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[Former_Fiend]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

At least, he should have try to save his king, if Cailan had survived, I'm pretty sure he would have understood his mistake and learn from it (like Maric did learn from his own mistakes). Even Cauthrien was ready to go into the battle, no one expected Loghain to simply go away. There are moments where justice doesn't seems so abstract and a décision must be taken, the public opinion is greatly shaken by those type of decisions (abandon the king or not, spare Loghain or not). I think a country works better if the peoples living in it can be assured that "some" justice exists, laws, etc. and that no one is above it (even if you are good at what you do).

Wynne makes a similar argument. Loghain counters that Wynne was right there and didn't try and save him, either. 

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally. Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

This is exactly why I don't think Loghain was writen correctly  in the beginning of DA:O compared to the books.

During the rebellion Loghain and Rowan tooks stupid risks NUMEROUS times to save Maric. If Loghain had a better idea or beleived in Marics plans he never backed down, he hit Maric more then once and threated to start killing nobles at the Landsmeet when they didn't like Marics plans. Then in The Calling Maric had to lie to Loghain and sneak away because he know Loghain would never back down and willingly let him go.

So why is Loghain such a pushover in risking the safty of Fereldan and the kings death when he never would have stood for anything of the like during the rebellion.

In DAO They just didn't have the full scope of Loghain because the personalities are at complete odds with each other. So I think Loghain was a total idiot and traitorous in DAO, but I think the 'real' Loghain is a great character.

Back on the point of the thread though. I agree Loghain should be dead by the time of the Inquisition events. So he shouldn't make a showing.

I haven't read the Stolen Throne, mind you, but to me the take away here is that Loghain took stupid risks to save Maric, and Cailen is not Maric.  It's very clear that Loghain views Cailen as an inadaquite inheritor to Maric's legacy. The boy isn't worthy of the same loyalty from Loghain as his father was, at least in Loghain's eyes. 

The fact that Maric=/=Cailen is probably another reason why Loghain wasn't as adamant with Cailen as he was with Maric; with Maric, it was his good friend and he knew he could get away with it. With Cailen, sure, he may have been his father-in-law, but he was a distant figure in Cailen's life who Cailen obviously didn't have the same respect for. Loghain could be a hard ass with Maric because he knew Maric wouldn't do anything about it. Cailen very likely would have childishly refused to see Loghain's wisdom and simply dismissed him. If he had punched him, he may well have had him locked up.

And Loghain's doing more than threatening to kill nobles in Origins; he's actually doing it. He's throwing them into Howe's dungeons, he's holding their children hostage. He's playing every kind of hardball he can, and the fact is that without the Warden's interference, it would have worked. 

And we're going to disagree on that last point. If you don't like Loghain, or at least you don't like Loghain's depiction in the game, then don't spare him and you won't have to deal with him. For the rest of us, well, the only reason I wouldn't want to see Loghain in the game is if Simon Templeman is too busy making another Legacy of Kain game.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Loghain's too old. Mr. Gaider has said that 30 years is a high-end estimate. Those recruited during a blight live far shorter spans. Loghain was already an old man. It's unlikely the taint would've spared him the ten years between DAO and DAI.

[MWImexico]

Former_Fiend wrote...
...
This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

"Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day."

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

Edit : also I think you should read the stolen trone, you'll realise how much Maric was young and inexperienced too.

Modifié par MWImexico, 13 septembre 2013 - 10:45 .

[dragonflight288]

Mortis5 wrote...

t

Plaintiff wrote...
Redemption from what? Pinning a murder notice on my head? Waging war on his fellow countrymen? Selling citizens into slavery?

There's not enough lipstick in the world for that pig.

