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[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
"So Howe, what makes you think you'd be right for the position as my personal aide and consultant?"

"Well I pretended to be friends with Teryn Cousland since youth, until I used the Darkspawn incursion as an excuse to slaughter him, his family, and a good portion of his men (depriving the troops at Ostagar of vital reinforcements in the process), in the slim hope that nobody would notice and I'd just be able to take over his land."

"You're hired!"

And the worst thing about it is that Howe's blatant breach of the feudal order means Cailan is basically forced to try and immediately execute him or risk upending the entire feudal pyramid. 

As far as Howe knew (assuming Loghain didn't conspire with him) Loghain/Cailan would have won at Ostagar. And then either he fights a civil war or has to submit to justice and an executioner's ax. 

[In Exile]

Mr.House wrote...
Howe had evidence, you can argue it's fake or not, he had it, and we know from DAO:A Loghain had nothing to do with the Couslands, that was all Howe. If you wnat to believe the evidence was fake, that's your opinion.

That's what makes Loghain such an unbelievable idiot. He has Teagan basically call him a traitor, and instead of pinning his entire problem on the guy who just up and murdered the most beloved Teyrn in the realm in the middle of the night, he brings him into his camp. It's on a level of stupid with his plan to declare himself regent and basically paint "Guilty Traitor" across Denerim. 

But let's put that aside. What "evidence" are you talking about? 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2013 - 02:37 .

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
If you're talking about what happened after Ostagar, then to be fair, Loghain had Howe and Howe is quite a thrifty person. He was probably keeping things from Loghain. It's in his nature to keep things from people.

That just makes Loghain incompetent at best and an idiot at worst. Kind of like how not immediately executing Howe and blaming Ostagar on his betrayal also makes him an idiot. 

"So Howe, what makes you think you'd be right for the position as my personal aide and consultant?"

"Well I pretended to be friends with Teryn Cousland since youth, until I used the Darkspawn incursion as an excuse to slaughter him, his family, and a good portion of his men (depriving the troops at Ostagar of vital reinforcements in the process), in the slim hope that nobody would notice and I'd just be able to take over his land."

"You're hired!"

Please play the games.

I did. As a human noble, I made sure in every playthrough to inform Cailan and Loghain of Howe's treachery.

Loghain took Howe on anyway.

Loghain is an incompetent, negligent ****wit. Deal with it.

[RazorrX]

Actually, Loghain could not see the battle at Ostagar. That is why you had to light the tower for a signal. He took a large portion of the army and left the king and the wardens to die because he feared an invasion from Orlais. Even his right hand was shocked at his withdraw. He then told everyone that it was a warden trap to kill the king and invade Ferelden.

In the long run he did exactly what Flemeth said he would - he betrayed Maric (by betraying his son).

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
If you're talking about what happened after Ostagar, then to be fair, Loghain had Howe and Howe is quite a thrifty person. He was probably keeping things from Loghain. It's in his nature to keep things from people.

That just makes Loghain incompetent at best and an idiot at worst. Kind of like how not immediately executing Howe and blaming Ostagar on his betrayal also makes him an idiot. 

"So Howe, what makes you think you'd be right for the position as my personal aide and consultant?"

"Well I pretended to be friends with Teryn Cousland since youth, until I used the Darkspawn incursion as an excuse to slaughter him, his family, and a good portion of his men (depriving the troops at Ostagar of vital reinforcements in the process), in the slim hope that nobody would notice and I'd just be able to take over his land."

"You're hired!"

Please play the games.

I did. As a human noble, I made sure in every playthrough to inform Cailan and Loghain of Howe's treachery.

Loghain took Howe on anyway.

Loghain is an incompetent, negligent ****wit. Deal with it.

I have to deal with youropinion? How adorable.

[Mr.House]

RazorrX wrote...

Actually, Loghain could not see the battle at Ostagar. That is why you had to light the tower for a signal. He took a large portion of the army and left the king and the wardens to die because he feared an invasion from Orlais. Even his right hand was shocked at his withdraw. He then told everyone that it was a warden trap to kill the king and invade Ferelden.

In the long run he did exactly what Flemeth said he would - he betrayed Maric (by betraying his son).

