375 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Obvious]

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

lol no

[Martyr1777]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

He -was- a good commander. What he did at Ostagar was flat out treasonous, being a good commander would have been forcing Cailan to not be stupid, even if that ment popping the brat like he would Maric.

To agree to a plan knowing you are going to ignore it and just walk away is anything but good command.

[ziloe]

Nefla wrote...

At the end of awakening, if Loghain is alive it says something like "his aged body couldn't withstand the taint for long and he went on his calling having earned the respect of his fellow wardens." If he's in DA:I it will either be a retcon or a Larius type deal.

I didn't get this at the end of Awakening.

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Ah, the great maturity of Plantiff, what a great sight.

[Plaintiff]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

Yes, that's why the entire country fell apart under his command. They just couldn't handle his awesome.

[Mr.House]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

He -was- a good commander. What he did at Ostagar was flat out treasonous, being a good commander would have been forcing Cailan to not be stupid, even if that ment popping the brat like he would Maric.

To agree to a plan knowing you are going to ignore it and just walk away is anything but good command.

No one knew how big the horde wasi t was much bigger then everyone tohugh, the plan which would have worked was now useless. Had Cailan listended, he would have been with Loghain and left with Loghain, only sacerficing some soldeirs and grey wardens to protect the bulk of the army. What was Loghain going to do, sacerfice the wholearmy for a fool of a king hwo just showed he was a complete and utter idiot by being on the front lines? The battle of Ostagar was over soon as it started because the horde was simply too big.

Also you act like loghain does not regret whay he id. He does, he hates what he did, he remebers every name of the soldiers that where with Cailan, it was no  an easy choice he made and it's what drives him to redeem him worse cas,e accepts his death at the Landsmeet because he knows he screwed up and sees the Warden will do the right thing. OF course people will think Loghain is a paraoid monster and act like children like Plantiff.

[Clockwork_Wings]

ziloe wrote...

Nefla wrote...

At the end of awakening, if Loghain is alive it says something like "his aged body couldn't withstand the taint for long and he went on his calling having earned the respect of his fellow wardens." If he's in DA:I it will either be a retcon or a Larius type deal.

I didn't get this at the end of Awakening.

Me neither.  Although it does open up an oppertunity to meet him.  We're going into the Deep Roads eventually.  This is a Dragon Age game after all.

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

Yes, that's why the entire country fell apart under his command. They just couldn't handle his awesome.

You mean it fell apart because of idiot banns like Teagan and power hungry Arls like Eamon who wanted the throne and started a civil war against the  weakend the army Loghain saved at Ostagar because loghain was regent until things where settled then Anora would be giveback full power, which he would have done. Peopel like Teagan did FAR more damage, but like always. You and your ilk refuse to remeber that and just blame Loghain for everything.

Modifié par Mr.House, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:07 .

[Eragon-]

Mr.House wrote...


Also you act like loghain does not regret whay he id. He does, he hates what he did, he remebers every name of the soldiers that where with Cailan, it was no  an easy choice he made and it's what drives him to redeem him worse cas,e accepts his death at the Landsmeet because he knows he screwed up and sees the Warden will do the right thing. OF course people will think Loghain is a paraoid monster and act like children like Plantiff.

Throwing personal insults is not gonna help.

As I see it, he is far too stuck in the past. He can't see past his hatred for Orlesians. I think the writers went a bit too far to portray him in a bad light. Selling people into slavery should never be part of any kind of war effort.

[Martyr1777]

Mr.House wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

He -was- a good commander. What he did at Ostagar was flat out treasonous, being a good commander would have been forcing Cailan to not be stupid, even if that ment popping the brat like he would Maric.

To agree to a plan knowing you are going to ignore it and just walk away is anything but good command.

No one knew how big the horde wasi t was much bigger then everyone tohugh, the plan which would have worked was now useless. Had Cailan listended, he would have been with Loghain and left with Loghain, only sacerficing some soldeirs and grey wardens to protect the bulk of the army. What was Loghain going to do, sacerfice the wholearmy for a fool of a king hwo just showed he was a complete and utter idiot by being on the front lines? The battle of Ostagar was over soon as it started because the horde was simply too big.

Also you act like loghain does not regret whay he id. He does, he hates what he did, he remebers every name of the soldiers that where with Cailan, it was no  an easy choice he made and it's what drives him to redeem him worse cas,e accepts his death at the Landsmeet because he knows he screwed up and sees the Warden will do the right thing. OF course people will think Loghain is a paraoid monster and act like children like Plantiff.

Duncan tried to warn them be was shrugged off by Cailan, so he should have sided with Duncan but didnt because Duncan wanted the Orlisians to join before fighting.