Loghain is a character with all his flaws and successes and that's why I like him so much. He is not one-dimensional Wynne type of character. The Civil war was all a big misunderstanding. The Warden thought Loghain was just hungry for power and Loghain thought the Grey Warden's as people that shoudn't be trusted. Granted, Loghain was paranoid about Orlais, but can you really blame him? The Orlesians conquered Ferelden and practically enslaved the nation. How would you feel, if some country conquered your country, you break free forcibly from that nation and not so long after that, the nation that conquered your nation starts sending you help? I would think you would find that quite suspicious.

Also, the Civil war was instigated by Arl Eamon. Yes, Loghain didn't try to explain himself, but that's his flaw - he sucks at politics.

The slavery issue was because Ferelden was bankrupt and he needed the cash to fund his war against the Blight and against arl Eamon.

Btw, you can't blame Loghain for recruiting Howe. Howe was a treacherous snake, but at that moment Howe was the most powerful arl in Ferelden, having the most lands and wealth. If Loghain tried arresting Howe and taking his titles, what do you think would have happened? Howe would have rebelled and the civil war would have been even more bloody than it was. Also, Howe was quite a useful ally for the time being - he was smart, good at politics, had money, troops and could support Loghain's war effort.

You've got to understand, war is not some black and white thing - war itself is a crime and so Loghain tried to use every means at his disposal to save Ferelden. Could he have done better? Absolutely. But you can't blame him for everything.

Going to correct something here. Loghain wasn't fighting a civil war against Teagan OR Eamon. They were out of the way. Eamon was poisoned by Loghain, and Howe was keeping track of it, but Eamon and Teagan weren't marshaling troops to fight Loghain. That was several other nobles. Loghain was fighting them for a year, and, depending on when the Warden heals Eamon, Eamon was building up his forces for the darkspawn, spreading rumors, and preparing the Landsmeet to settle the issue once and for all. Eamon never sent his troops to battle until after the Landsmeet, and that was to fight the darkspawn. And Teagan is the one who raised the issue of Loghain's withdrawal being fortuitous, and Loghain showed he's a poor politician as a result and ended up alienating the bannorn.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Loghain's too old. Mr. Gaider has said that 30 years is a high-end estimate. Those recruited during a blight live far shorter spans. Loghain was already an old man. It's unlikely the taint would've spared him the ten years between DAO and DAI.

What about the three since his last previous mention at being alive?

I think chances are decent he is still around.

[Former_Fiend]

MWImexico wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
...
This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

"Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day."

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

Edit : also I think you should read the stolen trone, you'll realise how much Maric was young and inexperienced too.

Loghain wasn't born a nobleman. He was born a commoner. The only people who cared about nobles solely because they were nobles were other nobles. 

But this goes beyond the simple truth that Cailen was arguably less valuable to the war effort than random soldier #419; the only thing either one is good for is putting sword to genlock, but at least Random Soldier #419 isn't sabatoging the war effort with his childish glory seeking. Cailen was selling Ferelden out to Orlais. As far as Loghain was concerned, either himself or Anora were far better suited for the job.

His rotten luck that the rest of the nobility valued blood over capability.

[Master Warder Z_]

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
...
This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

"Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day."

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

Edit : also I think you should read the stolen trone, you'll realise how much Maric was young and inexperienced too.

Loghain wasn't born a nobleman. He was born a commoner. The only people who cared about nobles solely because they were nobles were other nobles. 

But this goes beyond the simple truth that Cailen was arguably less valuable to the war effort than random soldier #419; the only thing either one is good for is putting sword to genlock, but at least Random Soldier #419 isn't sabatoging the war effort with his childish glory seeking. Cailen was selling Ferelden out to Orlais. As far as Loghain was concerned, either himself or Anora were far better suited for the job.

His rotten luck that the rest of the nobility valued blood over capability.

Indeed they would rather have a puppet king dictated by the Bannorn then a capble ruler of common blood.

That bloodline is so deeply ingrained into their culture by this point its no surprise but that doesn't magically make it logical either though. I am of the mindset rulers should be placed into position based upon ability not blood.

