375 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Former_Fiend wrote...

I don't think he ever dies in game. One of the epilogues for Awakening has him dying, I think. But, well, see Anders.

And I take it you have a problem with Oghren?

Anders is why I'd rather we not ignore more character deaths. We already have Anders and Leliana evading death.

Yep. Drunken oaf and lousy father. (and to make ti worse even if in DAO he gets decent he goes right back to garbage in DAA. I couldn't be bothered helping him again.)

[Master Warder Z_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I don't think he ever dies in game. One of the epilogues for Awakening has him dying, I think. But, well, see Anders.

And I take it you have a problem with Oghren?

Anders is why I'd rather we not ignore more character deaths. We already have Anders and Leliana evading death.

Yep. Drunken oaf and lousy father. (and to make ti worse even if in DAO he gets decent he goes right back to garbage in DAA. I couldn't be bothered helping him again.)

He made up for his sins with that one line.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 13 septembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[Han Shot First]

The Hierophant wrote...

The majority of the Olesians we encountered in both games looked down on the Fereldens while Celene insulted the whole country when she praised Anora. I doubt the Fereldens would be treated fairly when they are not even respected by them to begin with.

Considering that Celene is a master at court intrigue i wouldn't put it past her to assassinate Cailan after their marriage in an effort to take the Ferelden throne with little resistance.

Orlais is also a much more powerful kingdom than Ferelden. If the two nations were to unite under a single monarchy, Ferelden would no doubt end up playing second fiddle to Orlais. Ferelden would be Scotland to Orlais' England.

That all being said I still had my Warden separate Loghain's head from his neck. While he have been somewhat justifiably paranoid about Calian's intentions, it wasn't enough for my Warden to turn a blind eye to the murder of his family and the loss of their hereditary fiefdom and titles. And he betrayed not only his king at Ostagar but his kingdom. Blood for blood.

[Master Warder Z_]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The majority of the Olesians we encountered in both games looked down on the Fereldens while Celene insulted the whole country when she praised Anora. I doubt the Fereldens would be treated fairly when they are not even respected by them to begin with.

Considering that Celene is a master at court intrigue i wouldn't put it past her to assassinate Cailan after their marriage in an effort to take the Ferelden throne with little resistance.

Orlais is also a much more powerful kingdom than Ferelden. If the two nations were to unite under a single monarchy, Ferelden would no doubt end up playing second fiddle to Orlais. Ferelden would be Scotland to Orlais' England.

That all being said I still had my Warden separate Loghain's head from his neck. While he have been somewhat justifiably paranoid about Calian's intentions, it wasn't enough for my Warden to turn a blind eye to the murder of his family and the loss of their hereditary fiefdom and titles. And he betrayed not only his king at Ostagar but his kingdom. Blood for blood.

Eh Yes and no; Orlais has a much greater military then their Frelden counterparts tis true but they also have little viable access points for a mass influx of military force as the final days of the rebellion showed.

You disrupt their lines a little and you have entire divisions having to reroute through the mountains, There are a few crossing here and there but the main pass going up near the Dwarven Kingdom is the most used but with out the element of surprise which was critical in their initial invasion you see what Loghain did to them at River Dane occuring again.

Taking advantage of a Supply train issue and olbliterating them; They have better warriors and more of them but Felerden has immensely easy to defend Terrain.

At least against Human opponents.

And Loghain has never betrayed his land; When the Landsmeet met and declared a duel to be decided him doing anything after losing but taking execution or placement into the Warden's would have been a betrayal. However him leaving a soon to be dead man and saving hundreds of soldiers from a tactically unwinnable situation isn't a betrayal.

It was just one more casuality in a horrible war.

[Ihatebadgames]

Oath breaker is dead and smelly. In all saves. If only he can save the world in DA:O,world dies. I will never let the oath breaker live. Didn't like him in the SNES version circa 93-95.

[Captain Obvious]

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Loghain's decision to leave Cailan was a good one and there was no chance of saving him. Howe's a pretty good politician, the problem is that Loghain didn't expect Howe to keep things from him.

That's one of the things that makes Loghain an idiot. Not expecting that the person who brutally murdered their ostensible best friend in the middle of the night to steal his lands would be dishonest is just borderline absurd. 

