375 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadyKat]

Not sure how a corpse would affect gameplay at all...........Unless he s a zombie! :-D

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote..

Your leaving out that their scouting parties were constantly detected, engaged and destroyed.

I might not be a genius like Loghain, but having 100% of my scouting parties come back dead would be ringing alarm bells for me. It's one of those signs that the enemy might be just a tad bit more than I expected. 

You have him likely dealing with rough estimates at best for their numerical strength not to mention considerng that they were coming from below into the wilds you likely would need to send scouts extremely deep just to find their source.

It's almost like picking Ostagar was a terrible decision (tactically) when you consider that it was sorrounded by forest that prevented Ferelden from getting a clear view of the battlefield. Of course, since the alternative was to give the darkspawn a clear path into the country they were between a rock and a hard place. 

Too bad their entire plan was "flank the unknown and unpredictably large force" that the GWs say is an apocalypse in the making. 

That wasn't anywhere a viable option as you well know, He made do with what limited information he had.

He had limited information. He didn't "make due" with it.

And Darkspawn do feel fear, Their lines DO break removing their commanders, inflicting crippling losses and here is the best bit, HAD this worked even had their lines not broken you would see the Horde greatly reduced but the casulities of the battle likely would have been far higher.

We nenver saw the darkspawn break. The only time that happened was when the archdemon died. And yes, if Loghain followed his battle plan, he would have died. Which indicates, you know, that the plan was competely garbage since there was no plan B but let 50% of the army die, run away, and allow the darskpawn a clear path to raid 50% of Ferelden inside of 2 months.

Who know's what would have occured had the reserve commited to the battle and flanked the Darkspawn, You also are leaving out the one critical advantage a flanking provides. You cut off incoming Reinforcements and force them to fight on multiple sides. You likely would see their commited forces destroyed the advance would have ended.

You don't cut off reinforcements when you flank when you don't know what numbers you're delaing with.  Look at the simple diagram I drew:

[Ostagar] [Wall][Wall][Wall] 
[Darkspawn] [Loghain] [Darkspawn]. 
                       [Darkspawn]

Loghain would be massacred. "Flanking" only works when you are aware you're not outnumbered 100:1 and are risking encirclement by running straight into the enemy forces. 

Which is why the plan without any scouting is d.u.m.b. 

Heh indeed, Scouting is a vital essence in combat even in the Modern Age when you can use all sorts of other toys, Soldiers on the ground generally grant perspective that electronic eyes lack.

You raise a valid point you know, But when your Liege orders you to do something even as a High Noblemen you have to comply. You might be able to scream at him, beg him to change his mind and look for any alternative you can but when you get an order from the King to secure a position, make it ready for war and dig up as much intel as you can within a limited table time you do what you have to do.

Calien wanted his War, Loghain begged him if you listen to his Guards not to be upon the Frontlines, To not be there to begin with. I have a feeling Loghain knew from the start the damn thing was a doomed effort even if he does only say so in hindsight.

Ostogar was chosen, Loghain did the best he could with what he had given to him and he produced the best plan he had.

It failed, he retreated with his reserves rather then commit to a pointless battle.

[dragonflight288]

I'm on the fence when it comes to Loghain. I spared him this latest playthrough, and I listened to what he had to say, and it's added a whole new perspective of things that I lacked, and I'm all for giving it some serious thought, and Loghain does have several legitimate points. On the other hand, a lot of what he did is reprehensible, and there's no way he didn't know about Howe's attack on the Cousland's.

I still think it would be cool to see him make a cameo if he lives, and after listening to what he said in Return to Ostagar, as well as going over Ostagar again in my latest playthrough, I'm now inclined to believe that the battle at Ostagar couldn't be won, even if Loghain committed his troops to the fight.

On a side note, I didn't care at all for the fact that Loghain pretty much said we should leave Cailan's body to the wolves as if he were nothing more than another casualty of war, and a lot of what he did is still reprehensible.

However, I have now come to think that Ostagar simply couldn't be won.

[Master Warder Z_]

As i said prior to the little debate though i really do hope he pops up for at least a Cameo if he survived but then i was hoping that for DA 2 and nothing came of it.

Besides him being mentioned briefly by Alistair as still being alive and the king still being pissy and moaning about it.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 12 septembre 2013 - 04:08 .

[dragonflight288]

Miscellaneous Mind wrote...

I'm not sure how a headless corpse would affect my game, but that would be interesting to see.