[The Elder King]

Even if the Fereldan king would've been chosen out of ability, Loghain wouldn't have been a good candidate, since he's not suited for being a rule (not that Alistair would've been a good choice, considering he was completely inexperienced). The field were Loghain excels is the military field, not the political one.
Based on the ability to rule alone (at least up to the Landsmeet point, since Alistair can become a good king), Anora is by far the best choice out of the three.

[Karlone123]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
...
This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

"Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day."

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

Edit : also I think you should read the stolen trone, you'll realise how much Maric was young and inexperienced too.

Loghain wasn't born a nobleman. He was born a commoner. The only people who cared about nobles solely because they were nobles were other nobles. 

But this goes beyond the simple truth that Cailen was arguably less valuable to the war effort than random soldier #419; the only thing either one is good for is putting sword to genlock, but at least Random Soldier #419 isn't sabatoging the war effort with his childish glory seeking. Cailen was selling Ferelden out to Orlais. As far as Loghain was concerned, either himself or Anora were far better suited for the job.

His rotten luck that the rest of the nobility valued blood over capability.

Indeed they would rather have a puppet king dictated by the Bannorn then a capble ruler of common blood.

That bloodline is so deeply ingrained into their culture by this point its no surprise but that doesn't magically make it logical either though. I am of the mindset rulers should be placed into position based upon ability not blood.

I dislike Arl Eamon's traditionalist view of keeping a Royal Bloodline as a rulership. A Royal bloodline is something people can rally behind in a crisis, but that does not involve everyone in Fereldan. As some people would consider Teryn Bryce Cousland a better king than Maric,

[Master Warder Z_]

Karlone123 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
...
This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

"Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day."

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

Edit : also I think you should read the stolen trone, you'll realise how much Maric was young and inexperienced too.

Loghain wasn't born a nobleman. He was born a commoner. The only people who cared about nobles solely because they were nobles were other nobles. 

But this goes beyond the simple truth that Cailen was arguably less valuable to the war effort than random soldier #419; the only thing either one is good for is putting sword to genlock, but at least Random Soldier #419 isn't sabatoging the war effort with his childish glory seeking. Cailen was selling Ferelden out to Orlais. As far as Loghain was concerned, either himself or Anora were far better suited for the job.

His rotten luck that the rest of the nobility valued blood over capability.

Indeed they would rather have a puppet king dictated by the Bannorn then a capble ruler of common blood.

That bloodline is so deeply ingrained into their culture by this point its no surprise but that doesn't magically make it logical either though. I am of the mindset rulers should be placed into position based upon ability not blood.

I dislike Arl Eamon's traditionalist view of keeping a Royal Bloodline as a rulership. A Royal bloodline is something people can rally behind in a crisis, but that does not involve everyone in Fereldan. As some people would consider Teryn Bryce Cousland a better king than Maric,

You mean some respected him enough to consider him a viable candiate  but the chances of him taking the throne were nil? I am aware of that line of gossip as well.

That said if being a popular noble and ruler were all you needed to secure the throne from the Landsmeet you would have had the Therin bloodline ended ages ago, You have had that same family sitting on the throne since the inception of the country.

[Karlone123]

hhh89 wrote...

Even if the Fereldan king would've been chosen out of ability, Loghain wouldn't have been a good candidate, since he's not suited for being a rule (not that Alistair would've been a good choice, considering he was completely inexperienced). The field were Loghain excels is the military field, not the political one.
Based on the ability to rule alone (at least up to the Landsmeet point, since Alistair can become a good king), Anora is by far the best choice out of the three.

Very much indeed, Loghain is a General by trade and a strategist by heart, and not a political man. Alistair has a noble heart but doesn't have the mind required for governance unlike Anora who is politically ruthless.

[Former_Fiend]

hhh89 wrote...

