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[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MWImexico wrote...


So its normal if soldiers die on the battlefield defending Fereleden but, ensure the king is safe and the country doesn't ends up suddenly without a ruler is not so important?
Back in time, society worked like that, an heir was needed or it was chaos. I think a country left without his leader right in the middle of a war (blight) is not a fine strategical action, to say the least.

It would've fallen to Cailan, the king, to name a successor for the Landsmeet to agree upon. Either his capable wife Anora or his half-brother Alistair (it's known that Cailan kept tabs on Alistair and also wanted him out of the main part of the battle).

It was Cailan's responsibility, yet he couldn't even get that right. All he would've had to do is write a simple parchment saying "Hey, if I die and since I'm heirless, so-and-so is my successor."

Loghain tried time and time again to get Cailan to keep his ass off the field, but the spoiled manchild refused to listen.

And bear in mind that a lot of people, Loghain and Cailan included, weren't certain of the Blight's veracity. To them, it didn't constitute a war but rather just a big nuisance. Despite that, Loghain made certain to fill the void left by Cailan's demise with his daughter and him, hoping that the Bannorn would not tear itself apart with political squabbling.

The sad thing is that his actions stoked the very fire he was trying desperately to put out.

What he lost that day? Funny. And all the wardens who were accused of betrayal that day say hi.

From Loghain's perspective, there were valid reasons to consider the Wardens guilty of some form of betrayal. Not a clear-cut "They turned their blades on the king" but rather their actions (and also their lack of certain actions) did not seem to cast them in a favorable light.

Ah.  I was wondering how long this would take.   

[Xilizhra]

So Cailan failed militarily and Loghain failed politically. I'm not really impressed with either one.

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

So Cailan failed militarily and Loghain failed politically. I'm not really impressed with either one.

Well, I'd argue that Cailan failed in general, but for the most part, yea.

Thing is, recruting Loghain to the wardens is taking him out of politics and putting him somewhere where he can be useful.

[Xilizhra]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So Cailan failed militarily and Loghain failed politically. I'm not really impressed with either one.

Well, I'd argue that Cailan failed in general, but for the most part, yea.

Thing is, recruting Loghain to the wardens is taking him out of politics and putting him somewhere where he can be useful.

Don't get me wrong, I did recruit him myself; I prefer not to kill people when possible. However, the Alienage situation was absolutely indefensible and a symptom of his not considering the elves Lordaeron's people. I would prefer for people to stop remembering him as a hero, and I would never have him do the Archdemon kill (not that it's necessary, as I always do the DR, but still).

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So Cailan failed militarily and Loghain failed politically. I'm not really impressed with either one.

Well, I'd argue that Cailan failed in general, but for the most part, yea.

Thing is, recruting Loghain to the wardens is taking him out of politics and putting him somewhere where he can be useful.

Don't get me wrong, I did recruit him myself; I prefer not to kill people when possible. However, the Alienage situation was absolutely indefensible and a symptom of his not considering the elves Lordaeron's people. I would prefer for people to stop remembering him as a hero, and I would never have him do the Archdemon kill (not that it's necessary, as I always do the DR, but still).

Your achievements are nothing if you did not turn your city into a welfare state to support a bunch of weaklings in the alienage. 

[Xilizhra]

If you betray your people, yes.

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you betray your people, yes.

So now it's about his oppurtunism with the Blight. 

Totally irrelevant to the alienage.

[Xilizhra]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you betray your people, yes.

So now it's about his oppurtunism with the Blight. 

Totally irrelevant to the alienage.

The Alienage was the prime instance of him betraying his people.

[Martyr1777]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...


You really need to read the books, very badly, Loghain is literally a different person. (plus its a good read for any DA fan)

Buts not about Maric =/= Cailen. Because if you read it Maric is almost worse then Cailen. Don't want to spoil it to badly but there are points lLoghain flat out says to Maric he's saving the life of the King of Ferelden, not Maric's because the land needs its king to be free.  And the reason he was threatening nobles was because they were going against that king while discussing the rebellion. Basically he was making them take their side out of fear instead of siding with the Orlisians. That Loghain would have killed Howe himself for killing a loyal house especially with the darkspawn threat.