Honestly, after reading Stolen Throne I though Loghain was a little out of character when he gave into Cailin so easily. Hell he protested more long before he was the Kings right hand. And if in character I'm pretty sure if he really barked Cailan would have responded like like a puppy with its tail between its legs.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...
You mean it fell apart because of idiot banns like Teagan and power hungry Arls like Eamon who wanted the throne and started a civil war against the  weakend the army Loghain saved at Ostagar

Loghain didn't "save" anything except his own men and his own skin. He didn't sound a retreat, he skulked off with his tail between his legs and left countless men to die, waiting for aid that would never come.

Why he did that doesn't matter. He could've and should've saved more people than he did.

because loghain was regent until things where settled then Anora would be giveback full power, which he would have done.

He has no business declaring himself regent, because the country has a (supposedly) capable ruler, and given how the situation looks, he's an idiot for doing so. Loghain is an arrogant moron with a complete lack of self-awareness. Things would never be "settled" under him. The Darkspawn would ravage the country while he's busy preparing for a non-existent invasion from Orlais, and, oh yes, placing bounties on the heads of the only people who can put an end to the Blight.

Peopel like Teagan did FAR more damage, but like always. You and your ilk refuse to remeber that and just blame Loghain for everything.

I must've missed the part where we learn that Teagan is invading other arlings to steal their food, and selling his subjects into slavery.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Mr.House]

But he did, we hear many times that Calain and Loghain have been arguing and arguing for days, and it kept getting worse. In the end, Loghain still wanted Cailan off the front lines because Loghain had the back up plan already, in case he had to pull it.Once Cailan refused to listen for the last time, Loghain gave up on him, and rightfully so. Cailan proved many times he was a fool trying to live up to his daddy when he could not and had his wife doing most of the ruling.

Modifié par Mr.House, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[dragonflight288]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

He -was- a good commander. What he did at Ostagar was flat out treasonous, being a good commander would have been forcing Cailan to not be stupid, even if that ment popping the brat like he would Maric.

To agree to a plan knowing you are going to ignore it and just walk away is anything but good command.

No one knew how big the horde wasi t was much bigger then everyone tohugh, the plan which would have worked was now useless. Had Cailan listended, he would have been with Loghain and left with Loghain, only sacerficing some soldeirs and grey wardens to protect the bulk of the army. What was Loghain going to do, sacerfice the wholearmy for a fool of a king hwo just showed he was a complete and utter idiot by being on the front lines? The battle of Ostagar was over soon as it started because the horde was simply too big.

Also you act like loghain does not regret whay he id. He does, he hates what he did, he remebers every name of the soldiers that where with Cailan, it was no  an easy choice he made and it's what drives him to redeem him worse cas,e accepts his death at the Landsmeet because he knows he screwed up and sees the Warden will do the right thing. OF course people will think Loghain is a paraoid monster and act like children like Plantiff.

Duncan tried to warn them be was shrugged off by Cailan, so he should have sided with Duncan but didnt because Duncan wanted the Orlisians to join before fighting.

Honestly, after reading Stolen Throne I though Loghain was a little out of character when he gave into Cailin so easily. Hell he protested more long before he was the Kings right hand. And if in character I'm pretty sure if he really barked Cailan would have responded like like a puppy with its tail between its legs.

According to the soldiers, Loghain and Cailan had been arguing for days. I'm guessing that at this point Loghain was getting tired of repeating himself to the king who refused to listen. I'm on my next playthrough of Origins at the moment, and I'm looking over the battle of Ostagar more closely. I stood on the bridge and looked down into the valley. There's a lot of darkspawn still in the forest. In the scene where Loghain retreats, the horde is still coming out of the woods.

The plan was to get the darkspawn to get fully committed, and then flank them. But there were several problems. One, Cailan had them charge so they were surrounded on three sides, and their own soldiers were pushing them forward from the back to continue the charge, so they left a defensible location. Two, the tower of Ishal had fallen, so the Warden and Alistair had to fight their way up the tower, and missed the signal completely. Three, when the beacon was lit, after we see Loghain retreat, we are given a very brief overhead view of the battle. However, that brief view shows the darkspawn horde is still coming out of the woods, and so they weren't committed. Had Loghain attacked, there was no real feasible way he'd get to Cailan before he died. Too many darkspawn.