Even if the Fereldan king would've been chosen out of ability, Loghain wouldn't have been a good candidate, since he's not suited for being a rule (not that Alistair would've been a good choice, considering he was completely inexperienced). The field were Loghain excels is the military field, not the political one.
Based on the ability to rule alone (at least up to the Landsmeet point, since Alistair can become a good king), Anora is by far the best choice out of the three.

I absolutely agree.

Loghain completely miscalculated the fallout of his leaving Cailen. I'm not denying that or even trying to excuse it. I'm just saying that in his mind, he took a calculated risk to remove the fool king that was going to lead Ferelden to ruin.

[duckley]

Firstly, I think that while Alistair was reluctant to take the throne, he was very well educated and thus knowledgeable on many aspects of Ferelden society, culture, geography and religion. He also evidenced benevolent values towards the Dalish and Mages and had an engaging, down-to-earth everyday man approach to ruling (including sneaking off to the tavern to drink with the boys). He had an unabiding passion to duty even if it meant giving up the love of his life. Frankly I think Alistair had the makings of a very fine King!

Having said that, I think Anora would have made a reasonable ruler.

As for Loghain, well he was IMO a most dishonorable man who engaged in criminal and immoral behaviour. His strategy at Ostagar clearly did not succeed - so either he was a lousy general, or had no intention of allowing it to succeed, sealing the deaths of hundreds or more, including  Cailen and Duncan.

Some fans may find his character interesting and multidimensional, ( I am sure many brutes in history were interesting as people) but interesting or not, he deserved death or prison IMHO. I would love to see how Maric would respond to his good friend allowing his son to die.

While Cailen may have been a dreamer I am not sure he was doing a poor job ruling beside Anora. I don't recall anything in DAO to suggest he was a poor ruler. Even Anora wondered if reaching out to Orlais was something to consider. Loghain understandably hated Orlais, but not sure what he had against the Grey Wardens...

Loghain had a lot of influence as Anora's father but apparently that was not enough for him.. Cailen seemed interested in engaging with Dwarves, Elves, and Mages. Had his life not been cut short, who knows what he may have accomplished, particularly with Anora to counter-balance.

Modifié par duckley, 14 septembre 2013 - 12:57 .

[Master Warder Z_]

You know what always impressed me about Loghain? He was probably the Fourth Hardest single opponent in DAO and yet all he had going for him was the Champion Skill tree and an Iron Sword.

I must admit when i first recruited him and saw that was what he had been using to carve me up for about seven minutes my brow did raise and i gave him a small measure of respect for it.I mean this is the end game basically and he is using tier one equipment and still has a fair chance of winning.

At least in my Hard Play through as a Human Noble Warrior, As a rogue and Mage i had a much easier time with him but as a straight up frontline fighter it was basically two tanks going at it.

[Former_Fiend]

It honestly baffles me how few people seem to recognize the value of a tactical retreat.

[Master Warder Z_]

Former_Fiend wrote...

It honestly baffles me how few people seem to recognize the value of a tactical retreat.

Even Calian's Honor Guard realized that Ostagar was a doomed effort, He stated Calian knew there would be no victory there.

So why did the Army assemble there? Why did Loghain do to the efforts of mounting a viable and tactically sound (To his understanding of the situation) Defensive layout around the fortress.

I will tell you why, Calian ordered the Army to March and Loghain went down there as its commander despite pretty much every one in charge realizing this likely would be a one way trip even before the immense bulk of the Horde surfaced. Loghain planned for forces that outnummbered his own clearly, he had set up effective killzones to bleed off the advancing horde.

But again if they knew all this was for nought to begin with then why would Loghain a tactically sound commander commit to this action?

There is only one answer to that.

Calian made him; Loghain had a choice to make and i think he made the right one.

A doomed King who wanted to meet impossible odds with the Order of Legend and defeat a blight and the fool who led to this chain of events or the Army that would certainly be needed to secure the country and fight against the Horde.

Loghain made a hard choice for his Homeland but it was his to make.

[Xilizhra]

Loghain was well-intentioned, but also a cruel brute. He was a good general but an abysmal politician. He was a terrible regent, but might be a decent Grey Warden.