Uh no.... the tower was a single to ATTACK. Only peopel facing the horde would know the itme to attack not on the side, which they could see. The tower was not so they could see......

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...
I have to deal with youropinion? How adorable.

It's not "opinion". If you play as a human noble, you can talk to Loghain about what Howe has done.

Loghain hires a known traitor to be his right hand man. If the two were not in cahoots from the beginning, and the writers say they were not, then literally the only explanation is that Loghain is an idiot of monumental proportions. His short-lived reign is marked by nothing but a series of terrible, awful, no good, very bad, obviously moronic decisions.

These are not the actions of a great general or a brilliant tactition or anyone with even half a brain. Loghain shouldn't be trusted with a cup of coffee, let alone a country. And not because he might poison it, but because he might burn himself.

[Xilizhra]

Er, why exactly was it a good idea for Loghain to bring around Howe? I mean, I've never played a human noble so maybe Loghain wouldn't know about the whole Cousland thing until it was too late for me, but it really is rather a plot hole if you do have a human noble.

[In Exile]

The thing with Howe is that he makes the best possible scapegoat as he can justify leaving all the Wardens to die to the Wardens themselves and to Eamon, who was likely closely acquainted with Bryce. Blame it all on Howe, bring Eamon on board, and there's no civil war but a united Ferelden.

Hell, even after everything that happened, Eamon would still have been ready to ally and capitulate to Loghain to protect Ferelden. Teaming up with Howe was just barrels of dumb.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Howe was a snake, but a well connected and conniving snake. A viper like that is good to have on your side. They serve many, many purposes. Some examples would be to get a true understanding of the political landscape to sniff out potential plots by other nobles. Howe would also know how to manipulate, cajole, or otherwise intimidate the right people in order to get the desired results. For someone like Loghain, who is a soldier first and was never much for politics, Howe's mind is an invaluable asset.

I don't doubt for a moment that Loghain knew that Howe was a bastard, but anyone who would refuse his services because he's a Machiavellian ****** is rather short sighted and probably lacks imagination.

[In Exile]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Howe was a snake, but a well connected and conniving snake. A viper like that is good to have on your side. They serve many, many purposes.  

Like being executed for crimes they didn't commit without anyone batting an eye because they're personally unlikeable and recently committed horrible crimes? 

Some examples would be to get a true understanding of the political landscape to sniff out potential plots by other nobles. Howe would also know how to manipulate, cajole, or otherwise intimidate the right people in order to get the desired results. For someone like Loghain, who is a soldier first and was never much for politics, Howe's mind is an invaluable asset.

Giving political power to a traitor who just murdered his ostensible best friend when you're completely ignorant of all things politics and have no base of power is like signing your own death warrant. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

Admittedly Ostagar was doomed from the start as Loghain admitted; Even had their flanking move worked they didn't have the numbers to compete with an unbroken horde. But that said he did salvage a good portion of the Fereldan army.

A King still fell and the Horde marched unchecked due to the chaos unleashed by that battle but Loghain's strategy for the civil war wasn't exactly insane or delusional or idiotic as some people here are making it out to be.

He was fearing an Orlaisian Invasion at the same time the Horde was marching, had that civil war not broken out you would have seen the Borders secured and the Armies turning against the Darkspawn.

He states as much pretty damn plain to the Warden.

He may not have the fire of his Youth but the man isn't stupid.

[Plaintiff]

Master Warder Z wrote...
Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

I dispute his ability to wield cutlery, let alone run an army.

[Master Warder Z_]

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

I dispute his ability to wield cutlery, let alone run an army.

Mmm his history of defeating Elite Orlaisian Divisions that outnumbered his sort of belies that notion though.

He basically won the Nation its freedom at Riverdane, Admittedly the Orlaisian Units weren't as prepared as they were supposed to be given that their reinforcements were delayed due to dragon attacks but you still have him facing down an army three times his own forces size and winning.

The method of this victory isn't revealed but generally when you see something like this, its either tactics, terrain or both that led to it.

[In Exile]

Master Warder Z wrote...
Admittedly Ostagar was doomed from the start as Loghain admitted; Even had their flanking move worked they didn't have the numbers to compete with an unbroken horde. But that said he did salvage a good portion of the Fereldan army.