Thing is, I don't think he thought that he had much of a choice. I think he chose Howe as his right-hand man out of desperation. To be honest, I'm not really sure if Loghain was aware that Howe would do things behind his back.

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 13 septembre 2013 - 11:36 .

[Plaintiff]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Loghain's decision to leave Cailan was a good one and there was no chance of saving him. Howe's a pretty good politician, the problem is that Loghain didn't expect Howe to keep things from him.

That's one of the things that makes Loghain an idiot. Not expecting that the person who brutally murdered their ostensible best friend in the middle of the night to steal his lands would be dishonest is just borderline absurd. 

Thing is, I don't think he thought that he had much of a choice. I think he chose Howe as his right-hand man out of desperation. To be honest, I'm not really sure if Loghain was aware that Howe would do things behind his back.

So Loghain is incompetent, yes?

[Former_Fiend]

Plaintiff wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Loghain's decision to leave Cailan was a good one and there was no chance of saving him. Howe's a pretty good politician, the problem is that Loghain didn't expect Howe to keep things from him.

That's one of the things that makes Loghain an idiot. Not expecting that the person who brutally murdered their ostensible best friend in the middle of the night to steal his lands would be dishonest is just borderline absurd. 

Thing is, I don't think he thought that he had much of a choice. I think he chose Howe as his right-hand man out of desperation. To be honest, I'm not really sure if Loghain was aware that Howe would do things behind his back.

So Loghain is incompetent, yes?

Loghain is an incompetent politician who made the mistake of making a political scheme.

As big of a Loghain fan as I am, and at the risk of becoming a broken record I'm going to say again that I have only chosen Alistair over Loghain once in a dozen playthroughs, I don't play the "It was all Howe's fault!" card. Howe was Loghain's underling and as such, Loghain is at least partly responsible for his actions(though I do believe that the ultimate responsibility for anyone's actions is personal, not with who gives the orders.)

None of this changes the fact that he is an extremely competent military commander and warrior who is willing to do whatever it takes, short of killing his own daughter, to get the job done. That makes him too useful an asset to throw away over petty vengeance, and a much better grey warden than Alistair could ever hope to be.

[MWImexico]

"petty vengeance" ? I don't know, if it was my brothers and sisters in arms who would have been sacrificed like that, I think I also would have reacted badly. It's dificult to stay rational when you are concerned directly / personaly. But about Loghain, the question is, can we forgive any crime if it's done for the good of Ferelden? What about the elves who were sold to Tevinter, what about the poisoning of arl Eamon, of the torture of the nobles and the sequestration of the templar who was in charge of Jowan? What is the point to protect Ferelden from the Orlesian if in the end you become like them? Can one person decide of what is good for Ferelden and what is bad? Loghain is a competent military commander but in the end he was wrong about the blight and about the nobility of Ferelden, he almost destroyed the land he was trying to protect because of his bad judgment and lack of humility.

[Former_Fiend]

MWImexico wrote...

"petty vengeance" ? I don't know, if it was my brothers and sisters in arms who would have been sacrificed like that, I think I also would have reacted badly. It's dificult to stay rational when you are concerned directly / personaly. But about Loghain, the question is, can we forgive any crime if it's done for the good of Ferelden? What about the elves who were sold to Tevinter, what about the poisoning of arl Eamon, of the torture of the nobles and the sequestration of the templar who was in charge of Jowan? What is the point to protect Ferelden from the Orlesian if in the end you become like them? Can one person decide of what is good for Ferelden and what is bad? Loghain is a competent military commander but in the end he was wrong about the blight and about the nobility of Ferelden, he almost destroyed the land he was trying to protect because of his bad judgment and lack of humility.

Every grey warden knew they might not be coming back from that battle, and there is no guarentee(I don't even think it's likely) that the intervention of Loghain's forces would have saved them.

In addition, when playing on a Cousland warden, this comes quickly after killing Howe, which gives some perspective on just how empty vengeance is. Sure, you get that warm, fuzzy feeling, but killing Loghain wouldn't bring Duncan or the others back. It wouldn't do anyone any good beyond serving the abstract notion of justice.