[Captain Obvious]

duckley wrote...

Firstly, I think that while Alistair was reluctant to take the throne, he was very well educated and thus knowledgeable on many aspects of Ferelden society, culture, geography and religion. He also evidenced benevolent values towards the Dalish and Mages and had an engaging, down-to-earth everyday man approach to ruling (including sneaking off to the tavern to drink with the boys). He had an unabiding passion to duty even if it meant giving up the love of his life. Frankly I think Alistair had the makings of a very fine King!

Having said that, I think Anora would have made a reasonable ruler.

As for Loghain, well he was IMO a most dishonorable man who engaged in criminal and immoral behaviour. His strategy at Ostagar clearly did not succeed - so either he was a lousy general, or had no intention of allowing it to succeed, sealing the deaths of hundreds or more, including  Cailen and Duncan.

Some fans may find his character interesting and multidimensional, ( I am sure many brutes in history were interesting as people) but interesting or not, he deserved death or prison IMHO. I would love to see how Maric would respond to his good friend allowing his son to die.

While Cailen may have been a dreamer I am not sure he was doing a poor job ruling beside Anora. I don't recall anything in DAO to suggest he was a poor ruler. Even Anora wondered if reaching out to Orlais was something to consider. Loghain understandably hated Orlais, but not sure what he had against the Grey Wardens...

Loghain had a lot of influence as Anora's father but apparently that was not enough for him.. Cailen seemed interested in engaging with Dwarves, Elves, and Mages. Had his life not been cut short, who knows what he may have accomplished, particularly with Anora to counter-balance.

It's not a matter about simply knowing Ferelden to be a good king. Kings have to deal with economics, different personalities, diplomacy, military duty, etc. Does Alistair even know any of these qualities? Nope. Doesn't matter if he's benevolent either if he doesn't have a good grasp of politics, otherwise he could become the puppet of the Bannorn or not know what to do in tough situations.

Also, which strategy at Ostagar did you talk about? Because the plan he talked about with Cailan wasn't the problem. The problem was that he couldn't know that there would be so many Darkspawn. As for him retreating, he saved what was left of the Ferelden army. I'd say that's pretty noble. 

On top of all of that, Loghain didn't have anything against the Grey Wardens. He simply criticized Cailan for putting so much faith in them, as if they would magically win the battle. Your sentence about Loghain's "influence as Anora's father" not being "enough of him" seems to imply that he did it for power. There is nothing to suggest that.

[The Hierophant]

Former_Fiend wrote...

It honestly baffles me how few people seem to recognize the value of a tactical retreat.

The army was screwed during their last battle as reinforcements were a week away, the Darkspawn outnumbered them, the darkspawn managed to field siege catapults that devastated the fortress's infrastructure, while the barely explored Tower of Ischal (major tactical blunder/oversight) allowed the darkspawn to flank Cailan's forces. If Loghain actually followed the plan, Cailan's and his armies would have been surrounded and crushed.

Despite his future shenanigans, Loghain was smart to retreat.

[Martyr1777]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

At least, he should have try to save his king, if Cailan had survived, I'm pretty sure he would have understood his mistake and learn from it (like Maric did learn from his own mistakes). Even Cauthrien was ready to go into the battle, no one expected Loghain to simply go away. There are moments where justice doesn't seems so abstract and a décision must be taken, the public opinion is greatly shaken by those type of decisions (abandon the king or not, spare Loghain or not). I think a country works better if the peoples living in it can be assured that "some" justice exists, laws, etc. and that no one is above it (even if you are good at what you do).

Wynne makes a similar argument. Loghain counters that Wynne was right there and didn't try and save him, either. 

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally. Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

This tells me that Loghain's decision was not one that was made lightly. Even if he had succeeded, which isn't a guarentee, the cost might have been so high that there wouldn't be enough men left to give Ferelden a fighting chance. 