I never liked Loghain in DAO, despised I couldn't kill him when I wanted to make my Warden Prince-Consort. But he's an amazing character in the books. Still that rough fiery commoner but he has truely good purpose driving it. In DAO he's just a usurper, letting his King die for no reason, siding with Howe (who no one can argue wasn't a traitor), and seizing the throne. Something the book Loghain wouldn't even consider (Maric probably only got him to become Teryn at sword point).

Honestly I'm not sure I want to with that description. I mean, over all I like the description of Loghain, but the description of Maric was really turning me off. I've read The Calling and hated it, largely because of how bland and unlikable Maric was(but mostly because of Fiona). I was really hoping that was just the result of him being in a funk due to the events of The Stolen Throne.

But at the end of the day, I have a hard time liking anyone who supports a king just because he's king. If he's a good king, sure. But if he's just the lucky sperm cell that got the job, kill him and find someone better.

Well I'm trying not to say to much. I'm only half way through Calling but of the three I think its not very good. Asunder was great and Stolen Throne very good to me.

The end of Stolen Throne goes a LONG way to explaining why Maric was like that, wasn't just Rowan dieing, its fairly deep. And yeah, I can't stand Fiona.

As far as Loghain just supporting the lucky sperm cell... well you have to consider due to the way they meet, in the beginning, Loghain wants nothing more to kill Maric himself. But its Loghain fierce loyalty, first to him father then the land and inthe end to Maric the friend (not the king), that stops him. The relationship has alot going on really.

As for being worse as a king, thats not what I mean. You have to keep in mind Maric 'leading' the rebellion starts when he's still fairly young and juzt witnesses his mother killed. He had alot of growing up to do. But, for me, I liked his character. It had some depth to it and he was human. From both books I see Maric not as a king but a man and I think thats how he sees himself but everyone around him sees him as a king, a savior, etc... sh*tloads of pressure. Except Loghain, they were always just two men to each other. Loghain was only saving 'the king' not the man in the beginning out of duty to the LAND because he knew how the others viewed Maric. But Maric I thought was likeable for his faults not inspite of them.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you betray your people, yes.

So now it's about his oppurtunism with the Blight. 

Totally irrelevant to the alienage.

The Alienage was the prime instance of him betraying his people.

I could understand you saying Cailan, but that is a laughable assertion.

First off, the Alienage had always been a dump. It's not like Loghain walked up and said, "Hey, let's let them all live in a trash hole!"

Next, the whole slavery thing is a stretch but defensible. The Elves provided little real contribution to anything, and were all practical purposes more of a liability than an asset. So, someone shows up and says "I know how to get rid of this liability, and at the same time turn it into an asset!" he'd be foolish to do anything else than jump at the oppurtunity.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Silfren]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If you betray your people, yes.

So now it's about his oppurtunism with the Blight. 

Totally irrelevant to the alienage.

The Alienage was the prime instance of him betraying his people.

I could understand you saying Cailan, but that is a laughable assertion.

First off, the Alienage had always been a dump. It's not like Loghain walked up and said, "Hey, let's let them all live in a trash hole!"

Next, the whole slavery thing is a stretch but defensible. The Elves provided little real contribution to anything, and were all practical purposes more of a liability than an asset. So, someone shows up and says "I know how to get rid of this liability, and at the same time turn it into an asset!" he'd be foolish to do anything else than jump at the oppurtunity.

1) If you do nothing to try to make the lives of your citizens better, you are quite the failure, yes.  It is not the fault of the alienage elves that Humans see them as gutter trash.  No amount of bootstrap yanking is going to help when the dominant class sees you as worthless.  

2)Loghain isn't shown to have any particular contempt for elves, as far as I recall; it's not unreasonable to think he would find slavery of any sort reprehensible, especially if it is actually true that he sees the alienage elves as Ferelden citizens.  If we accept that he sucks as a politician, then it hardly makes sense that he would have an attack of political cost/benefit analysis and decide that selling the elves into slavery is something that can't be helped.  His dismissal of the slavery issue never did make sense in light of his established character. But then, neither did a lot of it, beyond the simple fact of his suspicion of Orlais. Moreover, he was foolish about a lot of things, directly hinging on the fact that he has zero understanding of politics.  Why would he be expected to have it in this regard?