It's almost like tactical prowess isn't a very useful measure of a medieval military mind by itself when compared with, say, logistics as well. 

And scounting certainly isn't any part of tactics, right? Who cares about knowing what number the enemy has, right? Numbers never impact a military engagement. 

And thinks like morale? Who worries about how to adapt military strategems to mindless killing abominations. Flanking is totally the sort of thing that would break their morale and rout them. 

[Plaintiff]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

I dispute his ability to wield cutlery, let alone run an army.

Mmm his history of defeating Elite Orlaisian Divisions that outnumbered his sort of belies that notion though.

He basically won the Nation its freedom at Riverdane, Admittedly the Orlaisian Units weren't as prepared as they were supposed to be given that their reinforcements were delayed due to dragon attacks but you still have him facing down an army three times his own forces size and winning.

The method of this victory isn't revealed but generally when you see something like this, its either tactics, terrain or both that led to it.

But that was a good thirty years ago, at least. Whatever tactical brilliance he might've shown in the past, there's not a trace of it in DA:O and on top of that, he's a tactless twit.

"I'll just crap all over the memory of our recently deceased, very popular king, who was also my son-in-law and the child of my best friend. Then I'll threaten everyone with violence unless they pledge their allegiance to me. What can go wrong?"

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Admittedly Ostagar was doomed from the start as Loghain admitted; Even had their flanking move worked they didn't have the numbers to compete with an unbroken horde. But that said he did salvage a good portion of the Fereldan army.

It's almost like tactical prowess isn't a very useful measure of a medieval military mind by itself when compared with, say, logistics as well. 

And scounting certainly isn't any part of tactics, right? Who cares about knowing what number the enemy has, right? Numbers never impact a military engagement. 

And thinks like morale? Who worries about how to adapt military strategems to mindless killing abominations. Flanking is totally the sort of thing that would break their morale and rout them. 

Your leaving out that their scouting parties were constantly detected, engaged and destroyed.

You have him likely dealing with rough estimates at best for their numerical strength not to mention considering that they were coming from below into the wilds you likely would need to send scouts extremely deep just to find their source.

That wasn't anywhere a viable option as you well know, He made do with what limited information he had.

And The Logistical issues of Ostagar were as good as they were going to get, you had supply trains and incoming forces coming in up to the battle it self. He did go into that battle unprepared but it wasn't through fault of his own.

And Darkspawn do feel fear, Their lines DO break removing their commanders, inflicting crippling losses and here is the best bit, HAD this worked even had their lines not broken you would see the Horde greatly reduced but the casulities of the battle likely would have been far higher.

Who know's what would have occured had the reserve commited to the battle and flanked the Darkspawn, You also are leaving out the one critical advantage a flanking provides. You cut off incoming Reinforcements and force them to fight on multiple sides. You likely would see their commited forces destroyed the advance would have ended.

Loghain did the best he could with what little he had, it wasn't that he was inept it was that the situation was doomed from the start.

[Taleroth]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

Admittedly Ostagar was doomed from the start as Loghain admitted;

But he didn't admit that until after the fact. And Duncan said it would work. Is Duncan a tactical dunce?

Even had their flanking move worked they didn't have the numbers to compete with an unbroken horde.

Loghain didn't believe it to be a Blight, so as far as he was concerned, they should have been able to break it.

He was fearing an Orlaisian Invasion at the same time the Horde was marching, had that civil war not broken out you would have seen the Borders secured

Secured with what army? He just sacrificed the bulk of it to the horde.

and the Armies turning against the Darkspawn.

You just said he couldn't beat the unbroken horde. How could he defeat the Darkspawn with an even smaller army than he started with while also securing the borders?

He states as much pretty damn plain to the Warden.

Yes, he does. It still doesn't make any sense. He started having witnesses killed. That's not the act of an innocent man.

He allied with Howe, Uldred,  the Tevinter, and tried to have Eamon murdered. None of that is symptomatic of a guy with a sense of strategy or care for Fereldan. The only thing it indicates is the desperation and thirst for power.

If Loghain was anything but a selfish monster, name one thing he gave up that belonged to him. He's very quick to take the lives of others and condone murder, but what did he ever sacrifice?