And Cailen might have learned his lesson, but that's a big might. He strikes me as more the type that would take away "I can do whatever stupid thing I want and Loghain will come bail me out" as the moral. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but I guarentee you that's what Loghain figured. And he decided that the lives of his men weren't worth risking on some notion of being honor bound to save this particular card carrying member of the Lucky Sperm Club.

This is exactly why I don't think Loghain was writen correctly  in the beginning of DA:O compared to the books.

During the rebellion Loghain and Rowan tooks stupid risks NUMEROUS times to save Maric. If Loghain had a better idea or beleived in Marics plans he never backed down, he hit Maric more then once and threated to start killing nobles at the Landsmeet when they didn't like Marics plans. Then in The Calling Maric had to lie to Loghain and sneak away because he know Loghain would never back down and willingly let him go.

So why is Loghain such a pushover in risking the safty of Fereldan and the kings death when he never would have stood for anything of the like during the rebellion.

In DAO They just didn't have the full scope of Loghain because the personalities are at complete odds with each other. So I think Loghain was a total idiot and traitorous in DAO, but I think the 'real' Loghain is a great character.

Back on the point of the thread though. I agree Loghain should be dead by the time of the Inquisition events. So he shouldn't make a showing.

I haven't read the Stolen Throne, mind you, but to me the take away here is that Loghain took stupid risks to save Maric, and Cailen is not Maric.  It's very clear that Loghain views Cailen as an inadaquite inheritor to Maric's legacy. The boy isn't worthy of the same loyalty from Loghain as his father was, at least in Loghain's eyes. 

The fact that Maric=/=Cailen is probably another reason why Loghain wasn't as adamant with Cailen as he was with Maric; with Maric, it was his good friend and he knew he could get away with it. With Cailen, sure, he may have been his father-in-law, but he was a distant figure in Cailen's life who Cailen obviously didn't have the same respect for. Loghain could be a hard ass with Maric because he knew Maric wouldn't do anything about it. Cailen very likely would have childishly refused to see Loghain's wisdom and simply dismissed him. If he had punched him, he may well have had him locked up.

And Loghain's doing more than threatening to kill nobles in Origins; he's actually doing it. He's throwing them into Howe's dungeons, he's holding their children hostage. He's playing every kind of hardball he can, and the fact is that without the Warden's interference, it would have worked. 

And we're going to disagree on that last point. If you don't like Loghain, or at least you don't like Loghain's depiction in the game, then don't spare him and you won't have to deal with him. For the rest of us, well, the only reason I wouldn't want to see Loghain in the game is if Simon Templeman is too busy making another Legacy of Kain game.

You really need to read the books, very badly, Loghain is literally a different person. (plus its a good read for any DA fan)

Buts not about Maric =/= Cailen. Because if you read it Maric is almost worse then Cailen. Don't want to spoil it to badly but there are points lLoghain flat out says to Maric he's saving the life of the King of Ferelden, not Maric's because the land needs its king to be free.  And the reason he was threatening nobles was because they were going against that king while discussing the rebellion. Basically he was making them take their side out of fear instead of siding with the Orlisians. That Loghain would have killed Howe himself for killing a loyal house especially with the darkspawn threat.

I never liked Loghain in DAO, despised I couldn't kill him when I wanted to make my Warden Prince-Consort. But he's an amazing character in the books. Still that rough fiery commoner but he has truely good purpose driving it. In DAO he's just a usurper, letting his King die for no reason, siding with Howe (who no one can argue wasn't a traitor), and seizing the throne. Something the book Loghain wouldn't even consider (Maric probably only got him to become Teryn at sword point).

[TEWR]

MWImexico wrote...


So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

It would've fallen to Cailan, the king, to name a successor for the Landsmeet to agree upon. Either his capable wife Anora or his half-brother Alistair (it's known that Cailan kept tabs on Alistair and also wanted him out of the main part of the battle).

