwinnable, and I mean the battle could not be won no matter what you did, and it was a well-established fact, and it was also just as established that if you charged in then nearly your whole army would be destroyed with only a handful of survivors, but the king is on the field.

What would you do? Would you save as much of the army as possible, or would you lead the charge into a battle you know you can't win, to save only one man out there?

Please ignore Loghain and his actions following the retreat. Please ignore politics between Ferelden and Orlais, and don't take into account the nobility. Simply put, what would you do in that given situation, if you were the one in charge of the battle?

[/quote]

Great Question. Here is my answer.



On the assumption that I as General:

• did all my intel and reconaissance work thoroughly
• that I intended to  fully  support my King as my sworn duty
• that I had done all I could to convince Cailen, Duncan and any other men and women in power of the danger of the risks to Cailen and my tactical alternativesthat I had a plan of retreat that the entire army was aware of

Yes I may well have ordered a tactical retreat. If I had failed at any or all of the above, then I would like to think I would take responsibility for my failure. (OK - being a coward, I probably would have run away to become Qunari!)

[/quote

He had the best view of the tactical situation as he could considering that most recon and scouting parties going to the wilds returned with few survivors and the men tainted or not at all. So i wouldn't blame him for having an incomplete picture when you have all his men dying before they can report.

He swore an Oath to Defend Fereldan long before that whelp was even born; Placing Nation over Liege is difficult but he would hardly be alone in history of doing that.
 
They were aguring for days before the Battle and apparently Loghain had little success talking Calian down from his suicide.

Considering the majority of the Army was surrounded on three sides by the Horde what retreat could they follow anyway? They were fighting on a field outside a canyon surrounded by wilderness.

So i think Loghain did the best he could with the situation presented to him at Ostogar.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
From a completely honest perspective, if you were the general at Ostagar, and if you saw the battlefield and deemed it unwinnable, and I mean the battle could not be won no matter what you did, and it was a well-established fact, and it was also just as established that if you charged in then nearly your whole army would be destroyed with only a handful of survivors, but the king is on the field.

What would you do? Would you save as much of the army as possible, or would you lead the charge into a battle you know you can't win, to save only one man out there?

Are we stuck with his original battle plan? Becuase I don't think Loghain made the wrong decision when battle was actually joined under his plan. I just think his plan was a bad one. 

I don't think victory would have been possible at Ostagar. The only question is how to design the battle to create a darkspawn kill zone as best you can while controlling for the unknown darkspawn numbers. 

[In Exile]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Despite the latest confirmation of his location being over in Orlais?

I think he would be Warden Commander over there by now considering he was sent there to head up the Recuirtment there by the First Warden's Authority.

Loghain betrayed Cailan because he thought it was best for Ferelden. Why wouldn't he betray the Wardens if he thought the same?

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
From a completely honest perspective, if you were the general at Ostagar, and if you saw the battlefield and deemed it unwinnable, and I mean the battle could not be won no matter what you did, and it was a well-established fact, and it was also just as established that if you charged in then nearly your whole army would be destroyed with only a handful of survivors, but the king is on the field.

What would you do? Would you save as much of the army as possible, or would you lead the charge into a battle you know you can't win, to save only one man out there?

Are we stuck with his original battle plan? Becuase I don't think Loghain made the wrong decision when battle was actually joined under his plan. I just think his plan was a bad one. 

I don't think victory would have been possible at Ostagar. The only question is how to design the battle to create a darkspawn kill zone as best you can while controlling for the unknown darkspawn numbers. 

Say you used a different plan, but the battle is unwinnable, and it's established, and this is strictly hypothetical, nothing more.

[dragonflight288]

Great Question. Here is my answer.

On the assumption that I as General:

did all my intel and reconaissance work thoroughly

that I intended to fully support my King as my sworn duty

that I had done all I could to convince Cailen, Duncan and any other men and women in power of the danger of the risks to Cailen and my tactical alternatives

that I had a plan of retreat that the entire army was aware of

Yes I may well have ordered a tactical retreat. If I had failed at any or all of the above, then I would like to think I would take responsibility for my failure. (OK - being a coward, I probably would have run away to become Qunari!)

Fair enough. I wouldn't say it's cowardice. To quote a story I once read. "Cowards run away, but Generals retreat."

Simple semantics, but this is simply a hypothetical situation anyway.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 septembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[addiction21]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Say you used a different plan, but the battle is unwinnable, and it's established, and this is strictly hypothetical, nothing more.

Its a lot of hypotheticals.

If Loghains troops were in position to make a effective charge on foot when they marched away then they were already lost to the darkspawn horde.

Everything about the battle is done for a narrative purpose.

[dragonflight288]

addiction21 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Say you used a different plan, but the battle is unwinnable, and it's established, and this is strictly hypothetical, nothing more.

Its a lot of hypotheticals.

If Loghains troops were in position to make a effective charge on foot when they marched away then they were already lost to the darkspawn horde.

Everything about the battle is done for a narrative purpose.

I know.

A lot of the Loghain hate, I feel, comes from people perceiving him as betraying the king, and then going with Alistair's belief that he's after the throne, and focus less on where Loghain was coming from. It doesn't excuse what he did after the battle by any means, (like selling elves into slavery) but when I asked people in real life who wanted to hate Loghain for leaving Ostagar, what decision they would make when I point out the tower was lit late and the darkspawn horde was still pouring out of the wilds when Loghain retreated, mor often than not, in real life, they said they'd retreat and save as much of the army as possible, and thus do the very same thing they want to hate Loghain for doing.