Take when the Landsmeet rallies against him. Does he step down honorably? No, he tries to kill people. Yet again. It's already decided that the people won't follow him. He still does not care. He would rather leave Fereldan leaderless and in chaos than give up power.

Modifié par Taleroth, 12 septembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

I dispute his ability to wield cutlery, let alone run an army.

Mmm his history of defeating Elite Orlaisian Divisions that outnumbered his sort of belies that notion though.

He basically won the Nation its freedom at Riverdane, Admittedly the Orlaisian Units weren't as prepared as they were supposed to be given that their reinforcements were delayed due to dragon attacks but you still have him facing down an army three times his own forces size and winning.

The method of this victory isn't revealed but generally when you see something like this, its either tactics, terrain or both that led to it.

But that was a good thirty years ago, at least. Whatever tactical brilliance he might've shown in the past, there's not a trace of it in DA:O and on top of that, he's a tactless twit.

"I'll just crap all over the memory of our recently deceased, very popular king, who was also my son-in-law and the child of my best friend. Then I'll threaten everyone with violence unless they pledge their allegiance to me. What can go wrong?"

To be fair, it is very common for someone to be an excellent politician or general and be complete crap at the other one. The skillsets are almost mutually exclusive.

[Master Warder Z_]

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

I dispute his ability to wield cutlery, let alone run an army.

Mmm his history of defeating Elite Orlaisian Divisions that outnumbered his sort of belies that notion though.

He basically won the Nation its freedom at Riverdane, Admittedly the Orlaisian Units weren't as prepared as they were supposed to be given that their reinforcements were delayed due to dragon attacks but you still have him facing down an army three times his own forces size and winning.

The method of this victory isn't revealed but generally when you see something like this, its either tactics, terrain or both that led to it.

But that was a good thirty years ago, at least. Whatever tactical brilliance he might've shown in the past, there's not a trace of it in DA:O and on top of that, he's a tactless twit.

"I'll just crap all over the memory of our recently deceased, very popular king, who was also my son-in-law and the child of my best friend. Then I'll threaten everyone with violence unless they pledge their allegiance to me. What can go wrong?"

I admit he was incorrect in attempting to force the Bannorn to issue levies to rebuild the army lost but he did need it. His plan againas previously mentioned called upon securing the borders and routing the Horde on its advance North.

But it could also be equally said that he was using his Daughter the Queen as the Icon to draw support, He understood the importance of the Therin bloodline, He pledged an oath to see Maric sat on the throne, He had more fealty to that line then i think many give him credit for.

But my point is, He had a surviving monarch backing his claim, it could be agrued that he underestimated the political situation and Howe's meddling certainly didn't help but the situation was grim and he was running on a very limited timetable.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, why exactly was it a good idea for Loghain to bring around Howe? I mean, I've never played a human noble so maybe Loghain wouldn't know about the whole Cousland thing until it was too late for me, but it really is rather a plot hole if you do have a human noble.

FYI, Loghain knew about the Cousland massacre before the battle of Ostagar.  He heard it directly from Cailan, so yes, he knew all along that Howe couldn't be trusted.

[In Exile]

Master Warder Z wrote..

Your leaving out that their scouting parties were constantly detected, engaged and destroyed.

I might not be a genius like Loghain, but having 100% of my scouting parties come back dead would be ringing alarm bells for me. It's one of those signs that the enemy might be just a tad bit more than I expected. 

You have him likely dealing with rough estimates at best for their numerical strength not to mention considerng that they were coming from below into the wilds you likely would need to send scouts extremely deep just to find their source.

It's almost like picking Ostagar was a terrible decision (tactically) when you consider that it was sorrounded by forest that prevented Ferelden from getting a clear view of the battlefield. Of course, since the alternative was to give the darkspawn a clear path into the country they were between a rock and a hard place. 

Too bad their entire plan was "flank the unknown and unpredictably large force" that the GWs say is an apocalypse in the making. 

That wasn't anywhere a viable option as you well know, He made do with what limited information he had.

He had limited information. He didn't "make due" with it.

And Darkspawn do feel fear, Their lines DO break removing their commanders, inflicting crippling losses and here is the best bit, HAD this worked even had their lines not broken you would see the Horde greatly reduced but the casulities of the battle likely would have been far higher.