Modifié par Silfren, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:33 .

[In Exile]

Former_Fiend wrote...

It honestly baffles me how few people seem to recognize the value of a tactical retreat.

Leaving half your army to die in a plan that you concocted because your previous tactic failed so miserably to account for the possibility that enemy numbers were greater than you predicted when all of your scouts died isn't a "tactical retreat" it's "running away from your screw up". 

The reason Loghain had to abandon at least 50% of his forces was that the way he drew up his plan, those forces were automatically dead if the darkspawn had greater numbers. 

[In Exile]

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Also, which strategy at Ostagar did you talk about? Because the plan he talked about with Cailan wasn't the problem. The problem was that he couldn't know that there would be so many Darkspawn. As for him retreating, he saved what was left of the Ferelden army. I'd say that's pretty noble.

Scouting is the most basic and fundamental tactic in existence. If his scouts returned dead and he had no idea what the darkspawn numbers were, drafting a plan that only works with numerical superiority is stupid. He had (i) no contingency plan for superior numbers, (ii) no back-up plan if the darkspawn took the Tower of Ishal (and he knew there were tunnels underneath), (iii) no back-up plan for how to retreat 50% of his forces if they were overwhelmed... 

The Ferelden army had to be abandoned because of how bad at war Loghain was. 

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And bear in mind that a lot of people, Loghain and Cailan included, weren't certain of the Blight's veracity. To them, it didn't constitute a war but rather just a big nuisance. Despite that, Loghain made certain to fill the void left by Cailan's demise with his daughter and him, hoping that the Bannorn would not tear itself apart with political squabbling.

No. Loghain returned under mysterius circumstances, declared himself regent (or king, if we take the messenger outside of Orzammar as not being b0rked dialogue), and demanded that the bannorn swear fealty to him. He did not approach any of the respect lords and nobles who rallied behind Cailan to support him and instead had them poisoned and then gave absolute political power to someone who had just murdered Bryce Cousland and stole his lands. 

To say that he "filled the void" is just divorced from reality. To any and all outward appearance, he blatantly attempted to usurp Cailan's throne and consolidated power with other usurpers. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:45 .

[Volus Warlord]

Silfren wrote...
1) If you do nothing to try to make the lives of your citizens better, you are quite the failure, yes.  It is not the fault of the alienage elves that Humans see them as gutter trash.  No amount of bootstrap yanking is going to help when the dominant class sees you as worthless.  

2)Loghain isn't shown to have any particular contempt for elves, as far as I recall; it's not unreasonable to think he would find slavery of any sort reprehensible, especially if it is actually true that he sees the alienage elves as Ferelden citizens.  If we accept that he sucks as a politician, then it hardly makes sense that he would have an attack of political cost/benefit analysis and decide that selling the elves into slavery is something that can't be helped.  His dismissal of the slavery issue never did make sense in light of his established character. But then, neither did a lot of it, beyond the simple fact of his suspicion of Orlais. Moreover, he was foolish about a lot of things, directly hinging on the fact that he has zero understanding of politics.  Why would he be expected to have it in this regard?

1.) Not necessarily. You can be a very effective leader and not care about the quality of life of your citizenry. There are numerous other concerns than "Citizen Jim isn't happy right now! Someone get on it!" Besides, he had other concerns than a walled off dump in the center of town.

2.) Liabilities and assets are military as well as political.  He was not a military idiot. Couldn't he see the military liability of the elves?

[Captain Obvious]

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Also, which strategy at Ostagar did you talk about? Because the plan he talked about with Cailan wasn't the problem. The problem was that he couldn't know that there would be so many Darkspawn. As for him retreating, he saved what was left of the Ferelden army. I'd say that's pretty noble.

Scouting is the most basic and fundamental tactic in existence. If his scouts returned dead and he had no idea what the darkspawn numbers were, drafting a plan that only works with numerical superiority is stupid. He had (i) no contingency plan for superior numbers, (ii) no back-up plan if the darkspawn took the Tower of Ishal (and he knew there were tunnels underneath), (iii) no back-up plan for how to retreat 50% of his forces if they were overwhelmed... 

The Ferelden army had to be abandoned because of how bad at war Loghain was. 