It was Cailan's responsibility, yet he couldn't even get that right. All he would've had to do is write a simple parchment saying "Hey, if I die and since I'm heirless, so-and-so is my successor."

Loghain tried time and time again to get Cailan to keep his ass off the field, but the spoiled manchild refused to listen.

And bear in mind that a lot of people, Loghain and Cailan included, weren't certain of the Blight's veracity. To them, it didn't constitute a war but rather just a big nuisance. Despite that, Loghain made certain to fill the void left by Cailan's demise with his daughter and him, hoping that the Bannorn would not tear itself apart with political squabbling.

The sad thing is that his actions stoked the very fire he was trying desperately to put out.

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

From Loghain's perspective, there were valid reasons to consider the Wardens guilty of some form of betrayal. Not a clear-cut "They turned their blades on the king" but rather their actions (and also their lack of certain actions) did not seem to cast them in a favorable light.

[Former_Fiend]

Martyr1777 wrote...


You really need to read the books, very badly, Loghain is literally a different person. (plus its a good read for any DA fan)

Buts not about Maric =/= Cailen. Because if you read it Maric is almost worse then Cailen. Don't want to spoil it to badly but there are points lLoghain flat out says to Maric he's saving the life of the King of Ferelden, not Maric's because the land needs its king to be free.  And the reason he was threatening nobles was because they were going against that king while discussing the rebellion. Basically he was making them take their side out of fear instead of siding with the Orlisians. That Loghain would have killed Howe himself for killing a loyal house especially with the darkspawn threat.

I never liked Loghain in DAO, despised I couldn't kill him when I wanted to make my Warden Prince-Consort. But he's an amazing character in the books. Still that rough fiery commoner but he has truely good purpose driving it. In DAO he's just a usurper, letting his King die for no reason, siding with Howe (who no one can argue wasn't a traitor), and seizing the throne. Something the book Loghain wouldn't even consider (Maric probably only got him to become Teryn at sword point).

Honestly I'm not sure I want to with that description. I mean, over all I like the description of Loghain, but the description of Maric was really turning me off. I've read The Calling and hated it, largely because of how bland and unlikable Maric was(but mostly because of Fiona). I was really hoping that was just the result of him being in a funk due to the events of The Stolen Throne.

But at the end of the day, I have a hard time liking anyone who supports a king just because he's king. If he's a good king, sure. But if he's just the lucky sperm cell that got the job, kill him and find someone better.

[Xilizhra]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...


You really need to read the books, very badly, Loghain is literally a different person. (plus its a good read for any DA fan)

Buts not about Maric =/= Cailen. Because if you read it Maric is almost worse then Cailen. Don't want to spoil it to badly but there are points lLoghain flat out says to Maric he's saving the life of the King of Ferelden, not Maric's because the land needs its king to be free.  And the reason he was threatening nobles was because they were going against that king while discussing the rebellion. Basically he was making them take their side out of fear instead of siding with the Orlisians. That Loghain would have killed Howe himself for killing a loyal house especially with the darkspawn threat.

I never liked Loghain in DAO, despised I couldn't kill him when I wanted to make my Warden Prince-Consort. But he's an amazing character in the books. Still that rough fiery commoner but he has truely good purpose driving it. In DAO he's just a usurper, letting his King die for no reason, siding with Howe (who no one can argue wasn't a traitor), and seizing the throne. Something the book Loghain wouldn't even consider (Maric probably only got him to become Teryn at sword point).

Honestly I'm not sure I want to with that description. I mean, over all I like the description of Loghain, but the description of Maric was really turning me off. I've read The Calling and hated it, largely because of how bland and unlikable Maric was(but mostly because of Fiona). I was really hoping that was just the result of him being in a funk due to the events of The Stolen Throne.

But at the end of the day, I have a hard time liking anyone who supports a king just because he's king. If he's a good king, sure. But if he's just the lucky sperm cell that got the job, kill him and find someone better.