Being a warden isn't about justice. It's about getting the job done and using the tools at your disposal. Loghain's willing to do that. Alistair isn't.

[Karlone123]

Loghain is alive in my default import, so it would be interesting to see Loghain in a small cameo, he's either mellowed out in his time in Orlais or still bitter and hateful of the country.

[Karlone123]

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

"petty vengeance" ? I don't know, if it was my brothers and sisters in arms who would have been sacrificed like that, I think I also would have reacted badly. It's dificult to stay rational when you are concerned directly / personaly. But about Loghain, the question is, can we forgive any crime if it's done for the good of Ferelden? What about the elves who were sold to Tevinter, what about the poisoning of arl Eamon, of the torture of the nobles and the sequestration of the templar who was in charge of Jowan? What is the point to protect Ferelden from the Orlesian if in the end you become like them? Can one person decide of what is good for Ferelden and what is bad? Loghain is a competent military commander but in the end he was wrong about the blight and about the nobility of Ferelden, he almost destroyed the land he was trying to protect because of his bad judgment and lack of humility.

Every grey warden knew they might not be coming back from that battle, and there is no guarentee(I don't even think it's likely) that the intervention of Loghain's forces would have saved them.

In addition, when playing on a Cousland warden, this comes quickly after killing Howe, which gives some perspective on just how empty vengeance is. Sure, you get that warm, fuzzy feeling, but killing Loghain wouldn't bring Duncan or the others back. It wouldn't do anyone any good beyond serving the abstract notion of justice.

Being a warden isn't about justice. It's about getting the job done and using the tools at your disposal. Loghain's willing to do that. Alistair isn't.

You'd also have to consider telling Alistair that recruiting Loghain is what Duncan would have also have done, is it right to deny a person a chance of redemption? Or give up a warrior with a lifetime experience of combat and tactics? Alistair is just so emotional about Loghain, he cannot see straight.


Alistair when it comes to revenge against Loghain.

Modifié par Karlone123, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:12 .

[MWImexico]

At least, he should have try to save his king, if Cailan had survived, I'm pretty sure he would have understood his mistake and learn from it (like Maric did learn from his own mistakes). Even Cauthrien was ready to go into the battle, no one expected Loghain to simply go away. There are moments where justice doesn't seems so abstract and a décision must be taken, the public opinion is greatly shaken by those type of decisions (abandon the king or not, spare Loghain or not). I think a country works better if the peoples living in it can be assured that "some" justice exists, laws, etc. and that no one is above it (even if you are good at what you do).

Modifié par MWImexico, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:17 .

[In Exile]

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Thing is, I don't think he thought that he had much of a choice. I think he chose Howe as his right-hand man out of desperation. To be honest, I'm not really sure if Loghain was aware that Howe would do things behind his back.

Eamon practically worshiped Loghain. Even after Loghain tried to kill him, Eamon (i) can't believe it because of Loghain's reputation and (ii) is willing to surrender to him for the sake of Ferelden. 

If Loghain came to Eamon, blamed Howe for killing the beloved loyalist Bryce Cousland and pinning Ostagar on Howe's betrayal, then Loghain could have used Eamon to avoid a political war. Remember who caused the entire uprising? It was Teagan, and it was because Eamon was already out of the picture by that point. 

At most, Eamon's price would have been Alistair. And that's assuming Alistair was even alive. 

[Plaintiff]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Loghain's decision to leave Cailan was a good one and there was no chance of saving him. Howe's a pretty good politician, the problem is that Loghain didn't expect Howe to keep things from him.

That's one of the things that makes Loghain an idiot. Not expecting that the person who brutally murdered their ostensible best friend in the middle of the night to steal his lands would be dishonest is just borderline absurd. 

Thing is, I don't think he thought that he had much of a choice. I think he chose Howe as his right-hand man out of desperation. To be honest, I'm not really sure if Loghain was aware that Howe would do things behind his back.

So Loghain is incompetent, yes?

Loghain is an incompetent politician who made the mistake of making a political scheme.