Thing is, there are many ways that the Darkspawn could avoid hiding the specifics of their numbers. They could have easily divided themselves into smaller groups and spread themselves out rather than put themselves into one singular mass, for the starters. As for the continegency plans, what could he do? Cailan wanted a battle even though it was best to retreat right then, even despite how unprepared they were. Loghain could only work with what he had. Plus, again, there comes the problem about not knowing the full strength of the enemy.

Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:46 .

[In Exile]

Volus Warlord wrote...
2.) Liabilities and assets are military as well as political.  He was not a military idiot. Couldn't he see the military liability of the elves?

Given that it takes 1 Warden + 3 companions and some military forces to hold off all darkspawn assaults on the alienage, it seems that this is just another situation of Loghain failing miserably at war. 

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So Cailan failed militarily and Loghain failed politically. I'm not really impressed with either one.

Well, I'd argue that Cailan failed in general, but for the most part, yea.

Thing is, recruting Loghain to the wardens is taking him out of politics and putting him somewhere where he can be useful.

Don't get me wrong, I did recruit him myself; I prefer not to kill people when possible. However, the Alienage situation was absolutely indefensible and a symptom of his not considering the elves Lordaeron's people. I would prefer for people to stop remembering him as a hero, and I would never have him do the Archdemon kill (not that it's necessary, as I always do the DR, but still).

Been playing Warcraft lately?

[Volus Warlord]

In Exile wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
2.) Liabilities and assets are military as well as political.  He was not a military idiot. Couldn't he see the military liability of the elves?

Given that it takes 1 Warden + 3 companions and some military forces to hold off all darkspawn assaults on the alienage, it seems that this is just another situation of Loghain failing miserably at war. 

Irrelevant. That was just the game's "I'm an epic hero" moment. 

In no way does it depict the actuality of war.

[Captain Obvious]

In Exile wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
2.) Liabilities and assets are military as well as political.  He was not a military idiot. Couldn't he see the military liability of the elves?

Given that it takes 1 Warden + 3 companions and some military forces to hold off all darkspawn assaults on the alienage, it seems that this is just another situation of Loghain failing miserably at war. 

You have to take into account the game mechanics and the fact that the Darkspawn seemed to have this Death Star-like weakness that was the Archdemon. Defeat it, and they've basically won the battle.

[In Exile]

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Thing is, there are many ways that the Darkspawn could avoid hiding the specifics of their numbers. They could have easily divide themselves into smaller groups and spread themselves out rather than put themselves into one singular mass.

I didn't say Loghain should have divined up their numbers from the ether. I said that he was an idiot for devising a plan that only worked if he had numerical superiority and was a death trap for half his forces if he didn't. 

This is on the level of attacking tanks with spears level of incompetent. 

As for the continegency plans, what could he do? Cailan wanted a battle even though it was best to retreat right then, even despite how unprepared they were.

Here's one thing he could do. Let's imagine that Ostagar looked like this:

[obstruction] [ostagar] [obstruction].

His army was arranged like this:

[obstruction][Cailan][obstruction].
                      [spawn]

To control for his potentially inferior numbers, he could have done this:

                      [Cailan]
[obstruction][spawn][obstruction].

Then Loghain either had the option to pincer the darkspawn if numbers were favourable or otherwise give Cailan's men a chance to funnel the troops to them and retreat by rigging the structure at Ostagar to collapse through, for example, the use of magic. 

He could have controlled for the problem at the Tower of Ishal by having magic do its job.

He could have done lots of things.
                      

Loghain could only work with what he had. Plus, again, there comes the problem about not knowing the full strength of the enemy.

Adapting to the enemy when their numbers are unknown is a basic job for a general!

[In Exile]

Volus Warlord wrote...
Irrelevant. That was just the game's "I'm an epic hero" moment. 

In no way does it depict the actuality of war.

The game ended at Denerim. The Warden killed the archdemon and crushed darkspawn skulls like candy. That's the game and it's an ironclad part of the lore. You can try and scream at reality if you like, but it doesn't change it. The Alienage was defended and the elves lived. End of story. 

Cap. Obvious wrote...
You have to take into account the game mechanics and the fact that the Darkspawn seemed to have this Death Star-like weakness that was the Archdemon. Defeat it, and they've basically won the battle.