It's not about nobility for its own sake, but about, well, avoiding succession crises in a time of Blight.

[Spectre slayer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Loghain's too old. Mr. Gaider has said that 30 years is a high-end estimate. Those recruited during a blight live far shorter spans. Loghain was already an old man. It's unlikely the taint would've spared him the ten years between DAO and DAI.

What about the three since his last previous mention at being alive?

I think chances are decent he is still around.

He could be dead already but that depends on how much willpower he has and how long he can hold off his calling according to Gaider it can be anywhere from 5 years to a 30 year maximum and Alistair quote shouldn't be taken as fact.

DG: It's something I put in Alistair's dialogue that I now regret! Afterwards I was like, "Wow, thirty years is a long time for that time frame." I didn't really intend when I was writing it, and only afterwards when I went back I said "Oh...I guess it does sort of implies thirty years after you take the Calling, doesn't it..." Sorry, after you take the Joining. That wasn't really my intention.

But it's out there now so I'm like, okay, thirty years. But the idea is also that it varies. Thirty years is the maximum that you could probably expect. It's going to vary for an individual according to their willpower and the level of their interaction with the darkspawn.

During a Blight you can expect that the Grey Wardens are going to have shorter lifespans. Outside of a Blight the Grey Wardens would tend to live longer. We have instances in the game of people going on their Calling after five or ten years. Alistair's thirty year quote shouldn't be taken as gospel, that's the way I like it. 

DG: Well, if Duncan was thirty years old, he would look pretty good for thirty. Yeah, so it's supposed to be a maximum thirty years after you take the [Joining] but it can vary, so I'd say the rule of thumb right now is between ten and thirty years, is the most common.

 


He's already pushing it as it is since it's been about 10-11 years already and due to how old he is,  though he might still be alive but we'll have to wait and see.

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 14 septembre 2013 - 01:55 .

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...


You really need to read the books, very badly, Loghain is literally a different person. (plus its a good read for any DA fan)

Buts not about Maric =/= Cailen. Because if you read it Maric is almost worse then Cailen. Don't want to spoil it to badly but there are points lLoghain flat out says to Maric he's saving the life of the King of Ferelden, not Maric's because the land needs its king to be free.  And the reason he was threatening nobles was because they were going against that king while discussing the rebellion. Basically he was making them take their side out of fear instead of siding with the Orlisians. That Loghain would have killed Howe himself for killing a loyal house especially with the darkspawn threat.

I never liked Loghain in DAO, despised I couldn't kill him when I wanted to make my Warden Prince-Consort. But he's an amazing character in the books. Still that rough fiery commoner but he has truely good purpose driving it. In DAO he's just a usurper, letting his King die for no reason, siding with Howe (who no one can argue wasn't a traitor), and seizing the throne. Something the book Loghain wouldn't even consider (Maric probably only got him to become Teryn at sword point).

Honestly I'm not sure I want to with that description. I mean, over all I like the description of Loghain, but the description of Maric was really turning me off. I've read The Calling and hated it, largely because of how bland and unlikable Maric was(but mostly because of Fiona). I was really hoping that was just the result of him being in a funk due to the events of The Stolen Throne.

But at the end of the day, I have a hard time liking anyone who supports a king just because he's king. If he's a good king, sure. But if he's just the lucky sperm cell that got the job, kill him and find someone better.

It's not about nobility for its own sake, but about, well, avoiding succession crises in a time of Blight.

Well, as was pointed out above, that's no one's fault but Cailen's. The dude was leading troops from the front lines against an enemy that turns the very air you breath toxic, against everyone's advice, and he didn't have the sense to name a successor.

This is a clear example of Loghain's failure as a politician, though. He thought that the nobles will fall in line behind Anora and that Anora would fall in line behind him. That didn't happen, hence his miscalculation. I'm not denying that was a huge mistake, I'm just sympathetic towards his reasoning.