As big of a Loghain fan as I am, and at the risk of becoming a broken record I'm going to say again that I have only chosen Alistair over Loghain once in a dozen playthroughs, I don't play the "It was all Howe's fault!" card. Howe was Loghain's underling and as such, Loghain is at least partly responsible for his actions(though I do believe that the ultimate responsibility for anyone's actions is personal, not with who gives the orders.)

None of this changes the fact that he is an extremely competent military commander and warrior who is willing to do whatever it takes, short of killing his own daughter, to get the job done. That makes him too useful an asset to throw away over petty vengeance, and a much better grey warden than Alistair could ever hope to be.

I've yet to see Loghain display anything close to what I'd consider decent military strategy, and in any case, his position in the upcoming battle will be as a grunt on the front lines, not as a position of command. The man is in his sixties, and just lost to me (or one of my companions) in a one-on-one duel. I'm supposed to bring him along to slay a giant dragon?

[Plaintiff]

Karlone123 wrote...
You'd also have to consider telling Alistair that recruiting Loghain is what Duncan would have also have done, is it right to deny a person a chance of redemption? Or give up a warrior with a lifetime experience of combat and tactics? Alistair is just so emotional about Loghain, he cannot see straight.


Alistair when it comes to revenge against Loghain.

Redemption from what? Pinning a murder notice on my head? Waging war on his fellow countrymen? Selling citizens into slavery?

There's not enough lipstick in the world for that pig.

[Lavaeolus]

In Exile wrote...

Eamon practically worshiped Loghain. Even after Loghain tried to kill him, Eamon (i) can't believe it because of Loghain's reputation and (ii) is willing to surrender to him for the sake of Ferelden.

Side note: the poison was non-fatal. While Eamon dying was a risk, and Loghain wouldn't have shed too many tears, Berwick was there to report if any changes happened and if so give him the cure.

Hence why, when the demon dies, Eamon stays alive. He likely was never in any real danger. Demons and bum deals go hand in hand, it would seem.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:40 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

In 9:37, King Alistair confirms that Loghain still lives. It's only been 3 years so he better show up.

[In Exile]

Mr Maniac wrote...
Side note: the poison was non-fatal. While Eamon dying was a risk, and Loghain wouldn't have shed too many tears, Berwick was there to report if any changes happened and if so give him the cure.

Hence why, when the demon dies, Eamon stays alive. He likely was never in any real danger. Demons and bum deals go hand in hand, it would seem.

That's not what DG said:

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.

The last line is telling. It was attempted murder the very least. We can see that because a cure was required for recovery, that because a person had to watch and see if Eamon got worse and because dying was a possibility of getting worse, that saying that "he was never in any real danger" is just fantasy. It's attemped murder. 

Eamon was very much in "real danger". That's the whole reason the elf was there. 

To attempt murder, you don't need to intend actual death - you just need to intend harm and be reckless if toward death as a consequence. 

Modifié par In Exile, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:49 .

[Lavaeolus]

In Exile wrote...

The last line is telling. It was attempted murder the very least. We can see that because a cure was required for recovery, that because a person had to watch and see if Eamon got worse and because dying was a possibility of getting worse, that saying that "he was never in any real danger" is just fantasy. It's attemped murder. 

Eamon was very much in "real danger". That's the whole reason the elf was there. 

To attempt murder, you don't need to intend actual death - you just need to intend harm and be reckless if toward death as a consequence. 

I wasn't saying the poison wasn't dangerous, I'm just saying it wasn't an immediate "this demon can help us in any way" danger. I'm not saying Loghain is blameless and I'm not denying that reaks of recklessness, I'm just highlighting that the demon's offer was pretty ****.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 13 septembre 2013 - 08:02 .

[Former_Fiend]

MWImexico wrote...

At least, he should have try to save his king, if Cailan had survived, I'm pretty sure he would have understood his mistake and learn from it (like Maric did learn from his own mistakes). Even Cauthrien was ready to go into the battle, no one expected Loghain to simply go away. There are moments where justice doesn't seems so abstract and a décision must be taken, the public opinion is greatly shaken by those type of decisions (abandon the king or not, spare Loghain or not). I think a country works better if the peoples living in it can be assured that "some" justice exists, laws, etc. and that no one is above it (even if you are good at what you do).

Wynne makes a similar argument. Loghain counters that Wynne was right there and didn't try and save him, either. 