One of Loghain's and Wynne's dialogues cover this very fact, when Wynne is accusing him of regicide for leaving, and he asks her why she didn't rush in and save the king. She responds by saying there was nothing she could've done, she had no army. Loghain said he had no magic or mages (seeing as the Chantry only allowed 7 mages to Ostagar) and had no one available to take on a large group of darkspawn, so he'd have to fight his way through. He had just as much chance of getting to Cailan as Wynne did, and then he pretty much calls her a hypocrite for getting on his case when she did the same thing as he.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Eragon- wrote...

Selling people into slavery should never be part of any kind of war effort.

I don't think I could say it any better, so I'll let the man himself speak:

"War is cruel. Every soul who fought alongside Maric knows this. And in it, there are no such things as innocents, only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear."

The idea that such a thing as "war crimes" or that there are heroes and villains in war is romantic and naive. You do what it takes to win, as your very survival depends upon it.

Modifié par OLDIRTYBARON, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:28 .

[In Exile]

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

Do you mean the part of Ostagar where his plan is to get flanked by darkspawn in a killzone?

[Mr.House]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If he's alive, Loghain's incompetence single-handedly drove the Grey Wardens straight into the ground, just like he did with Ferelden. Plus, he breaks his hip constantly.

If he's dead, your Inquisitor will have the opportunity to visit his unmarked grave and pee on it.

Loghain's a good military commander, as Ostagar proves. He'll make a good fit in the Warden ranks.

He -was- a good commander. What he did at Ostagar was flat out treasonous, being a good commander would have been forcing Cailan to not be stupid, even if that ment popping the brat like he would Maric.

To agree to a plan knowing you are going to ignore it and just walk away is anything but good command.

No one knew how big the horde wasi t was much bigger then everyone tohugh, the plan which would have worked was now useless. Had Cailan listended, he would have been with Loghain and left with Loghain, only sacerficing some soldeirs and grey wardens to protect the bulk of the army. What was Loghain going to do, sacerfice the wholearmy for a fool of a king hwo just showed he was a complete and utter idiot by being on the front lines? The battle of Ostagar was over soon as it started because the horde was simply too big.

Also you act like loghain does not regret whay he id. He does, he hates what he did, he remebers every name of the soldiers that where with Cailan, it was no  an easy choice he made and it's what drives him to redeem him worse cas,e accepts his death at the Landsmeet because he knows he screwed up and sees the Warden will do the right thing. OF course people will think Loghain is a paraoid monster and act like children like Plantiff.

Duncan tried to warn them be was shrugged off by Cailan, so he should have sided with Duncan but didnt because Duncan wanted the Orlisians to join before fighting.

Honestly, after reading Stolen Throne I though Loghain was a little out of character when he gave into Cailin so easily. Hell he protested more long before he was the Kings right hand. And if in character I'm pretty sure if he really barked Cailan would have responded like like a puppy with its tail between its legs.

According to the soldiers, Loghain and Cailan had been arguing for days. I'm guessing that at this point Loghain was getting tired of repeating himself to the king who refused to listen. I'm on my next playthrough of Origins at the moment, and I'm looking over the battle of Ostagar more closely. I stood on the bridge and looked down into the valley. There's a lot of darkspawn still in the forest. In the scene where Loghain retreats, the horde is still coming out of the woods.

The plan was to get the darkspawn to get fully committed, and then flank them. But there were several problems. One, Cailan had them charge so they were surrounded on three sides, and their own soldiers were pushing them forward from the back to continue the charge, so they left a defensible location. Two, the tower of Ishal had fallen, so the Warden and Alistair had to fight their way up the tower, and missed the signal completely. Three, when the beacon was lit, after we see Loghain retreat, we are given a very brief overhead view of the battle. However, that brief view shows the darkspawn horde is still coming out of the woods, and so they weren't committed. Had Loghain attacked, there was no real feasible way he'd get to Cailan before he died. Too many darkspawn.

One of Loghain's and Wynne's dialogues cover this very fact, when Wynne is accusing him of regicide for leaving, and he asks her why she didn't rush in and save the king. She responds by saying there was nothing she could've done, she had no army. Loghain said he had no magic or mages (seeing as the Chantry only allowed 7 mages to Ostagar) and had no one available to take on a large group of darkspawn, so he'd have to fight his way through. He had just as much chance of getting to Cailan as Wynne did, and then he pretty much calls her a hypocrite for getting on his case when she did the same thing as he.

+1

[In Exile]

Cap. Obvious wrote...
If you're talking about what happened after Ostagar, then to be fair, Loghain had Howe and Howe is quite a thrifty person. He was probably keeping things from Loghain. It's in his nature to keep things from people.

That just makes Loghain incompetent at best and an idiot at worst. Kind of like how not immediately executing Howe and blaming Ostagar on his betrayal also makes him an idiot. 

[Master Warder Z_]

 I am hoping for a Cameo at the very least.