We nenver saw the darkspawn break. The only time that happened was when the archdemon died. And yes, if Loghain followed his battle plan, he would have died. Which indicates, you know, that the plan was competely garbage since there was no plan B but let 50% of the army die, run away, and allow the darskpawn a clear path to raid 50% of Ferelden inside of 2 months.

Who know's what would have occured had the reserve commited to the battle and flanked the Darkspawn, You also are leaving out the one critical advantage a flanking provides. You cut off incoming Reinforcements and force them to fight on multiple sides. You likely would see their commited forces destroyed the advance would have ended.

You don't cut off reinforcements when you flank when you don't know what numbers you're delaing with.  Look at the simple diagram I drew:

[Ostagar] [Wall][Wall][Wall] 
[Darkspawn] [Loghain] [Darkspawn]. 
                       [Darkspawn]

Loghain would be massacred. "Flanking" only works when you are aware you're not outnumbered 100:1 and are risking encirclement by running straight into the enemy forces. 

Which is why the plan without any scouting is d.u.m.b. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Taleroth wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Some people are disputing Loghain's tactical prowess here?

Admittedly Ostagar was doomed from the start as Loghain admitted;

But he didn't admit that until after the fact. And Duncan said it would work. Is Duncan a tactical dunce?

Even had their flanking move worked they didn't have the numbers to compete with an unbroken horde.

Loghain didn't believe it to be a Blight, so as far as he was concerned, they should have been able to break it.

He was fearing an Orlaisian Invasion at the same time the Horde was marching, had that civil war not broken out you would have seen the Borders secured

Secured with what army? He just sacrificed the bulk of it to the horde.

and the Armies turning against the Darkspawn.

You just said he couldn't beat the unbroken horde. How could he defeat the Darkspawn with an even smaller army than he started with while also securing the borders?

He states as much pretty damn plain to the Warden.

Yes, he does. It still doesn't make any sense. He started having witnesses killed. That's not the act of an innocent man.

He allied with Howe, Uldred,  the Tevinter, and tried to have Eamon murdered. None of that is symptomatic of a guy with a sense of strategy or care for Fereldan. The only thing it indicates is the desperation and thirst for power.

If Loghain was anything but a selfish monster, name one thing he gave up that belonged to him. He's very quick to take the lives of others and condone murder, but what did he ever sacrifice?

Loghain didn't believe in the Blight outright as Calien did admittedly but that didn't stop him from checking with whatever limited intel was coming out of the wilds to check for signs of dragon activity. But you don't need to believe in the Blight to realize that even had the Horde commited, the signal worked that their sheer numerical advantage would have won them the day more likely then not.

And He allied with these people out of need to defend his Home; Mages would be needed to fight the Darkspawn and the existing enchanter was proving quite resistant at sending down able mages, and the Knight Commander wasn't helping things either.

Slavery as his second explained was the need to refill the coffers after a brutal civil war that was bankrupting the Nation, That money would be needed to rebuild and fight the true enemy. And Howe was at the time the most powerful land holding Arl within the Nation, He had the resources, information and troops to bolster loghain and his military after Ostagar.

And Eamon was an unknown element; He supported the Therin bloodline to an extreme as Loghain stated he wouldn't want a ruler however capable if he didn't have that bloodline he very well could have been the instigator of the civil war in place of his brother.

And once the Border was secured as his plan explained he would then focus upon the Darkspawn, So then you have all these resources had built up for this singular purpose being commited. Mages, Levy Troops, Professional Soldiers, The Bannorn hopefully you would see an army of equal or greater size then the one lost at Ostagar, not to mention his own personal reserve forces.

And what the man himself lost?

His Father? He swore to Defend Fereldan; He swore to serve Maric.

The Man may have made a lot of mistakes, turned his back on his Liege and turned to horrible acts but it was for that purpose.

To defend his homeland.

[In Exile]

Taleroth wrote...
But he didn't admit that until after the fact. And Duncan said it would work. Is Duncan a tactical dunce?

To be fair, Duncan is also from the Riordan school of dragon slaying tactics.  The disaster at Ostagar is a good deal his fault. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2013 - 03:36 .