His corpse could be possessed by a horseman demon. Riding around the countryside looking for his head.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Miscellaneous Mind wrote...

I'm not sure how a headless corpse would affect my game, but that would be interesting to see.

His corpse could be possessed by a horseman demon. Riding around the countryside looking for his head.

I figure he will be doing something involving the Wardens assuming he survived given he was going to Orlais although what he would be doing i have no clue.

He probably is enjoying watching the painted fops kill each other.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Miscellaneous Mind wrote...

I'm not sure how a headless corpse would affect my game, but that would be interesting to see.

^

[Martyr1777]

This thread has actually done an amazing job as showing what I think is an unfinished character at the time of DAO, being Logain of course.

Everything he did early on, turning his back as Ostagar, relenting to Cailan in the first place, making Howe his right hand, taking the regency, and threatening the Bannorn. ALL of that was indeed utterly moronic and showed him as a waste of human flesh.

The regrets expressed later are much better and reflect the Loghain of Stolen Throne as well. In Stolen Throne he NEVER backed down when he was right, he would force Maric to do things if it meant a stronger safer Fereldan (like kill his own love), wouldn't even consider siding with a noble that stabbed ANY loyal Fereldan in the back commoner or noble, and he sure as hell wouldn't have left the King to his death with out even TRYING to stop it.

I mean really.. if he could force Maric to kill the woman he loved in the pursuit of a stronger Fereldan, or risk his neck in the very first pitched battle they fought together to save the rebellion from being crushed... Well then why the hell wouldn't he have made Cailan cry like the child he was to get him to back down from the battle, or at the very least put Howe tot he sword himself for causing more damage and risk tot he land with his greed.

DAO Loghain and Stolen Throne Loghain are really not the same person. I despised Loghain when I played DAO, having just read the book a couple months ago I really respect the character now. But still the actions in DAO were pathetic and stupid. He was just an unfinished character.

[Captain Obvious]

Martyr1777 wrote...

This thread has actually done an amazing job as showing what I think is an unfinished character at the time of DAO, being Logain of course.

Everything he did early on, turning his back as Ostagar, relenting to Cailan in the first place, making Howe his right hand, taking the regency, and threatening the Bannorn. ALL of that was indeed utterly moronic and showed him as a waste of human flesh.

The regrets expressed later are much better and reflect the Loghain of Stolen Throne as well. In Stolen Throne he NEVER backed down when he was right, he would force Maric to do things if it meant a stronger safer Fereldan (like kill his own love), wouldn't even consider siding with a noble that stabbed ANY loyal Fereldan in the back commoner or noble, and he sure as hell wouldn't have left the King to his death with out even TRYING to stop it.

I mean really.. if he could force Maric to kill the woman he loved in the pursuit of a stronger Fereldan, or risk his neck in the very first pitched battle they fought together to save the rebellion from being crushed... Well then why the hell wouldn't he have made Cailan cry like the child he was to get him to back down from the battle, or at the very least put Howe tot he sword himself for causing more damage and risk tot he land with his greed.

DAO Loghain and Stolen Throne Loghain are really not the same person. I despised Loghain when I played DAO, having just read the book a couple months ago I really respect the character now. But still the actions in DAO were pathetic and stupid. He was just an unfinished character.

Loghain's decision to leave Cailan was a good one and there was no chance of saving him. Howe's a pretty good politician, the problem is that Loghain didn't expect Howe to keep things from him.

[Mister Gusty]

Hey everyone, pretty new to posting on the forums here,

mainly been reading peoples thoughts but on this thread a lot of people bring up the "well if he could convince Maric," card, I may be wrong as I have not read the books but from what I gathered Maric is nothing like Cailan and would be capable of using reason(something Cailan seems to lack completely) to see Loghains side of things instead of Cailans constant "I wanna play with the Grey Wardens," thing.

Also on the wiki it says "Conversation with Cailan's confidante, Elric Maraigne, at the beginning of Return to Ostagar reveals that Cailan knew the Battle of Ostagar would be lost," so why he wanted to be on the front lines is beyond me and just re-enforces the fact that he was a fool.

[Captain Obvious]

Mister Gusty wrote...

Hey everyone, pretty new to posting on the forums here,

mainly been reading peoples thoughts but on this thread a lot of people bring up the "well if he could convince Maric," card, I may be wrong as I have not read the books but from what I gathered Maric is nothing like Cailan and would be capable of using reason(something Cailan seems to lack completely) to see Loghains side of things instead of Cailans constant "I wanna play with the Grey Wardens," thing.