The man was by far one of the best companions in Orgins.

[Martyr1777]

Mr.House wrote...

But he did, we hear many times that Calain and Loghain have been arguing and arguing for days, and it kept getting worse. In the end, Loghain still wanted Cailan off the front lines because Loghain had the back up plan already, in case he had to pull it.Once Cailan refused to listen for the last time, Loghain gave up on him, and rightfully so. Cailan proved many times he was a fool trying to live up to his daddy when he could not and had his wife doing most of the ruling.

Thats my point about being out of character though. In the book Loghain didn't just argue, he forced the issue. I forget how many times he physically forced Maric, let alone hit him. I dont beleive Cailan would have reacted any different then his father either.

Rebellion Logain was AWESOME, blight Loghain was a traitorous whiny ****. In my eyes anyway.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The plan was to get the darkspawn to get fully committed, and then flank them. But there were several problems. One, Cailan had them charge so they were surrounded on three sides, and their own soldiers were pushing them forward from the back to continue the charge, so they left a defensible location. Two, the tower of Ishal had fallen, so the Warden and Alistair had to fight their way up the tower, and missed the signal completely. Three, when the beacon was lit, after we see Loghain retreat, we are given a very brief overhead view of the battle. However, that brief view shows the darkspawn horde is still coming out of the woods, and so they weren't committed. Had Loghain attacked, there was no real feasible way he'd get to Cailan before he died. Too many darkspawn.

But this just demonstrates how incompetent Loghain was. At minimum, his scouts failed so utterly and completely that it made it impossible to plan for the war. Even if Cailan had stayed inside alcove at Ostagar, there was nothing for Loghain to flank because he'd be running into darkspawn on each side. 

Not to mention that the whole idea of flanking appears to be of pretty limited value against darkspawn because there's no reason to believe they have morale or would break. It forces them to fight on two fronts, so in principle it might give you a numerical advantage (if you could actually scout their numbers for real) but that's it. 

That's not even touching the issue with the Tower of Ishal to begin with as the lynchpin of the plan. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:33 .

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
If you're talking about what happened after Ostagar, then to be fair, Loghain had Howe and Howe is quite a thrifty person. He was probably keeping things from Loghain. It's in his nature to keep things from people.

That just makes Loghain incompetent at best and an idiot at worst. Kind of like how not immediately executing Howe and blaming Ostagar on his betrayal also makes him an idiot. 

"So Howe, what makes you think you'd be right for the position as my personal aide and consultant?"

"Well I pretended to be friends with Teryn Cousland since youth, until I used the Darkspawn incursion as an excuse to slaughter him, his family, and a good portion of his men (depriving the troops at Ostagar of vital reinforcements in the process), in the slim hope that nobody would notice and I'd just be able to take over his land."

"You're hired!"

[Mr.House]

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
If you're talking about what happened after Ostagar, then to be fair, Loghain had Howe and Howe is quite a thrifty person. He was probably keeping things from Loghain. It's in his nature to keep things from people.

That just makes Loghain incompetent at best and an idiot at worst. Kind of like how not immediately executing Howe and blaming Ostagar on his betrayal also makes him an idiot. 

Howe had evidence, you can argue it's fake or not, he had it, and we know from DAO:A Loghain had nothing to do with the Couslands, that was all Howe. If you wnat to believe the evidence was fake, that's your opinion.

[Eragon-]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Eragon- wrote...

Selling people into slavery should never be part of any kind of war effort.

I don't think I could say it any better, so I'll let the man himself speak:

"War is cruel. Every soul who fought alongside Maric knows this. And in it, there are no such things as innocents, only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear."

The idea that such a thing as "war crimes" or that there are heroes and villains in war is romantic and naive. You do what it takes to win, as your very survival depends upon it.

Never said he was a villain or a hero. My pragmatism has a limit. I should have added "IMO" in that post. 

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
If you're talking about what happened after Ostagar, then to be fair, Loghain had Howe and Howe is quite a thrifty person. He was probably keeping things from Loghain. It's in his nature to keep things from people.

That just makes Loghain incompetent at best and an idiot at worst. Kind of like how not immediately executing Howe and blaming Ostagar on his betrayal also makes him an idiot. 

"So Howe, what makes you think you'd be right for the position as my personal aide and consultant?"

"Well I pretended to be friends with Teryn Cousland since youth, until I used the Darkspawn incursion as an excuse to slaughter him, his family, and a good portion of his men (depriving the troops at Ostagar of vital reinforcements in the process), in the slim hope that nobody would notice and I'd just be able to take over his land."

"You're hired!"

Please play the games.