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally. Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

Modifié par Former_Fiend, 13 septembre 2013 - 08:36 .

[Martyr1777]

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

At least, he should have try to save his king, if Cailan had survived, I'm pretty sure he would have understood his mistake and learn from it (like Maric did learn from his own mistakes). Even Cauthrien was ready to go into the battle, no one expected Loghain to simply go away. There are moments where justice doesn't seems so abstract and a décision must be taken, the public opinion is greatly shaken by those type of decisions (abandon the king or not, spare Loghain or not). I think a country works better if the peoples living in it can be assured that "some" justice exists, laws, etc. and that no one is above it (even if you are good at what you do).

Wynne makes a similar argument. Loghain counters that Wynne was right there and didn't try and save him, either. 

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally. Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

This is exactly why I don't think Loghain was writen correctly  in the beginning of DA:O compared to the books.

During the rebellion Loghain and Rowan tooks stupid risks NUMEROUS times to save Maric. If Loghain had a better idea or beleived in Marics plans he never backed down, he hit Maric more then once and threated to start killing nobles at the Landsmeet when they didn't like Marics plans. Then in The Calling Maric had to lie to Loghain and sneak away because he know Loghain would never back down and willingly let him go.

So why is Loghain such a pushover in risking the safty of Fereldan and the kings death when he never would have stood for anything of the like during the rebellion.

In DAO They just didn't have the full scope of Loghain because the personalities are at complete odds with each other. So I think Loghain was a total idiot and traitorous in DAO, but I think the 'real' Loghain is a great character.

Back on the point of the thread though. I agree Loghain should be dead by the time of the Inquisition events. So he shouldn't make a showing.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 13 septembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[Sviken]

t

Plaintiff wrote...
Redemption from what? Pinning a murder notice on my head? Waging war on his fellow countrymen? Selling citizens into slavery?

There's not enough lipstick in the world for that pig.

Loghain is a character with all his flaws and successes and that's why I like him so much. He is not one-dimensional Wynne type of character. The Civil war was all a big misunderstanding. The Warden thought Loghain was just hungry for power and Loghain thought the Grey Warden's as people that shoudn't be trusted. Granted, Loghain was paranoid about Orlais, but can you really blame him? The Orlesians conquered Ferelden and practically enslaved the nation. How would you feel, if some country conquered your country, you break free forcibly from that nation and not so long after that, the nation that conquered your nation starts sending you help? I would think you would find that quite suspicious.

Also, the Civil war was instigated by Arl Eamon. Yes, Loghain didn't try to explain himself, but that's his flaw - he sucks at politics.

The slavery issue was because Ferelden was bankrupt and he needed the cash to fund his war against the Blight and against arl Eamon.

Btw, you can't blame Loghain for recruiting Howe. Howe was a treacherous snake, but at that moment Howe was the most powerful arl in Ferelden, having the most lands and wealth. If Loghain tried arresting Howe and taking his titles, what do you think would have happened? Howe would have rebelled and the civil war would have been even more bloody than it was. Also, Howe was quite a useful ally for the time being - he was smart, good at politics, had money, troops and could support Loghain's war effort.

You've got to understand, war is not some black and white thing - war itself is a crime and so Loghain tried to use every means at his disposal to save Ferelden. Could he have done better? Absolutely. But you can't blame him for everything.

[In Exile]

Mr Maniac wrote...
I wasn't saying the poison wasn't dangerous, I'm just saying it wasn't an immediate "this demon can help us in any way" danger. I'm not saying Loghain is blameless and I'm not denying that reaks of recklessness, I'm just highlighting that the demon's offer was pretty ****.

I apologize for missing that part of your post (the "Demons and bum deals go hand in hand, it would seem" part). 

I thought what you were saying was "the poison was non-fatal" and "[Eamon] likely was never in any real danger". That's the part I respondend to. 

[Lavaeolus]

In Exile wrote...

I apologize for missing that part of your post (the "Demons and bum deals go hand in hand, it would seem" part). 

I thought what you were saying was "[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">the poison was ][Eamon] likely was never in any real danger". That's the part I respondend to. [/color]

And my apologies for not being clear.