And who's fault is it that Loghain didn't know that? Partly it was that Duncan was also an idiot and kept it to himself. But given his irrational distain of all things Grey Warden, would Loghain have even listened to a thing Duncan said? 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Volus Warlord]

In Exile wrote...

Cap. Obvious wrote...
Thing is, there are many ways that the Darkspawn could avoid hiding the specifics of their numbers. They could have easily divide themselves into smaller groups and spread themselves out rather than put themselves into one singular mass.

I didn't say Loghain should have divined up their numbers from the ether. I said that he was an idiot for devising a plan that only worked if he had numerical superiority and was a death trap for half his forces if he didn't. 

This is on the level of attacking tanks with spears level of incompetent. 

As for the continegency plans, what could he do? Cailan wanted a battle even though it was best to retreat right then, even despite how unprepared they were.

Here's one thing he could do. Let's imagine that Ostagar looked like this:

[obstruction] [ostagar] [obstruction].

His army was arranged like this:

[obstruction][Cailan][obstruction].
                      [spawn]

To control for his potentially inferior numbers, he could have done this:

                      [Cailan]
[obstruction][spawn][obstruction].

Then Loghain either had the option to pincer the darkspawn if numbers were favourable or otherwise give Cailan's men a chance to funnel the troops to them and retreat by rigging the structure at Ostagar to collapse through, for example, the use of magic. 

He could have controlled for the problem at the Tower of Ishal by having magic do its job.

He could have done lots of things.
                      

Loghain could only work with what he had. Plus, again, there comes the problem about not knowing the full strength of the enemy.

Adapting to the enemy when their numbers are unknown is a basic job for a general!

Brutal oversimplification on top of brutal oversimplification.

And adapting to unknown numbers is something even the best generals can struggle with.

[Silfren]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Silfren wrote...
1) If you do nothing to try to make the lives of your citizens better, you are quite the failure, yes.  It is not the fault of the alienage elves that Humans see them as gutter trash.  No amount of bootstrap yanking is going to help when the dominant class sees you as worthless.  

2)Loghain isn't shown to have any particular contempt for elves, as far as I recall; it's not unreasonable to think he would find slavery of any sort reprehensible, especially if it is actually true that he sees the alienage elves as Ferelden citizens.  If we accept that he sucks as a politician, then it hardly makes sense that he would have an attack of political cost/benefit analysis and decide that selling the elves into slavery is something that can't be helped.  His dismissal of the slavery issue never did make sense in light of his established character. But then, neither did a lot of it, beyond the simple fact of his suspicion of Orlais. Moreover, he was foolish about a lot of things, directly hinging on the fact that he has zero understanding of politics.  Why would he be expected to have it in this regard?

1.) Not necessarily. You can be a very effective leader and not care about the quality of life of your citizenry. There are numerous other concerns than "Citizen Jim isn't happy right now! Someone get on it!" Besides, he had other concerns than a walled off dump in the center of town.

2.) Liabilities and assets are military as well as political.  He was not a military idiot. Couldn't he see the military liability of the elves?

I didn't say anything about being an effective leader.  I said you are a failure if you don't try to improve the lives of your citizens.  I don't care if you're damn good at managing your nation's coffers, or at imperialistic expansion, or keeping other nations from threatening your sovereignty, or any of those things or all of them.  If a number of your citizens lives are ****, and you make no effort to change this, you are a failure.  This is my opinion; if you disagree, fine, but you don't get to try to invalidate my own take on the matter by changing the goalposts.

[In Exile]

Volus Warlord wrote...
Brutal oversimplification on top of brutal oversimplification.

Given that the "brilliant" strategist Loghain had a two step plan that involved: (i) assume you have superior numbers to darkspawn and (ii) flank them, my description is of such a level of genius that it would be a supercomputer compared to Loghain's cave painting. 

His plan literally was this:

[obstruction][Ostgar][obstruction]
                      [Cailan]
                      [spawn][Loghain] 
                                   
That was the entire plan! 

And adapting to unknown numbers is something even the best generals can struggle with. 

Assuming you have numerical superiority isn't "adapting" it's "stupidity".