Also on the wiki it says "Conversation with Cailan's confidante, Elric Maraigne, at the beginning of Return to Ostagar reveals that Cailan knew the Battle of Ostagar would be lost," so why he wanted to be on the front lines is beyond me and just re-enforces the fact that he was a fool.

I agree with everything you've said. Cailan was truly unfit to be King and I'm glad that that ****er is dead.

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 12 septembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Mister Gusty wrote...

Hey everyone, pretty new to posting on the forums here,

mainly been reading peoples thoughts but on this thread a lot of people bring up the "well if he could convince Maric," card, I may be wrong as I have not read the books but from what I gathered Maric is nothing like Cailan and would be capable of using reason(something Cailan seems to lack completely) to see Loghains side of things instead of Cailans constant "I wanna play with the Grey Wardens," thing.

Also on the wiki it says "Conversation with Cailan's confidante, Elric Maraigne, at the beginning of Return to Ostagar reveals that Cailan knew the Battle of Ostagar would be lost," so why he wanted to be on the front lines is beyond me and just re-enforces the fact that he was a fool.

I agree with everything you've said. Cailan was truly unfit to be King and I'm glad that that ****er is dead.

Indeed i do believe people blame Loghain because he is easier to hate then a fallen king.

[In Exile]

Master Warder Z wrote...
Heh indeed, Scouting is a vital essence in combat even in the Modern Age when you can use all sorts of other toys, Soldiers on the ground generally grant perspective that electronic eyes lack. 

You raise a valid point you know, But when your Liege orders you to do something even as a High Noblemen you have to comply.  

That's not a compelling argument when we're talking about a person willing to abandon his King if it ostensibly made tactical sense, which is the defence for Loghain in the situation. 

Cailan said straight up he'd take up whatever plan Loghain had. He was clearly defering to them. He just wanted glory and to kill darkspawn. 

You might be able to scream at him, beg him to change his mind and look for any alternative you can but when you get an order from the King to secure a position, make it ready for war and dig up as much intel as you can within a limited table time you do what you have to do.

Then allowing the darkspawn to filter through a killzone at Ostagar (if that was the only way around) would make much more sense as a way to thin their numbers than meeting them inside the thin gates. 

Ostogar was chosen, Loghain did the best he could with what he had given to him and he produced the best plan he had.

It failed, he retreated with his reserves rather then commit to a pointless battle. 

The whole argument here is that whether or not Loghain did the best he could do, it wasn't the best that could have been done. 

[In Exile]

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Loghain's decision to leave Cailan was a good one and there was no chance of saving him. Howe's a pretty good politician, the problem is that Loghain didn't expect Howe to keep things from him.

That's one of the things that makes Loghain an idiot. Not expecting that the person who brutally murdered their ostensible best friend in the middle of the night to steal his lands would be dishonest is just borderline absurd. 

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Heh indeed, Scouting is a vital essence in combat even in the Modern Age when you can use all sorts of other toys, Soldiers on the ground generally grant perspective that electronic eyes lack. 

You raise a valid point you know, But when your Liege orders you to do something even as a High Noblemen you have to comply.  

That's not a compelling argument when we're talking about a person willing to abandon his King if it ostensibly made tactical sense, which is the defence for Loghain in the situation. 

Cailan said straight up he'd take up whatever plan Loghain had. He was clearly defering to them. He just wanted glory and to kill darkspawn. 

You might be able to scream at him, beg him to change his mind and look for any alternative you can but when you get an order from the King to secure a position, make it ready for war and dig up as much intel as you can within a limited table time you do what you have to do.

Then allowing the darkspawn to filter through a killzone at Ostagar (if that was the only way around) would make much more sense as a way to thin their numbers than meeting them inside the thin gates. 

Ostogar was chosen, Loghain did the best he could with what he had given to him and he produced the best plan he had.

It failed, he retreated with his reserves rather then commit to a pointless battle. 

The whole argument here is that whether or not Loghain did the best he could do, it wasn't the best that could have been done. 

Really? So the fact Calien ordering the Army South and forcing Loghain into this downward spiral does nothing to deter you from placing the Ostagar situation upon him?  You have precious few choices when it comes to the defense of Ostagar funneling the forces into the Canyon made tactical sense if the surrounding positions held.

You have a killzone for Catpaults, Archers and Mages to project firepower down upon the advancing horde all the while forcing the Darkspawn to Commit, Loghain had a tactically sound battle plan. The issue is that for reasons outside of his control his information on the Hordes strength wasn't anywhere near up to par.