It's not my place to say what's right or what's wrong, as most of my playthrough's, I kill him. But my latest playthrough, where I spared him, gave me a perspective I previously lacked, and I can now sympathize with Loghain a lot more, and I would like to see him make an appearance in Inquisition in the playthroughs where he lives.

Especially since I suspect, without proof mind you, that our Inquisitor will be put into a similar position Loghain was in after Ostagar. Survives this great tragedy and organizes or begins leading the Inquisition....and it could be seen as fortuitous.

[Sviken]

I guess I am not clear on what Loghains's vision of stopping the blight was. If I recall correctly, he did not even think this was a true blight. If the other nobles didnt share Loghains vision, perhaps it was because it was a flawed vision? There is no evidence that I can see to suggest that had Loghain - a beloved general and hero to that point - would not have gotten support for his appraoch. Indeed - even in the face of his crimes, some nobles sided with him. Had he tried, I may not be so harsh in my judgement of him - although would still vehemently oppose his methods.

Quite frankly, I do beleive that Loghain was trying to usurp the throne. He thought (perhaps rightly so) - that Cailen was foolish

Maybe, maybe not. Foolish or not - Cailan was king and it was Loghain's duty to stand side by side which him even, if the whole army got slaughtered as a result. If it wasn't for the Warden, no one would have known what happened at Ostagar and Loghain's plan of uniting the bannorn which force would have succeeded.

Yes, I agree the plight of the Elves is dispicable and Cailen indicated, as did Anora and Alistair - that they indended to try to ameloriate it. I am not convinced however, that this relality justifies Loghain conspiring with slavers.

Better to make profit from the elves who are practically slaves anyway. Besides, the kingdom needed the money and without the money Loghain wouldn't have enough strength to stop the darkspawn advance.

I do believe the Cousalnds and Eamon were more powerful than Howe. And yes, Duncan did not help matters!

Not after Howe acquired the Cousland lands and the arl of Denerim.

Why not - Howe executed Cousland and Loghain took out Eamon.

Howe used the chaos of the Blight as an advantage. He delayed his forces while the Couslands send the bulk of their army at Ostagar and so he easily took Highever.

Modifié par Mortis5, 16 septembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[dragonflight288]

Maybe, maybe not. Foolish or not - Cailan was king and it was Loghain's duty to stand side by side which him even, if the whole army got slaughtered as a result. If it wasn't for the Warden, no one would have known what happened at Ostagar and Loghain's plan of uniting the bannorn which force would have succeeded.

But he wouldn't have enough of an army to fight the Blight, since it really was one.

[dragonflight288]

It's been nearly a month, so I'm going to try and get this back on track.

Should Loghain survive previous playthroughs, or if people simply use the Keep to spare him and do the dark ritual simply for the sake of seeing what changes, how do you guys think Loghain will affect Inquisition? Would he make a cameo? Would he be an npc who helps the Inquisitor now and then? Do we see him on his way to his Calling?

And, this thought just barely occurred to me, what do you think his opinion is of the Orlesian civil war?

[HiroVoid]

I guess he'd like the Orlesian civil war. It's his favorite kind of war. The one where basically only Orlesians die.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

He'd effect it about as much as any other corpse would.

[LOLandStuff]

By pushing up daisies around the keep.

[Hellion Rex]

The only way he could affect DAI is if I am given the chance to raise his corpse, just so I can kill him again.

[dragonflight288]

So the three posters above me aren't at all interested in how things may or may not change with him there?

[Captain Obvious]

You know, it's funny. None of the moderators have commented on this topic yet.

[dragonflight288]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

You know, it's funny. None of the moderators have commented on this topic yet.

I don't know if that's a good thing (as it means no one has gotten out of line and we've stayed mostly on topic) or a bad thing (that this topic isn't of much interest to them.)

[Endurium]

A fringe organization will obtain Loghain's body and resurrect/rebuild him, then he will lead Ferelden into war against the Orlesians, thus muddying the waters for the Inquisition.  (Hey, it worked in ME2)

[EmperorSahlertz]

Loghain seemed to grasp the concept of neutrality of the Grey Wardens well enough. I don't think he will care much for the civil war. A part of him might find it amusing, but he certainly wont take any sides in the conflict.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So the three posters above me aren't at all interested in how things may or may not change with him there?

Not really. I am not personally a fan of Loghain, and I let Alistair have the final say as to his fate. I wouldn't mind having Loghain appear for players who want that, as long as there might be a similar cameo for players who do not desire his presence. Maybe having Alistair himself or Anora appear.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Loghain seemed to grasp the concept of neutrality of the Grey Wardens well enough. I don't think he will care much for the civil war. A part of him might find it amusing, but he certainly wont take any sides in the conflict.

I can see that happening as well. It would still be amusing to hear what he has to say as an aside and not offically, however.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

So the three posters above me aren't at all interested in how things may or may not change with him there?

Not really. I am not personally a fan of Loghain, and I let Alistair have the final say as to his fate. I wouldn't mind having Loghain appear for players who want that, as long as there might be a similar cameo for players who do not desire his presence. Maybe having Alistair himself or Anora appear.

Fair enough. Personally, I would love to have some dialogue between Nathanial, Alistair and Loghain overrall.

[KC_Prototype]

You can recruit Loghain and still keep Alistair? WHAT?!