Otherwise i think he would have been a bit more firm in ordering the king from the Field, He did so repeatedly but i think his efforts would have been far more concentrated had he knew the doom coming to them. I suspect he knew Ostagar couldn't be won when he saw the King's position being overrun and the strength of the horde making it self known, Then it would be obvious to any one with the basis of his tactics to understand his strategy had been DOA.

So ultimately you have their Best general doing the little he could do and the situation proving that Calien had made a horrible move in the location of the battle and his Haste. He still had forces trickling into Ostagar the night of the Battle, Loghain was undermanned, Underinformed and being forced into this situation by a fool King who just happened to be the sire of the man he pledged his life to sitting on a throne.

You can see from Ostagar and the Battle Field Loghain had prepared as many defensive measures to weaken the Horde as it pressed as time allowed, However i point to the failure of his scouts as the crucial reason for the failure of the Battle, had the Hordes strength been known i do believe Loghain would have ordered the Army into Retreat and if he had too dragged calien back to the capital.

But from what little he did know he prepared a fairly well done killzone and funneling point for their main force to meet the Horde. The Issue is though that though these efforts were well done, They just weren't enough to counter sheer numeric superiority.

[Steelcan]

I really want to know where the Ferelden cavalry was at Ostagar

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

I really want to know where the Ferelden cavalry was at Ostagar

Silly Steel Horses don't exist in Ferelden.

*Nods Sagely*

They all died in the Horse Famine of 8:72 Blessed

[Former_Fiend]

You know, I honestly don't see the point of this debate. This is simple; if you didn't like Loghain then you didn't spare him so he is dead in your play through so it won't affect you at all.

If you spared Alistair, it doesn't matter how- wandering drunk, grey warden, or king- he shows up in DAII.

For those of us who chose Loghain, we simply want him to have a bigger role than Alistair saying "sadly, Loghain still lives." We want to see our guy again. We want to hear Simon Templeman's awesome voice acting again.

Is that so wrong?

[Ryzaki]

...Shouldn't Loghain be dead by DAI times?

Especially with the short grey warden lifespawn.

He wasn't exactly in his prime in DAO.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:17 .

[Former_Fiend]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Shouldn't Loghain be dead by DAI times?

Especially with the short grey warden lifespawn.

Not necessarily. Should have at least another ten years till his Calling.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Shouldn't Loghain be dead by DAI times?

Especially with the short grey warden lifespawn.

Its stated to take place a decade or a little over from Orgins and the ending of the Fifth Blight if my assumption is correct and it does tie in with the Orlaisian Civil war and the Mage Templar Conflict.

Warden's do have a fairly short lifespan compared to normal elves or Humans but Loghain was only in his early 50s when he became one.

He would be about near the end of his road by the time of DA:I Came around true even with out the Taint but its fairly likely he would still be around.

He just wouldn't be leading men into battle anymore.

[Ryzaki]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Shouldn't Loghain be dead by DAI times?

Especially with the short grey warden lifespawn.

Not necessarily. Should have at least another ten years till his Calling.

I thought Gaider shortenened the lifespawn to about 10 years give or take instead of the 30 Alistair originally said in DAO? Least I heard that somewhere on this forum.

Master Warder Z  wrote...

Its stated to take place a decade or a little over from Orgins and the
ending of the Fifth Blight if my assumption is correct and it does tie
in with the Orlaisian Civil war and the Mage Templar Conflict.

Warden's
do have a fairly short lifespan compared to normal elves or Humans but
Loghain was only in his early 50s when he became one.

He would be
about near the end of his road by the time of DA:I Came around true
even with out the Taint but its fairly likely he would still be around.

He just wouldn't be leading men into battle anymore

50s isn't young though. Plus how long is the average lifespawn in Thedas anyway? Not to mention being in his 50s when he was made a Warden doesn't sound like it'd be all that great for him. If anything the taint sounds like it'd hit him harder than someone who was fairly young when they did it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[Steelcan]

nvm

Modifié par Steelcan, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[d4eaming]

Hopefully he won't, since his head has parted ways with his body. Still annoyed at Leliana being around, as I never cared for her, but at least I can tolerate her somewhat. Loghain being rezzed and put into my party or being stationed somewhere would seriously peev me off. Both my Wardens were elves, they did not take kindly to their people being sold into slavery, among all the other stuff.